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Strategy - Hellfire So, time we had a discussion about Hellfire

Tweedy

Noob
It looked pretty close between you and Raptor, looked about 5-5 I reckon. Are you saying it is bad because of how he can blow up some teleport shenanigans with ex teleport?
Nah he just gets a lot more than I do per hit without meter, he dominates mid range with his fast D4, he has an easier time blowing up my armor, faster buttons, teleport gets him out of a lot of my frame traps, he can punish my projectiles pretty easily.

I lost to Toxin 3-2 as well but I think Ermac vs Kenshi is fine. I'm not just going off of one set alone. FT3s can be goofy.
 

shura30

Shura
- EX Hellfire is NOT guaranteed after a throw. But that's up to everyone else to find out why it isn't.
there's different timings to backdash, you're not really hiding or exposing anyone..cassie can an also wakeup exnut

- If Scorpion is unzoneable then Raptor spent an awful lot of time letting Dragon's Kitana hang back more than half screen away chucking projectiles.... (Granted Raptor is still relatively new to the character so reactions are bound to be timid in that setting)
we are not talking about raptor's performance
would you sue me if I would say that I didn't really like his performances from top16 onwards?
tons of raw teleports and far fetched teleport cancels

- The problem with D4 is that, while it is fast, low profiles and recovers relatively quickly compared to other D4s,
you had me here, don't really need to go on
the rest is debatable
it's another one of the good tools he has in the neutral
and if you try to retaliate, chances are you're getting clipped by the flameaura


A-List does a much better job of being A-List, even now, than Hellfire does lol.
honestly I don't think you saw enough hellfire cancel creativity, take a look at murko's matches to get an idea on how those can be used in combo and for pressure
 

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
Just to correct a few fallacies mentioned in this thread:

- Scorpion is miles away from being one of the best variationless characters. If he was then Inferno wouldn't frequent bottom tier contendership discussions.

- Scorpion's throw is not one of the best in the game either. It gives solid damage in conjunction with flame aura but he does not get free Oki from it, it's +13 and leaves you at around jump distance when used outside of the corner.


(That being said, a lot of Scorpion players might hate me for exposing this, but...)

- EX Hellfire is NOT guaranteed after a throw. But that's up to everyone else to find out why it isn't.

- If Scorpion is unzoneable then Raptor spent an awful lot of time letting Dragon's Kitana hang back more than half screen away chucking projectiles.... (Granted Raptor is still relatively new to the character so reactions are bound to be timid in that setting)

- The problem with D4 is that, while it is fast, low profiles and recovers relatively quickly compared to other D4s, the hit reaction knocks you quite far back and the go to follow up until the latest patch would've been, run up, F3~FBRC, but the necessary stamina required to do this is no longer doable due to the stamina cost changes. So the only thing you can really follow up a D4 with now, is another D4 (and depending on the range D4 collided, even another D4 may not be guaranteed.)

- I wouldn't really call D1 punishable anymore, only Kung Lao and Cassie can do it in the current patch (technically Shinnok maybe but I don't see a Shinnok player spending 2 bars to do it unless it results in the killing blow)

- Mileena has never been a bad matchup for Scorpion and unless some loophole has been round with Ethereal, don't see why it would be now.

- Finally, about that A-List comment... Da phuck? A-List does a much better job of being A-List, even now, than Hellfire does lol. He still entertains much better advancing moves than Hellfire, has much more reliable dash cancel conversionability (not to be confused with run cancels), some of his run cancels still going into double digit plus frames, (not just S4 btw) and far more usable projectiles (EX version being a resource for plus frames other than stamina, I might add)

In conclusion, I think Hellfire is in a solid place in this patch despite being nerfed (certainly nerfed more reasonably then the June 2015 patch), but I shouldn't have to be correcting knowledge that should've been established in 2015 to curb what is probably just the next agenda to pressure NRS into continuing to patch the game. Kneejerk patching already left one of Scorpion's overall most important strings in a very crippled state for 2/3rds of a year...
Strykie after you throw an opponent you can dash in beat any of their button press

You won't beat a wake up but you definitely can beat any button
I think it takes 7 frames to get up before you can press a button
His throw feels more than +15
Even if it is what's his fwd dash?
Then 15+7 is 22 frames to dash and meaty

Try this throw record scorpion throw then Dash and F3 and then try to get up and beat it out with a poke from the opponent
Even recording the opponent holding up after the throw and you dash in with Scorpion and di S3 and you will see it's so meaty they stay grounded
Let many characters get meaty pressure like that mid screen. Of the top of my head Kotal, Dvorah and KJ are the ones that spring to mind

Cages frame data studs his throw is 0 but it's actually +4

About the Ex Hellfire after a throw
Cage can't do shit to escape he can trade with Ex SK but that's it
Even if there is a hidden frame that I can backdash you can change the timing
So guaranteed may not be the correct time on paper
But in most cases you are eating it
 
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Tweedy

Noob
I'm pretty positive that Scorpion can't teleport on Kitana, Mileena and Sektor's projectiles on reaction. At least Raptor and Blake are both positive that you can't. The best you can do is cancel teleport to hopefully be at advantage, or yolo.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Moderator
I'm pretty positive that Scorpion can't teleport on Kitana, Mileena and Sektor's projectiles on reaction. At least Raptor and Blake are both positive that you can't. The best you can do is cancel teleport to hopefully be at advantage, or yolo.
and Blake's reactions are preeeeeetty good so i'd trust that info xD
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
there's different timings to backdash, you're not really hiding or exposing anyone..cassie can an also wakeup exnut



we are not talking about raptor's performance
would you sue me if I would say that I didn't really like his performances from top16 onwards?
tons of raw teleports and far fetched teleport cancels



you had me here, don't really need to go on
the rest is debatable
it's another one of the good tools he has in the neutral
and if you try to retaliate, chances are you're getting clipped by the flameaura


honestly I don't think you saw enough hellfire cancel creativity, take a look at murko's matches to get an idea on how those can be used in combo and for pressure
Everyone can backdash it as long as you know the timing, Bo Rai Cho included. I mean Tweedy was still trying to Armor through them when the EX hellfire was the killshot so not many people seem to know about it...

It kind of is worth mentioning more about D4 when the main reason you would want to use it doesn't even effectively work anymore.

I was the one who discovered the current frames for Hellfire's cancels (and before I posted about it nobody knew linking from F4~FBRC was possible) I'm not gloating over that, someone else may have found them out with more time but the point is not to discount my knowledge of the cancels' application. I haven't played Murko since the patch Hellfire got crippled in (which wasn't really good reference to see how good he was other than very consistent execution with little to no errors) but from his recent play in the ESL Kombat kup top 4s or whtever it is, opponents do let him get away with more than he should. He's respected too much on cancels that are minimally plus and don't allow legit frame traps with standing normals and a lot of the opponents seem to be not keeping track of his stamina and mistaking dash cancels for run cancels. Most dash cancels are heavily negative and should be poked bare minimum.
 

GamerBlake90

Catch me if you can!
Premium Supporter
I'm pretty positive that Scorpion can't teleport on Kitana, Mileena and Sektor's projectiles on reaction. At least Raptor and Blake are both positive that you can't. The best you can do is cancel teleport to hopefully be at advantage, or yolo.
The success rate at teleporting Sektor's straight missile on a reaction is very inconsistent. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

Mileena's straight sai cannot be teleported on reaction, but when fighting Piercing, her low sai is much easier to punish (although you really shouldn't be using it as a zoning tool when fighting characters with teleport specials).

As for Kitana, her ground fans cannot be reacted to with teleport, but her air fans can. However, if those are done very close to the ground, they'll come out so much faster that you've got to be precise, or you're eating 8% damage and losing spacing.

The preferable option is to fake the teleport, but only while these characters are in recovery from using a zoning tool. If you do it in the neutral and it's scouted, it can be punished, as Dragon demonstrated when he faced Raptor at KIT. Still, this is not a likely scenario because when Scorpion teleports, it's a player's first instinct to block and punish, especially if the teleport is enhanced.
 

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
Strykie after you throw an opponent you can dash in beat any of their button press

You won't beat a wake up but you definitely can beat any button
I think it takes 7 frames to get up before you can press a button
His throw feels more than +15
Even if it is what's his fwd dash?
Then 15+7 is 22 frames to dash and meaty

Try this throw record scorpion throw then Dash and F3 and then try to get up and beat it out with a poke from the opponent
Even recording the opponent holding up after the throw and you dash in with Scorpion and di S3 and you will see it's so meaty they stay grounded
Let many characters get meaty pressure like that mid screen. Of the top of my head Kotal, Dvorah and KJ are the ones that spring to mind

Cages frame data studs his throw is 0 but it's actually +4

About the Ex Hellfire after a throw
Cage can't do shit to escape he can trade with Ex SK but that's it
Even if there is a hidden frame that I can backdash you can change the timing
So guaranteed may not be the correct time on paper
But in most cases you are eating it
whats the point in doing ex hellfire after a throw for meaty? whats wrong with normal hellfire?

Edit: nvm i thought u were talking about flame aura....i got things confused xD
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
whats the point in doing ex hellfire after a throw for meaty? whats wrong with normal hellfire?

Edit: nvm i thought u were talking about flame aura....i got things confused xD
the only point is that there is massive whiff on regular hellfire, so they can delay wake-up and punish regular hellfire, but ex-hellfire will otg IF they delay wake-up, so it covers another option

for the most part, regular hellfire is fine after a throw
 

IrishMantis

Most humble shit talker ever!!!
I didn't lol, I wanted to record the footage of when to backdash EX hellfire, before I replied (remember to use the slowest speed for the clearest view if you're watching on desktop), here you go:

Yeah I know that as I said you won't be backdashing that consistently as the player can alter the timing

I was more on about how you should do what I said to prove he can meaty off a throw then dash normal

I don't mean trying to beat out a wake up I'm talking about beating something trying to get up and press a button