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Strategy - Hellfire So, time we had a discussion about Hellfire

shura30

Shura
Please don't turn this into a 'who's the best hellfire' thread
we all know Raptor and his recent placement at KIT, most already know Frozenacid/Black and the EU surely knows Murko's dominance in esl cups and private sets aswell

but I'd like the discussion to focus on the character, not the players
a few random threads I'd like for everyone to discuss on:

- Scorpion is one of if not the best variationless character
- hellfire is safe, can't be zoned, can apply safe pressure upclose and can keep the opponent in check from everywhere on screen
- flame aura
- incredible damage output and meterbuilding.
- this meta's a-list?
- hellfire can 30% to 45% from literally anything into a restand and more 50/50 safe pressure
- increased flame aura grab damage AND a tremorish ground unblockable
- F2 or b32F2 are safe-ish (the second one due to a glitch apparently) overhead HKD enders for scary oki
- 6 frames d1 (altough punishable)
- d4's range
- standing 3xxFBC for punishes
- he doesn't give the opponent enough meter while applying huge damage
- whiff 6 frame jump kick into teleport
- teleport can be cancelled both upclose and far from the opponent, in most situations a free escape
 

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
Premium Supporter
2 guaranteed Restands
Don't forget his throw! He has one of the best throws in the game, he has enough frame adv to dash up and normal meaty you lol
In the corner he gets a safe jump kick of it
In flame Aura he gets 14% off his throw
He can also get an unscaled guarenteed Ex Hellfire after a throw.
His F2 crushes lows
And his Tele leaves the screen in 7 frames IIRC so can work as a great wake up when situated right

I've being saying how good he was since awhile now

In fairness he does benifit online as it's much harder to react to F4, Hellfire and Tele cancel.
He ain't got the best mids
Requires taking risks every once in a while
Doesn't have s reliable Fireball

But these weaknesses are definitely out weighted by the strengths
 
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shura30

Shura
And his Tele leaves the screen in 7 frames IIRC so can work as a great wake up when situated right
off HKDs it can be meatied leaving only takedown as a wakeup option
I can do it with cassie's B1 off a brawler grab but not all characters are so lucky and if you try the meaty off any other wakeup you still have to read/react to the roll or delayed wu

In fairness he does benifit online as it's much harder to react to F4, Hellfire and Tele cancel
it's not only a matter of reaction, F4 can be:

- FBC'ed for complete safeness/mixup
- cancelled into flame aura which altough unsafe but not so easily punished by everyone due to recovery frames and range it's still an option that could catch any counterattack

same happens for b3 allowing scorpion to still have safe meterless 5050s on top of the amazing grab you mentioned

telecancel is not an option in the neutral to close space/attack because with proper training it's a full launch but definitely another tool to watch out for
but it's incredible for escaping corner or any retaliation in strings
 

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
Premium Supporter
off HKDs it can be meatied leaving only takedown as a wakeup option
I can do it with cassie's B1 off a brawler grab but not all characters are so lucky and if you try the meaty off any other wakeup you still have to read/react to the roll or delayed wu



it's not only a matter of reaction, F4 can be:

- FBC'ed for complete safeness/mixup
- cancelled into flame aura which altough unsafe but not so easily punished by everyone due to recovery frames and range it's still an option that could catch any counterattack

same happens for b3 allowing scorpion to still have safe meterless 5050s on top of the amazing grab you mentioned
Yeah he definitely has options to mix you up after F4

Depends on the knockdown and the character if you can meaty it or not
Like Cage throws a lot so in the corner I can only meaty him with a D1/D3 which is not the greatest of options
 

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
Premium Supporter
I think every variation in this game has at least 3 losing MUs

I'm wondering who does Hellfire lose to?
I can see Mileena
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Moderator
I would like to know how tarkatan escapes hellfire's pressure
He's got some of the better armor in the game, one of which can be a two bar launcher if he wants. He out ranges him in the normals department. He takes advantage of Hellfire's meh defense pretty well.
 

Yer_Da

I don't sell Avon.
Yeah, Hellfire is ridiculously dumb, too many people like to focus on what a character can't do instead of what they can do.

I might be talking him up a bit too much, but, I think Dragon's Breath Bo' Rai Cho is in the same boat, with regards to being slept on, that character is insane.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Moderator
Yeah, Hellfire is ridiculously dumb, too many people like to focus on what a character can't do instead of what they can do.

I might be talking him up a bit too much, but, I think Dragon's Breath Bo' Rai Cho is in the same boat, with regards to being slept on, that character is insane.
check that bolded line. That sums up Tom Brady's evaluation of Sub Zero.
 

ATP2014

The best mediocre Batman
He's got some of the better armor in the game, one of which can be a two bar launcher if he wants. He out ranges him in the normals department. He takes advantage of Hellfire's meh defense pretty well.
I agree with this. Also a couple other points, such as Tarkatan U3 and d1 being some of the better anti-airs to stop jumping, and Tarkatan having a consistent punish for flame aura in S2 and EX Spin.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
Just to correct a few fallacies mentioned in this thread:

- Scorpion is miles away from being one of the best variationless characters. If he was then Inferno wouldn't frequent bottom tier contendership discussions.

- Scorpion's throw is not one of the best in the game either. It gives solid damage in conjunction with flame aura but he does not get free Oki from it, it's +13 and leaves you at around jump distance when used outside of the corner.


(That being said, a lot of Scorpion players might hate me for exposing this, but...)

- EX Hellfire is NOT guaranteed after a throw. But that's up to everyone else to find out why it isn't.

- If Scorpion is unzoneable then Raptor spent an awful lot of time letting Dragon's Kitana hang back more than half screen away chucking projectiles.... (Granted Raptor is still relatively new to the character so reactions are bound to be timid in that setting)

- The problem with D4 is that, while it is fast, low profiles and recovers relatively quickly compared to other D4s, the hit reaction knocks you quite far back and the go to follow up until the latest patch would've been, run up, F3~FBRC, but the necessary stamina required to do this is no longer doable due to the stamina cost changes. So the only thing you can really follow up a D4 with now, is another D4 (and depending on the range D4 collided, even another D4 may not be guaranteed.)

- I wouldn't really call D1 punishable anymore, only Kung Lao and Cassie can do it in the current patch (technically Shinnok maybe but I don't see a Shinnok player spending 2 bars to do it unless it results in the killing blow)

- Mileena has never been a bad matchup for Scorpion and unless some loophole has been round with Ethereal, don't see why it would be now.

- Finally, about that A-List comment... Da phuck? A-List does a much better job of being A-List, even now, than Hellfire does lol. He still entertains much better advancing moves than Hellfire, has much more reliable dash cancel conversionability (not to be confused with run cancels), some of his run cancels still going into double digit plus frames, (not just S4 btw) and far more usable projectiles (EX version being a resource for plus frames other than stamina, I might add)

In conclusion, I think Hellfire is in a solid place in this patch despite being nerfed (certainly nerfed more reasonably then the June 2015 patch), but I shouldn't have to be correcting knowledge that should've been established in 2015 to curb what is probably just the next agenda to pressure NRS into continuing to patch the game. Kneejerk patching already left one of Scorpion's overall most important strings in a very crippled state for 2/3rds of a year...
 

Matix218

Get over here!
Kneejerk patching already left one of Scorpion's overall most important strings in a very crippled state for 2/3rds of a year.
To be fair though, the gap in 214 (I assume that is what you are referring to) is much less of a problem since the most recent patch where armored launchers are either gone completely or cost 2 bars. We still have the ability to blow up the opponent on a read that they will armor or backdash and now that risk reward is totally in our favor which will make them less likely to try in the first place.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
To be fair though, the gap in 214 (I assume that is what you are referring to) is much less of a problem since the most recent patch where armored launchers are either gone completely or cost 2 bars. We still have the ability to blow up the opponent on a read that they will armor or backdash and now that risk reward is totally in our favor which will make them less likely to try in the first place.
Yeah I was talking about the first time they nerfed 214 and you could barely do follow-ups in conversions involving 214 properly. I much prefer how it is now lol.
 

Matix218

Get over here!
Yeah I was talking about the first time they nerfed 214 and you could barely do follow-ups in conversions involving 214 properly. I much prefer how it is now lol.
Oh man that was so annoying!!! We had to use 123 which if you timed it wrong wouldnt work... Glad they fixed that. That and standing 3 were so amazing the first day I played the Enhanced Online Beta
 

Matix218

Get over here!
It's such a bad match up for Kenshi in general lol.

Kill this variation pls.
It looked pretty close between you and Raptor, looked about 5-5 I reckon. Are you saying it is bad because of how he can blow up some teleport shenanigans with ex teleport?
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Moderator
Idk about 7-3. Leatherface has more options than Ferra Torr and Dung Jin.
He doesn't have THAT many more options. He has D2 for literally only JiP after Tele. Everything else beats it out. He can armor but so can FT and KJ. Backdashing out of it is a terrible idea because LF's backdash is terrible. I don't throw 7-3's around lightly. I firmly believe that's one of his worst matchups.
 

Tweedy

Noob
He doesn't have THAT many more options. He has D2 for literally only JiP after Tele. Everything else beats it out. He can armor but so can FT and KJ. Backdashing out of it is a terrible idea because LF's backdash is terrible. I don't throw 7-3's around lightly. I firmly believe that's one of his worst matchups.
We'll talk in the dms later.