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Strategy - Hellfire So, time we had a discussion about Hellfire

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
With all due respect I'm not sure if it does.

If other characters whiff one of their best buttons, they don't lose access to it for 8 seconds. Pretty sure that's the intended trade off behind it remaining active for the whole recovery.


F4~FBRC 214 is a 2f link. (Was actually a 1f link at the time I discovered it)

Into standing 3 however it's a 4f link. With proper execution it will work regardless of how meaty it hits.
Alist has much better offence To keep going
From my experience Alist is better

I wouldn't say a trade off as you get extra Dmg/Dmg during the time it is active like Reptiles Stink
 
Murko hits f4 into 214 all the time in the ESP community cups. If you want to see it go on ketchup's YouTube channel and find the fight with Ganondeurf. Should be around 1:30.
 
With that being said my execution sucks lol. I can barely link f4~fbrc into s3 and b12~fbrc into s3. That's why I play ninjutsu.
 

I also land it multiple times in tournament during Kombat Cup.
Just to put to bed the idea that 214 can't be linked from F4~FBRC without it hitting meaty:


And this was pre-XL when it was a true 1f link (you can tell by the 214~tele connecting much lower than it does now)
Thanks, that's what I was asking for as I had never seen it done, not only f4fbrc into 2 but f4fbrc into s3. Why everytime I try to do FBRC after f4 I have to wait for the animation of f4 to end before I can even get the cancel out? I'm guessing I'm too slow?
 

ryublaze

Noob
Premium Supporter
Long post incoming

Since this has been a hot topic lately hopefully this addresses all of the "Raptor doesn't even use cancels, he doesn't play him right", "Scorpion is top 5" and the "best Scorp" talk.

I will say that I play the character 100% correctly, I do all of his optimal combos, I use all of his tech and teleport setups, and I'm one of the only Scorps that does f4 fbrc and can land it consistently.

First of all the only cancels you really need to know are f4 fbrc, b3 fbrc, 123 fbrc and d4 fbrc. f4 fbrc is a must because f4 flame aura is unsafe up close. f4 fbrc is -5 but if you're mixing up fbrc with flame aura then it doesn't matter because they can't react in time to which move you did. This means you can do f4 aura, then once they respect aura you can do f4 fbrc into another mix-up or throw. The same can be done off of b3 fbrc, except you mix up fbrc with max range b3 EX Spear if you're midscreen. d4 fbrc is good because people are afraid of d4 aura, and d4 fbrc is more + on hit than a raw d4. 123 fbrc is good when mixed with throws, is +7 on block and is hit confirmable off of every hit. It's better than 214 because 123 has NO gaps and you can't hit confirm 214 if people take the last hit of it.

The reason why I don't use 214 and b12 is because b3 fbrc is simply better. 21 is a high and is +2 on block, whereas b3 fbrc is +2 and doubles as a low. 214 has a gap so you're having to guess whether they're going to armor/backdash/take the hit before applying your mix-up, when instead you could just do your 50/50 right away off of b3 fbrc. There are just too many variables to consider. If they're going to block 214 then it's the same as doing b3 fbrc into anything. b3 fbrc is better than b12 because they're the same start-up and b3 is a low whereas b12 is a mid.

The f2/f4/b3 mix-up style is stronger than blockstring pressure imo since you're getting guaranteed damage without having to worry about a bunch of other scenarios from happening. In the end, a straight up 50/50 will always be better than pressure.

I believe Scorp has to play smart and also a little "maniac" to do well. Scorpion lives and dies by his teleport. EX Teleport is his strongest tool when used right. A lot of times when you're slightly negative or during stagger pressure, you can EX Tele out of those situations and get a full combo, acting as an armored launcher. Throwing out random EX Tele and mixing it up with Tele Cancel and Tele Cancel->EX Tele is also really good.

IMO he's not top 5 and probably not even top 10 due to him having weak armor, neutral and 50/50s. His armor is extremely punishable on block and whiff, he lacks a strong neutral game and is more of an anti-neutral/zoning char, and at the highest level f4 is reactable offline. People always ask "what match-ups does he even lose to?" IMO he loses to Kitana, Smoke, Tremor, Tanya and possibly to Mileena and Quan Chi. But it's not enough to look at losing match-ups; you also have to take into account winning match-ups which I don't think he wins a whole lot. There are a lot more other characters I'd consider to be top 10 over him and those are characters who either have safe/launching armor, better neutral, stronger mix-ups or a combination of the three.

The "best with xxx character" talk is super annoying and dumb. I have nothing against EU players and have never trashed any of them, but the people who talk about Murko being better are mostly EU guys who watch Ketchup and Mustard's streams and are extremely biased. Murko's an awesome Scorpion, but he is winning ONLINE tournaments where the competition isn't as strong as it is over here in NA. On top of that, the top EU guys (Foxy, Madzin) don't even compete in those cups from what I've seen. He also gets a ton of exposure from K&M streams/videos so it's easy to think he is the best because you see him winning all the time. Scorpion is also one of the few characters that gets away with murder online. If we're going by results, then you can't say any other Scorpion is better because I've placed with the character OFFLINE.

Hopefully that settles this stupid debate and sheds some light on Hellfire.
 
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shura30

Shura
I believe Scorp has to play smart and also a little "maniac" to do well
~
but the people who talk about Murko
-we- (at least me) never said that murko is the best because of his results (and in the op i clearly stated that i wanted a discussion on the character non the usual e-penis, offline/online option select)

but he's the one individual that:

considering his playstyle,
considering his results in the competitions we have, considering the countless sets he's playing against everyone in EU (and believe me when I say that murko ranges from the casual scrub koth rooms in public matches to ranked and private against top sets)

is giving the face to the character: he's explosive, converts off basically anything, scares players to press buttons because he's relentless and consistent in combos and on top of that he adjusts quickly to the opponent
and if you go 10-9 against him today, chances are you're set to get 10-0'd the next time

If we're going by results, then you can't say any other Scorpion is better because I've placed with the character OFFLINE.
this is the exact reason I don't like this stupid option select and didn't want in this thread
I know for a fact that this community, while mostly driven by offline placements, is biased towards new faces that are popping because they finally gave us a decent netcode and good players kept getting better once the money flow stopped

but you're making a huge mistake thinking that the EU = foxy or madzin, you all should know by now that a lot of us are top16 material, same old, same old we can't get over there and viceversa so easily as we can play online

and btw a:
Scorpion is also one of the few characters that gets away with murder online.
~
Tele Cancel->EX Tele is also really good.
yet you quote an online tactic, telecancel is reactable due to its animation even more than a f4 off a +26
and if we want to think strategically even if you try to hard read the telecancel it's still a 5% damage trade and a blockstring, possibly a 5050 with all the consideration you just did, against a full launch
 
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DJ SLICE 500

its time to confess those SinzZ!
Long post incoming

Since this has been a hot topic lately hopefully this addresses all of the "Raptor doesn't even use cancels, he doesn't play him right", "Scorpion is top 5" and the "best Scorp" talk.

I will say that I play the character 100% correctly, I do all of his optimal combos, I use all of his tech and teleport setups, and I'm one of the only Scorps that does f4 fbrc and can land it consistently.

First of all the only cancels you really need to know are f4 fbrc, b3 fbrc, 123 fbrc and d4 fbrc. f4 fbrc is a must because f4 flame aura is unsafe up close. f4 fbrc is -5 but if you're mixing up fbrc with flame aura then it doesn't matter because they can't react in time to which move you did. This means you can do f4 aura, then once they respect aura you can do f4 fbrc into another mix-up or throw. The same can be done off of b3 fbrc, except you mix up fbrc with max range b3 EX Spear if you're midscreen. d4 fbrc is good because people are afraid of d4 aura, and d4 fbrc is more + on hit than a raw d4. 123 fbrc is good when mixed with throws, is +7 on block and is hit confirmable off of every hit. It's better than 214 because 123 has NO gaps and you can't hit confirm 214 if people take the last hit of it.

The reason why I don't use 214 and b12 is because b3 fbrc is simply better. 21 is a high and is +2 on block, whereas b3 fbrc is +2 and doubles as a low. 214 has a gap so you're having to guess whether they're going to armor/backdash/take the hit before applying your mix-up, when instead you could just do your 50/50 right away off of b3 fbrc. There are just too many variables to consider. If they're going to block 214 then it's the same as doing b3 fbrc into anything. b3 fbrc is better than b12 because they're the same start-up and b3 is a low whereas b12 is a mid.

The f2/f4/b3 mix-up style is stronger than blockstring pressure imo since you're getting guaranteed damage without having to worry about a bunch of other scenarios from happening. In the end, a straight up 50/50 will always be better than pressure.

I believe Scorp has to play smart and also a little "maniac" to do well. Scorpion lives and dies by his teleport. EX Teleport is his strongest tool when used right. A lot of times when you're slightly negative or during stagger pressure, you can EX Tele out of those situations and get a full combo, acting as an armored launcher. Throwing out random EX Tele and mixing it up with Tele Cancel and Tele Cancel->EX Tele is also really good.

IMO he's not top 5 and probably not even top 10 due to him having weak armor, neutral and 50/50s. His armor is extremely punishable on block and whiff, he lacks a strong neutral game and is more of an anti-neutral/zoning char, and at the highest level f4 is reactable offline. People always ask "what match-ups does he even lose to?" IMO he loses to Kitana, Smoke, Tremor, Tanya and possibly to Mileena and Quan Chi. But it's not enough to look at losing match-ups; you also have to take into account winning match-ups which I don't think he wins a whole lot. There are a lot more other characters I'd consider to be top 10 over him and those are characters who either have safe/launching armor, better neutral, stronger mix-ups or a combination of the three.

The "best with xxx character" talk is super annoying and dumb. I have nothing against EU players and have never trashed any of them, but the people who talk about Murko being better are mostly EU guys who watch Ketchup and Mustard's streams and are extremely biased. Murko's an awesome Scorpion, but he is winning ONLINE tournaments where the competition isn't as strong as it is over here in NA. On top of that, the top EU guys (Foxy, Madzin) don't even compete in those cups from what I've seen. He also gets a ton of exposure from K&M streams/videos so it's easy to think he is the best because you see him winning all the time. Scorpion is also one of the few characters that gets away with murder online. If we're going by results, then you can't say any other Scorpion is better because I've placed with the character OFFLINE.

Hopefully that settles this stupid debate and sheds some light on Hellfire.
This was an extremly good guide good job man i was thinking about picking him up myself i think mileena is terrible i feel like she just low profiles him completely plus none of his strings seem fast enough to compete its mostly a defensive matchup for scrop
 

Saltea Moonspell

"I'm a zoner, with ma boner"
Premium Supporter
I cant imagine Scorpion having an double armor on teleport, plus better neutral and better 50/50. This would be worse then Vanilla Kano CT. That would probably place him much higher then TOP 5 I guess.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Raptor stated pretty well how hellfire functions and why he takes those routes by sharing its strong points, u gotta be blind to no see it.

Hellfire Scorpion is a real solid character, the only thing i think he actually doesn't need, its having a flame aura with extra active frames which becomes plus when Flame Aura whiffs on a block string, the chance of getting captured by the heat is too huge for this character a bit disonest IMO.

But if this is a go, mileena's roll avoiding mids needs to go as well.
 

SylverRye

Official Loop Kang Main
Hee really good with some crazy tools. Flame aure is waaaaay too active and he can almost completely nullify zoning due to hellfire and the threat of an ex tele. Also, nrs need to chill with the restands.. no character should be hitting you for 30%+ into a restand thats + enough to jail you into more mixups.

That being said, i dont know his mus so i cant comment on his placement, but i WILL say that online scorpion feels top tier as hell compared to fighting it offline. His tele cancels and f4 are the struggle online lol.
 

Yer_Da

I don't sell Avon.
shura u would legit go 1-2 at best at an NA major
I recall you airing a grievance as you felt a poster on TYM was going from thread to thread and calling you out, yet, this has now been multiple times that you've followed @shura30 to multiple threads and called him out.

Please give it a rest. This isn't just @Tweedy but nobody has anything to offer here on Hellfire then air your grievances elsewhere, or send them a private message.
 

Tweedy

Noob
I recall you airing a grievance as you felt a poster on TYM was going from thread to thread and calling you out, yet, this has now been multiple times that you've followed @shura30 to multiple threads and called him out.

Please give it a rest. This isn't just @Tweedy but nobody has anything to offer here on Hellfire then air your grievances elsewhere, or send them a private message.
I'm not following Shura and criticizing everything he says, or personally insulting him, or anything like that.

He makes posts about how he's oppressed and could do well in NA, along with other EU guys who are unproven IN EU. I comment on that, and say what many are thinking. That's it, nothing more. lol

Murko is very good, but a lot of players who can't even get top 8 in tournaments that Foxy and Madzin don't go to, should not be talking about getting top 8 or out of pools over here. Prove yourself in your region first.

Edit: Happypow as well, i'm sure he could do well. He actually does really well in EU, like Foxy and Madzin before him. Shura though? Not too shura about that.

I've said everything that needs to be said. I'll stay out of this thread and let Raptor keep downplaying Hellfire kappa.
 

rubmytaco

CarriedByClone
I'm not following Shura and criticizing everything he says, or personally insulting him, or anything like that.

He makes posts about how he's oppressed and could do well in NA, along with other EU guys who are unproven IN EU. I comment on that, and say what many are thinking. That's it, nothing more. lol

Murko is very good, but a lot of players who can't even get top 8 in tournaments that Foxy and Madzin don't go to, should not be talking about getting top 8 or out of pools over here. Prove yourself in your region first.

Edit: Happypow as well, i'm sure he could do well. He actually does really well in EU, like Foxy and Madzin before him. Shura though? Not too shura about that.

I've said everything that needs to be said. I'll stay out of this thread and let Raptor keep downplaying Hellfire kappa.
Making statements like "you would go 1-2 at best at an NA tournament" is pretty unfair. You cannot judge how well he would do at an NA tournament because (a) you haven't played him offline (b) how well you do in a tournament also has to do with your luck in the pool you get.

I honestly think it's a bit disappointing that you are telling these guys to prove themselves when they don't have the same amount of tournaments as NA does/did and you were a lot like them with even bolder claims.
 

Shadow316

You inspire no fear.
The guy that guaranteed he'd make top 8 at two majors, but didn't, is calling others out. Haha, ok then.
 

Zionix

AKA Ponkster
I'm not following Shura and criticizing everything he says, or personally insulting him, or anything like that.

He makes posts about how he's oppressed and could do well in NA, along with other EU guys who are unproven IN EU. I comment on that, and say what many are thinking. That's it, nothing more. lol

Murko is very good, but a lot of players who can't even get top 8 in tournaments that Foxy and Madzin don't go to, should not be talking about getting top 8 or out of pools over here. Prove yourself in your region first.

Edit: Happypow as well, i'm sure he could do well. He actually does really well in EU, like Foxy and Madzin before him. Shura though? Not too shura about that.

I've said everything that needs to be said. I'll stay out of this thread and let Raptor keep downplaying Hellfire kappa.
Consider yourself lucky that players around the world can't afford to come over and compete at every major because some of the current top 16 would struggle to keep their places.

The top 16 in NA at the moment is the same players just in a different order. They have no competition outside themselves. Which is fine, but if you added EU/RUS best to those pools and the upsets will happen.

I'm super glad the NA has a scene because it keeps the game going, but there's no need to trash EU or the rest of the world because they can only show their stuff online.
 

Tweedy

Noob
Making statements like "you would go 1-2 at best at an NA tournament" is pretty unfair. You cannot judge how well he would do at an NA tournament because (a) you haven't played him offline (b) how well you do in a tournament also has to do with your luck in the pool you get.

I honestly think it's a bit disappointing that you are telling these guys to prove themselves when they don't have the same amount of tournaments as NA does/did and you were a lot like them with even bolder claims.
Yeah but he gets opportunities in EU tournaments and doesn't do as well as Murko/Happypow/Ktop and Foxy/Madzin/St9rm/Jupe/etc before them.

You know as well as any that if you're up there in EU, you'll get your chances at Burbank and what not. If Shura's never gotten a shot, it's for a reason. He'll have more on Injustice 2.

Your tournament was great Taco, but correct me if i'm wrong.

Neither Foxy, Madzin, Jupe, Murko or Ktop were present, yet Shura failed to make top 8? I'm sure there are other great EU players who were not present.

Yeah the oppression is on him at that point.
 

Tweedy

Noob
Consider yourself lucky that players around the world can't afford to come over and compete at every major because some of the current top 16 would struggle to keep their places.

The top 16 in NA at the moment is the same players just in a different order. They have no competition outside themselves. Which is fine, but if you added EU/RUS best to those pools and the upsets will happen.

I'm super glad the NA has a scene because it keeps the game going, but there's no need to trash EU or the rest of the world because they can only show their stuff online.
You pretty much miss my point.

Internationals have gotten a lot of chances and they have backed it up.

The ones who haven't proved themselves to be top in EU alone and just ride coattails, are not entitled to anything. That's all i'm saying.