Strategy - Hellfire So, time we had a discussion about Hellfire

[Zionix]

Cyrax is op

 

[STRYKIE]

Yeah I know that as I said you won't be backdashing that consistently as the player can alter the timing

I was more on about how you should do what I said to prove he can meaty off a throw then dash normal

I don't mean trying to beat out a wake up I'm talking about beating something trying to get up and press a button

I can do it on reaction to the fire itself materialising, keep in mind it's still 26f startup, it's not that difficult honestly.

Dashing in on Oki is quite a long way from running though, for the sake of perspective 214 FBRC is +20 odd while FBDC is +3. I don't discount that he's left in a better position on a throw than some others but I don't think it's really grounds for having one of the BEST throws in the game.

 

[I.z.u.n.a.]

Hellfire prob one of the best defensive character in a offensive heavy game. He's dangerous to try and get in on, dangerous to zone, one of the best anti-airs and punishes super hard on block.

However, if you do manage to get in on him he becomes shitty. His armor is pure ass. Maybe the worst armor in the game.

He's a catch 22 being a defensive character in an offensive game who holds up well until someone gets in on him. Some characters have an easy time getting in on him too. He does have some bad matches.

Not a top 5 character but possibly top 10.

 

[Zionix]

Hellfire prob one of the best defensive character in a offensive heavy game. He's dangerous to try and get in on, dangerous to zone, one of the best anti-airs and punishes super hard on block.

However, if you do manage to get in on him he becomes shitty. His armor is pure ass. Maybe the worst armor in the game.

He's a catch 22 being a defensive character in an offensive game who holds up well until someone gets in on him. Some characters have an easy time getting in on him too. He does have some bad matches.

Not a top 5 character but possibly top 10.

Interesting viewpoint.

I see him as an offensive monster. Slows the neutral to a crawl then like a trapdoor spider pounces when you least expect it. Smothers you in plus frames and if he feels like he might be in trouble he just backs off and awaits his next moment.

His armor is good, I don't know how you come to worst armor in the game.

 

[Invincible Salads]

Hellfire prob one of the best defensive character in a offensive heavy game. He's dangerous to try and get in on, dangerous to zone, one of the best anti-airs and punishes super hard on block.

However, if you do manage to get in on him he becomes shitty. His armor is pure ass. Maybe the worst armor in the game.

He's a catch 22 being a defensive character in an offensive game who holds up well until someone gets in on him. Some characters have an easy time getting in on him too. He does have some bad matches.

Not a top 5 character but possibly top 10.

his armor isnt shitty....its decent.....quans armor is shitty. lol

and his offense is really good too, or did you forget about the cancels.

 

[I.z.u.n.a.]

Interesting viewpoint.

I see him as an offensive monster. Slows the neutral to a crawl then like a trapdoor spider pounces when you least expect it. Smothers you in plus frames and if he feels like he might be in trouble he just backs off and awaits his next moment.

His armor is good, I don't know how you come to worst armor in the game.

His offense is good but I wouldn't say an offensive monster lawl. He's got it all but it's not launching offense. Low damage 50/50's, good throw, good pressure. If you are playing someone who can't react to f4 then I'd agree his offense is great. Otherwise, I'd say it's above average. And that's only when he's got meter to do cancels which he won't be able to do when chasing someone down.

His armor is fast but it's horrible on block AND whiff.

his armor isnt shitty....its decent.....quans armor is shitty. lol

and his offense is really good too, or did you forget about the cancels.

Like I said above, his armor is one of the worst on block in the game and the worst on whiff. Quan's is the only armor that is worse.

His pressure is fine but it's nothing like a launching 50/50. Sonya's offense is really good. Quan's offense is really good. Kano's offense is really good. ect. He can't just run up and start doing cancels. He's got to land a combo to do that first and that can be a problem if he's the one who has to get in.

 

[Tweedy]

F4 and B3 are a lot more complicated in Hellfire than "fuzzy it bro". You're not gonna react to either of those cancelled into a fbrc, the cancel is too fast. If you try to stuff that, say hello to flame aura. Any hit leads into massive damage into a restand. I didn't even know how good B3 flame aura is once conditioned, until Raptor picked up the character. Sure it won't work every time, but 40% into a restand in a FT3 is a big deal LOL.

When you're looking out for all of that, good luck blocking F2 or stopping throws.

His jump 3 is very hard to anti air. A lot of them are, so... Okay? Difference is that his leads into 35% into a restand into chip into setplay into loser's bracket into out of the tournament.

He has good full combo anti airs. Big deal on this vider game.

6 frame pokes.

Quite a good character.

 

[Zionix]

His offense is good but I wouldn't say an offensive monster lawl. He's got it all but it's not launching offense. Low damage 50/50's, good throw, good pressure. If you are playing someone who can't react to f4 then I'd agree his offense is great. Otherwise, I'd say it's above average. And that's only when he's got meter to do cancels which he won't be able to do when chasing someone down.

His armor is fast but it's horrible on block AND whiff.



Like I said above, his armor is one of the worst on block in the game and the worst on whiff. Quan's is the only armor that is worse.

His pressure is fine but it's nothing like a launching 50/50. Sonya's offense is really good. Quan's offense is really good. Kano's offense is really good. ect. He can't just run up and start doing cancels. He's got to land a combo to do that first and that can be a problem if he's the one who has to get in.

You had me at low damage 50/50s.

hellfire bottom 5

 

[I.z.u.n.a.]

F4 and B3 are a lot more complicated in Hellfire than "fuzzy it bro". You're not gonna react to either of those cancelled into a fbrc, the cancel is too fast. If you try to stuff that, say hello to flame aura. Any hit leads into massive damage into a restand. I didn't even know how good B3 flame aura is once conditioned, until Raptor picked up the character. Sure it won't work every time, but 40% into a restand in a FT3 is a big deal LOL.

When you're looking out for all of that, good luck blocking F2 or stopping throws.

His jump 3 is very hard to anti air. A lot of them are, so... Okay? Difference is that his leads into 35% into a restand into chip into setplay into loser's bracket into out of the tournament.

He has good full combo anti airs. Big deal on this vider game.

6 frame pokes.

Quite a good character.

You could just jump back after you block either f4 or b3. It's only a guessing game to poke after them if you allow it to be.

No one has disputed his j3 is good. Or that he has 6 frame pokes.

Yes he is a good character. Just thought I'd point out the weaknesses that people have seemed to ignore in this thread.

 

[I.z.u.n.a.]

You had me at low damage 50/50s.

hellfire bottom 5

f2 is 8% and b32f2 is 14%. Not a big deal.

Unless you are considering b3 and f4 a 50/50...which means you aren't thinking on the highest possible level in the matchup then. Which means your done here.

 

[shura30]

However, if you do manage to get in on him he becomes shitty. His armor is pure ass. Maybe the worst armor in the game.

the takedown is not a shitty armored move
also, he doesn't really need an armor for defense, at some point your offensive will have - frames and/or a gap and that 6 frames d1 or extele will do wonders
and if you still manage to get in on him, his meter building is crazy due to the number of blocked hits forced by the cancels and the number of specials he can use in a combo
as said in the past for other characters, one of his best moves is the combo breaker

f2 is 8% and b32f2 is 14%. Not a big deal.

both force hard knockdown so more oki for scorpion to play
and neither is punishable

from my point of view, against scorpion you don't get rewarded enough for a successful bait or read
(look up my thread on b32f2 in cassie's subforum)
he's mostly safe and the flame aura catches retaliations like it's the old meta with armored lauchers

 

[Zionix]

f2 is 8% and b32f2 is 14%. Not a big deal.

Unless you are considering b3 and f4 a 50/50...which means you aren't thinking on the highest possible level in the matchup then. Which means your done here.

Lets just say F4 doesn't exist, B3 is still a launcher. So you either take the F2 or its a full combo into restand pressure.

No different than a-list pre-patch and that was arguably top 5.

 

[Invincible Salads]

i need to start doing more b3 into flame aura

 

[IrishMantis]

I wouldn't call his Armour worst in the game

It hits low and low profiles, got 2 hits or armour, great advantage on knockdown.

There are still armours in the game that you can break or react too that are full combo punishable .

It's not a great armour arrack for sure, I wouldn't Brag about it but I do not believe it is the worst .

It does the job it's suppose to do without any problems. Yeah opponent can block or sometimes evade deoending on the situation but that's usually how it works

 

[LowtierKabal]

Hellfire Scorpion Is Completely DUMB.

This character has 40% resets from anywhere on the screen just off of any opportunity/hit.

He resets you and you have to guess OH or Low; not to mention his ability to cancel. "Just block low and React to the OH dawg" yeh fuck you. Scorpion has a thing called f2 that he will keep abusing until you die.

Flame Aura Active Frames are completely busted. Active for 9000 frames, no Cool down, hardly punishable.

You cant attempt to AA Scorpion cause jump 3 the god. And you cant jump at him because Flame Aura the god lmao.

How Hellfire mains aren't winning anything with him is beyond me. Busted Character. Hate him with a passion!

 

[I.z.u.n.a.]

the takedown is not a shitty armored move
also, he doesn't really need an armor for defense, at some point your offensive will have - frames and/or a gap and that 6 frames d1 or extele will do wonders
and if you still manage to get in on him, his meter building is crazy due to the number of blocked hits forced by the cancels and the number of specials he can use in a combo
as said in the past for other characters, one of his best moves is the combo breaker




both force hard knockdown so more oki for scorpion to play
and neither is punishable

from my point of view, against scorpion you don't get rewarded enough for a successful bait or read
(look up my thread on b32f2 in cassie's subforum)
he's mostly safe and the flame aura catches retaliations like it's the old meta with armored lauchers

Takedown is a shitty armor move. Sorry but it just is. I get that it serves it's purpose but in context with the rest of the armor moves in the game it's a heaping pile. I'll retract in saying it's the worst in the game, but outside of Quan, it's easily bottom 5 worst armor.

One of his best moves is the combo breaker? Naw dude. He uses meter for armor, ex tele for anti-zoning and ex tele for added damage to his combos. Sooooo pretty much like everyone else. That's a lame argument. He's not a meter building monster like Kitana or something either. You're over-exaggerating.

And wtf you want b32f2 to be punishable or something? It's already on the brink of being punishable as is. You're wanting a 14% low to full combo punishable? You're just being an unreasonable zealot at this point.

Lets just say F4 doesn't exist, B3 is still a launcher. So you either take the F2 or its a full combo into restand pressure.

No different than a-list pre-patch and that was arguably top 5.

At least you can put a decent argument together. You are right though. I would argue another reason Cage was so good before though was because he had some of the best armor in the game, which Scorp is on the opposite spectrum from that standpoint, but you make a good point.

 

[shura30]

Takedown is a shitty armor move. Sorry but it just is. I get that it serves it's purpose but in context with the rest of the armor moves in the game it's a heaping pile. I'll retract in saying it's the worst in the game, but outside of Quan, it's easily bottom 5 worst armor.

as mantis said, it low profiles and it's still a 2 armored HKD option
please go and tell specops that there's some armor worse than hers

One of his best moves is the combo breaker? Naw dude. He uses meter for armor, ex tele for anti-zoning and ex tele for added damage to his combos. Sooooo pretty much like everyone else. That's a lame argument. He's not a meter building monster like Kitana or something either. You're over-exaggerating.

you seem to not have read a single one of my arguments

And wtf you want b32f2 to be punishable or something? It's already on the brink of being punishable as is. You're wanting a 14% low to full combo punishable? You're just being an unreasonable zealot at this point.

for a 3 hit hkd string that is listed as -9 punishable is the minimum
so while defending you either take b3 fbc, b3 flameaura or b32f2, as I've already said, no reward for reading and reacting correctly

 

[I.z.u.n.a.]

as mantis said, it low profiles and it's still a 2 armored HKD option
please go and tell specops that there's some armor worse than hers



you seem to not have read a single one of my arguments



for a 3 hit hkd string that is listed as -9 punishable is the minimum
so while defending you either take b3 fbc, b3 flameaura or b32f2, as I've already said, no reward for reading and reacting correctly

At least specops armor is fairly safe on whiff. You aren't comprehending any of this are you.

I read your arguments about meter usage and I think they're exaggerated.

Ok you only mentioned b32f2 in your previous post. I'm not going to comb through Cassie forums so if you're going to make a point maybe you should put in a little more effort.

So besides that, yea Scorp's b3 has some decent guessing games attached. Scorp thrives off of defensive reads and momentum and some characters have an easy time getting through his defense which is a problem for him since his armor sucks. He also has a tough time chasing characters down and doing damage if he needs to make a comeback since he can't use cancels to layer his offense because you typically need to use run meter to get in.

Those weaknesses were why he's probably not in the top 5, but still probably top 10. He's good. I don't think I'm being unreasonable.

 

[Eddy Wang]

is this exactly 7 frames?

actually its 6 frames.

 

[ILuvFightGames]

Can anyone post a vid where they're doing f4fbrc or b12fbrc? I mean put the AI on auto block and show me. I can't seem to believe it's posdible lol.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Can anyone post a vid where they're doing f4fbrc or b12fbrc? I mean put the AI on auto block and show me. I can't seem to believe it's posdible lol.

If F4 hits meaty he can connect 114 and possibly B12 out of fbcs if i remember correctly.

He is indeed a really scary character, with a very strong jump kick as well very hard to anti-air, and can condition enough to not randomly press buttons while he is doing his stuffs.

 

[shura30]

At least specops armor is fairly safe on whiff.

sorry matey, stopped reading there
you don't seem to have a clue about what I'm saying or what you want to say

 

[I.z.u.n.a.]

sorry matey, stopped reading there
you don't seem to have a clue about what I'm saying or what you want to say

Same to you. We agree on something at least.

 

[STRYKIE]

Hellfire Scorpion Is Completely DUMB.

This character has 40% resets from anywhere on the screen just off of any opportunity/hit.

He resets you and you have to guess OH or Low; not to mention his ability to cancel. "Just block low and React to the OH dawg" yeh fuck you. Scorpion has a thing called f2 that he will keep abusing until you die.

Flame Aura Active Frames are completely busted. Active for 9000 frames, no Cool down, hardly punishable.

You cant attempt to AA Scorpion cause jump 3 the god. And you cant jump at him because Flame Aura the god lmao.

How Hellfire mains aren't winning anything with him is beyond me. Busted Character. Hate him with a passion!

What's this 40% full screen reset you speak of?

as mantis said, it low profiles and it's still a 2 armored HKD option
please go and tell specops that there's some armor worse than hers



you seem to not have read a single one of my arguments



for a 3 hit hkd string that is listed as -9 punishable is the minimum
so while defending you either take b3 fbc, b3 flameaura or b32f2, as I've already said, no reward for reading and reacting correctly

B3~Flame Aura doesn't even link mid screen....

If F4 hits meaty he can connect 114 and possibly B12 out of fbcs if i remember correctly.

He is indeed a really scary character, with a very strong jump kick as well very hard to anti-air, and can condition enough to not randomly press buttons while he is doing his stuffs.

You can link 214 from F4~FBRC if it hits normally, going for F4 on meaty isn't advisable given that it hits even slower.

 

[Eddy Wang]

What's this 40% full screen reset you speak of?


B3~Flame Aura doesn't even link mid screen....


You can link 214 from F4~FBRC if it hits normally, going for F4 on meaty isn't advisable given that it hits even slower.

but it hits on the latest active frames which still makes him well plus enough to connect but yeah.