Breakthrough - Raiden F1 being a high now redundant, Quan has a 6f D1

[Big Pampering]

Jop is the best raiden?

 

[Raidenwins]

Got word of your passive aggressive bullshit in this thread

You should remember just because you LOVE raiden doent mean that you are or will ever or ever were good w him in mk9 and MKX. In fact you will always be the type of player you've always been, a non threat

Just because you live that character doesn't mean you are the raiden community voice

You've never done anything to gain that respect in or outside the game and furthermore I've never played a worse raiden in either game.

the results you never achieved but think u sniffed have you confused and has led you down a jealous path.

Last thing, raiden could get buffed or we could remove the HD and I would body your free ass from here to kingdom fucking come so if you wanna get passive aggressive w my name tag me next time and bow up w me in a MM

Until then focus on you and your game and not what my character needs or our character community

Peace Wizz

With all due respect, B W1zZ was one of the best and most respected Raiden players in MK9, if not the best. We are all frustrated in the Raiden community right now because our character was over nerfed and he is rarely seen in tournaments any more, much less Top 8.

With that said, something should be done to compensate for the severe nerfs in question. I don't know about making F1 mid again, but I am definitely in favor of some combination of the following: fix the hitbox on B1, 1 so it hits ALL characters consistently, fix the hitbox on (EX) DB3 so Raiden lands in front of the opponent and not behind them at -20 (or something like that), reduce the damage scaling on his lightning strings in Thunder God (normal hit or on block), reduce recovery time on B2 (as you suggested), and make orbs in MoS either do more damage or have hit stun properties.

 

[One Inch Punch]

they nerfed his combos damage, his chip damage , his f1... poor raiden

 

[Enexemander]

"Raiden was in his rightful place as a top character" what the fuck? Why should raiden automatically NEED to be a top character. I dont know how he should be entitled to that for no reason. No character "deserves" to be top tier, someone has to be low, someone has to be mid, someone has to be high.

I mean, he IS a god.

Just saying.

 

[ismael4790]

they nerfed his combos damage, his chip damage , his f1... poor raiden

At least Raiden didn't fall directly on B tier or trash tier, like Fisticuffs did. Or Kenshi, who was nerfed even before the game came out...

 

[One Inch Punch]

At least Raiden didn't fall directly on B tier or trash tier, like Fisticuffs did. Or Kenshi, who was nerfed even before the game came out...

when u taste the power and then lose it,
It is worse than if you had never had power

....

 

[Rude]

And...? Fisticuffs was nerfed after that tournament and after Quans being raped. And by the way, the Erron-Fisti matchup was fair in my view. Erron had his 50s, Fisti the speedbag. Falling in the corner was almost dead for both of them. Nobody complained there.
I didn't say Quan was the only reason of the nerf, but was the main focus of complaints (especially from Quan mains that couldn't stand having a bad matchup even when their char is top tier). Probably Paulo didn't care about the tears, and it was a coincidence. Sure

You still haven't provided me any actual evidence that Quan Chi was THE reason Fisticuffs got nerfed.

None. I don't necessarily think Fisticuffs needed to be nerfed either, but to suggest that Fisticuffs was nerfed because of ONE match up is ridiculous.

 

[Rude]

With all due respect, B W1zZ was one of the best and most respected Raiden players in MK9, if not the best. We are all frustrated in the Raiden community right now because our character was over nerfed and he is rarely seen in tournaments any more, much less Top 8.

With that said, something should be done to compensate for the severe nerfs in question. I don't know about making F1 mid again, but I am definitely in favor of some combination of the following: fix the hitbox on B1, 1 so it hits ALL characters consistently, fix the hitbox on (EX) DB3 so Raiden lands in front of the opponent and not behind them at -20 (or something like that), reduce the damage scaling on his lightning strings in Thunder God (normal hit or on block), reduce recovery time on B2 (as you suggested), and make orbs in MoS either do more damage or have hit stun properties.

Perfect Legend, who used Raiden as an alt, did more with the character than B Wizz ever did.

 

[BigMilk]

Man, I wish I could respond to everyone that is trying to legitimately discuss Raiden. I see so many posts that talk about changes that dont even remotely address Raiden's issues.

 

[Cameronwinss]

Ooooo Can we talk about something serious ...Like giving Jacqui some range or even some new Brazilian hair

 

[SEN WIIISE]

People are so butthurt about Quan that he is now being blamed for other character's nerfs.

I think you're just defending your character more so. I for one am a part of the group that thinks he should've gotten it back and I have 0 problem with Quan Chi, though I've cringed facing him at locals and my last major. It's cool to defend him, rightfully so. But relax, not everyone is hating on your main. Word travels around in highlights when it comes to buff/nerf patch info. I def remember multiple discussions I had with ppl saying Quan was a big part of the reason for the nerf. Or at least now, it seems like he was the highlight example. It only makes sense that he gets brought up. The attitudes on this site are so snarky its ridiculous.

Like, I though ppl were just hating on @Pig Of The Hut too, but after that last post to Bwizz? Like srsly?
Really don't think all that was necessary man. If you got a point to make, make it.
I get it, but openly throwing shade and disrespect? PM it or sumn' bro.
You don't have to be a glorified somebody to speak up about the game we all enjoy and care about.
This thread has officially gone south and for multiple reasons.

Man, I wish I could respond to everyone that is trying to legitimately discuss Raiden. I see so many posts that talk about changes that dont even remotely address Raiden's issues.

Exactly. I could never expect Paulo or anyone else that could go through the proper channels to even want to get passed page 2. It's a shame, because people who disagree can't express that with being snarky or talking down about everyone else. These threads will forever be derailed by emotional filler.

In an attempt to bring it back though. @CrimsonShadow Made the best Nay-say post so far.
I believe this should be the focus of conversation, for those who care to continue the discussion with some sincerity.

1) The issue with pokes wasn't just Quan Chi
2) The problem with f1 wasn't being was a pure infinite; it was that a 6-frame advancing mid string, which was one of his strongest footsie tools, became a mixup in itself, which led to insane corner carry on hit, and serious chip on block. Even if you had the frame window to poke, you had to know *when* to poke, and with Raiden staggering a 6-frame safe advancing footsie tool that's much easier said than done.

Oh and to EVERYONE who keeps bringing up suggestions for Raiden's changes? You're kinda in the wrong thread bro =P

If he needed additional changes to compensate, that's another discussion --

But after seeing this thread, it'd take a brave soul to even wanna discuss general Raiden changes.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

I think you're just defending your character more so. I for one am a part of the group that thinks he should've gotten it back and I have 0 problem with Quan Chi, though I've cringed facing him at locals and my last major. It's cool to defend him, rightfully so. But relax, not everyone is hating on your main. Word travels around in highlights when it comes to buff/nerf patch info. I def remember multiple discussions I had with ppl saying Quan was a big part of the reason for the nerf. Or at least now, it seems like he was the highlight example. It only makes sense that he gets brought up. The attitudes on this site are so snarky its ridiculous.

Like, I though ppl were just hating on @Pig Of The Hut too, but after that last post to Bwizz? Like srsly?
Really don't think all that was necessary man. If you got a point to make, make it.
I get it, but openly throwing shade and disrespect? PM it or sumn' bro.
You don't have to be a glorified somebody to speak up about the game we all enjoy and care about.
This thread has officially gone south and for multiple reasons.



Exactly. I could never expect Paulo or anyone else that could go through the proper channels to even want to get passed page 2. It's a shame, because people who disagree can't express that with being snarky or talking down about everyone else. These threads will forever be derailed by emotional filler.

In an attempt to bring it back though. @CrimsonShadow Made the best Nay-say post so far.
I believe this should be the focus of conversation, for those who care to continue the discussion with some sincerity.


Oh and to EVERYONE who keeps bringing up suggestions for Raiden's changes? You're kinda in the wrong thread bro =P


But after seeing this thread, it'd take a brave soul to even wanna discuss general Raiden changes.

If you passively aggressively dish it you better be ready to take it as well

I said nothing incorrect nor personal. If any of my info was wrong then he should post what when where why

 

[Rude]

I think you're just defending your character more so. I for one am a part of the group that thinks he should've gotten it back and I have 0 problem with Quan Chi, though I've cringed facing him at locals and my last major. It's cool to defend him, rightfully so. But relax, not everyone is hating on your main. Word travels around in highlights when it comes to buff/nerf patch info. I def remember multiple discussions I had with ppl saying Quan was a big part of the reason for the nerf. Or at least now, it seems like he was the highlight example. It only makes sense that he gets brought up. The attitudes on this site are so snarky its ridiculous.

Like, I though ppl were just hating on @Pig Of The Hut too, but after that last post to Bwizz? Like srsly?
Really don't think all that was necessary man. If you got a point to make, make it.
I get it, but openly throwing shade and disrespect? PM it or sumn' bro.
You don't have to be a glorified somebody to speak up about the game we all enjoy and care about.
This thread has officially gone south and for multiple reasons.



Exactly. I could never expect Paulo or anyone else that could go through the proper channels to even want to get passed page 2. It's a shame, because people who disagree can't express that with being snarky or talking down about everyone else. These threads will forever be derailed by emotional filler.

In an attempt to bring it back though. @CrimsonShadow Made the best Nay-say post so far.
I believe this should be the focus of conversation, for those who care to continue the discussion with some sincerity.


Oh and to EVERYONE who keeps bringing up suggestions for Raiden's changes? You're kinda in the wrong thread bro =P


But after seeing this thread, it'd take a brave soul to even wanna discuss general Raiden changes.

The comment was supposed to be a joke.

Raiden could probably use some love, but f1 as a mid again might not be it

 

[Barrogh]

Best thing that can happen to Raiden right now is a complete remake from scratch.

f1 mid again? Please, we already have a ton of silly rushdown and pressure in this game. What it needs now is new concepts. Or old ones that were thrown out for that matter. In a game where everyone does the same thing one will always come out on top and the rest will be irrelevant.

 

[juicepouch]

You still haven't provided me any actual evidence that Quan Chi was THE reason Fisticuffs got nerfed.

None. I don't necessarily think Fisticuffs needed to be nerfed either, but to suggest that Fisticuffs was nerfed because of ONE match up is ridiculous.

....

Come on, man

lol. If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck

 

[Rude]

....

Come on, man

lol. If it walks like a duck and it talks like a duck

I do not believe the entire variation was nerfed due to one match up and I've yet to be given concrete evidence to the contrary. It doesn't matter if you replace Quan with Takeda, I still wouldn't believe it.

Here's an example: Pre-patch Cyber Kano had a true Block Infinite on Quan, Takeda, Reptile, and possibly another character with his B1. It was because of this that the B1 was made more - and the recovery increased. Multiple match ups were affected by this, so it had to change.

So if that is the logic used when nerfing a character with a situation very similar to Fisticuffs to those characters, why would they contradict that logic for only ONE match up?

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it?

More likely, it was a combination of that and how Grand Finals played out, since Paulo was there to see it in person.

Of course this is speculation on both sides, but there just isn't enough evidence based on the precedent of how these characters are getting changed to support the claim that Quan was the ONLY reason Fisticuffs was changed.

 

[B W1zZ]

Got word of your passive aggressive bullshit in this thread

You should remember just because you LOVE raiden doent mean that you are or will ever or ever were good w him in mk9 and MKX. In fact you will always be the type of player you've always been, a non threat

Just because you live that character doesn't mean you are the raiden community voice

You've never done anything to gain that respect in or outside the game and furthermore I've never played a worse raiden in either game.

the results you never achieved but think u sniffed have you confused and has led you down a jealous path.

Last thing, raiden could get buffed or we could remove the HD and I would body your free ass from here to kingdom fucking come so if you wanna get passive aggressive w my name tag me next time and bow up w me in a MM

Until then focus on you and your game and not what my character needs or our character community

Peace Wizz

I'll get to some of the other posts but first:

Is it really passive aggressive bullshit? If you want to go there look at your own passive aggressive bullshit about Kenshi and other characters that you complain about on purpose because of your own ulterior motives to get the patch changes you desire. I think that's one of the biggest problems with Paulo Garcia listening to players like you, your in it for yourself rather than for the overall balance of the game and for the community like you pretend you are. Your two faced shenangigans aren't really a secret to anyone.

Yeah, I love Raiden he's my favorite character, so what. Now your bringing up my skill as a player and where you think I stand in terms of skill when I in no way, shape, or form pumped myself up in that regard in MKX. You can think whatever you want about me as a player, it doesn't bother me because I know the truth, and to put it bluntly I'm probably a bigger threat than you realize.

I stopped being a voice in the Raiden community a long time ago because my words would fall on deaf ears. I work on a one on one basis these days, and people still come to me for advice and to learn. Posting my shit on here is a waste of time and I have no desire for TYM props and don't give a shit what people think about me.

There really is no jealousy other than the fact I haven't had the means or the desire to make it out to events until recently. I've already won a few tournaments in this game and did well at a few others, a few of which I only went to because people wanted to see me play.

I recall wonder chef winning a tournament with Quan Chi yet you still downplayed his tournament win because it was early in the game. You blamed the character for his win. Results bro, oh the hypocrisy.

I'll let you know when I plan on making it out to an event then we can money match. You might want to keep your notebook handy though.

I'll contine to focus on me and my game like I have been doing, absolutely.

Peace, piggy.

 

[ismael4790]

I do not believe the entire variation was nerfed due to one match up and I've yet to be given concrete evidence to the contrary. It doesn't matter if you replace Quan with Takeda, I still wouldn't believe it.

Here's an example: Pre-patch Cyber Kano had a true Block Infinite on Quan, Takeda, Reptile, and possibly another character with his B1. It was because of this that the B1 was made more - and the recovery increased. Multiple match ups were affected by this, so it had to change.

So if that is the logic used when nerfing a character with a situation very similar to Fisticuffs to those characters, why would they contradict that logic for only ONE match up?

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it?

More likely, it was a combination of that and how Grand Finals played out, since Paulo was there to see it in person.

Of course this is speculation on both sides, but there just isn't enough evidence based on the precedent of how these characters are getting changed to support the claim that Quan was the ONLY reason Fisticuffs was changed.

Nobody said NRS nerf-buff policies are logic xD

People talked a lot about how braindead Fisticuffs was, and that was just because one or two matchups where he could dominate.
A small nerf would have been ok, but not destroying the variation. If that was not the reason, I don't know what it was. Other characters had no problems getting out of that pressure, people just had no time to get used to the matchup, he was instantly nerfed.
That variation was cool, had a good pressure tool, but not even 50s or vortex or anything most characters now have and abuse of. There are lots of things way more braindead in this game that remain the same, or even get buffed (Kung Lao?).

 

[Dankster Morgan]

Nobody said NRS nerf-buff policies are logic xD

People talked a lot about how braindead Fisticuffs was, and that was just because one or two matchups where he could dominate.
A small nerf would have been ok, but not destroying the variation. If that was not the reason, I don't know what it was. Other characters had no problems getting out of that pressure, people just had no time to get used to the matchup, he was instantly nerfed.
That variation was cool, had a good pressure tool, but not even 50s or vortex or anything most characters now have and abuse of. There are lots of things way more brainded in this game that remain the same, or even get buffed (Kung Lao?).

The fisticuffs nerf always surprised me. It was never as good as a-list, it was just a fun variation that got totally castrated.

 

[Qwark28]

I'll get to some of the other posts but first:

Is it really passive aggressive bullshit? If you want to go there look at your own passive aggressive bullshit about Kenshi and other characters that you complain about on purpose because of your own ulterior motives to get the patch changes you desire. I think that's one of the biggest problems with Paulo Garcia listening to players like you, your in it for yourself rather than for the overall balance of the game and for the community like you pretend you are. Your two faced shenangigans aren't really a secret to anyone.

Yeah, I love Raiden he's my favorite character, so what. Now your bringing up my skill as a player and where you think I stand in terms of skill when I in no way, shape, or form pumped myself up in that regard in MKX. You can think whatever you want about me as a player, it doesn't bother me because I know the truth, and to put it bluntly I'm probably a bigger threat than you realize.

I stopped being a voice in the Raiden community a long time ago because my words would fall on deaf ears. I work on a one on one basis these days, and people still come to me for advice and to learn. Posting my shit on here is a waste of time and I have no desire for TYM props and don't give a shit what people think about me.

There really is no jealousy other than the fact I haven't had the means or the desire to make it out to events until recently. I've already won a few tournaments in this game and did well at a few others, a few of which I only went to because people wanted to see me play.

I recall wonder chef winning a tournament with Quan Chi yet you still downplayed his tournament win because it was early in the game. You blamed the character for his win. Results bro, oh the hypocrisy.

I'll let you know when I plan on making it out to an event then we can money match. You might want to keep your notebook handy though.

I'll contine to focus on me and my game like I have been doing, absolutely.

Peace, piggy.

 

[buyacushun]

In an attempt to bring it back though. @CrimsonShadow Made the best Nay-say post so far.
I believe this should be the focus of conversation, for those who care to continue the discussion with some sincerity.

I'm quoting @SEN WIIISE in case you have similar thoughts. If you don't that's fine. I have not read this thread since the topic was talked about before. But your post did highlight a good post so I figured I'll try for some conversation.

@CrimsonShadow I have a few questions about your thoughts on F1. What is the mixup created by F1? F1 and F12 being negative what kind of stagger pressure really happened with that string since you can't really delay anything? With TG raiden also getting nerfs in damage do you still think you should include that damage has a pro to F1?

My biggest gripe with the F1 nerf was that there were other ways to handle it and even though the problem was TG, MoS and Displacer got hurt too. Much worse than TG did since they were already behind. Also, when the change happened, MoS and Displacer only had an unsafe low off of F1. If F1 was a mid again, I'd like to see it stay 6f but maybe somewhere more negative. If they had to change/remove the f12b2 string from MoS and Displacer I'd hope for some new stuff since those two would be losing their big damage combo and one of the few good strings to actually pressure in those variations.

To everyone that thinks F1 was an auto win button. I just want to point out you say "in the early stages of the game". This is very important because it means people didn't lab like they do now. People didn't know the stuff they do now. And because of the way NRS does stuff, the game was nowhere close to the way it is now. Old F1 and what Raiden players were doing (B2 OS that is impossible now) was in a different playing field than the new F1. I'm sure we can point out a ton of stuff that looked too good in month 1 that isn't that good now or maybe even got buffed. As well as there are things that are still strong since month 1. Just something to think about.

 

[Pig Of The Hut]

I'll get to some of the other posts but first:

Is it really passive aggressive bullshit? If you want to go there look at your own passive aggressive bullshit about Kenshi and other characters that you complain about on purpose because of your own ulterior motives to get the patch changes you desire. I think that's one of the biggest problems with Paulo Garcia listening to players like you, your in it for yourself rather than for the overall balance of the game and for the community like you pretend you are. Your two faced shenangigans aren't really a secret to anyone.

Yeah, I love Raiden he's my favorite character, so what. Now your bringing up my skill as a player and where you think I stand in terms of skill when I in no way, shape, or form pumped myself up in that regard in MKX. You can think whatever you want about me as a player, it doesn't bother me because I know the truth, and to put it bluntly I'm probably a bigger threat than you realize.

I stopped being a voice in the Raiden community a long time ago because my words would fall on deaf ears. I work on a one on one basis these days, and people still come to me for advice and to learn. Posting my shit on here is a waste of time and I have no desire for TYM props and don't give a shit what people think about me.

There really is no jealousy other than the fact I haven't had the means or the desire to make it out to events until recently. I've already won a few tournaments in this game and did well at a few others, a few of which I only went to because people wanted to see me play.

I recall wonder chef winning a tournament with Quan Chi yet you still downplayed his tournament win because it was early in the game. You blamed the character for his win. Results bro, oh the hypocrisy.

I'll let you know when I plan on making it out to an event then we can money match. You might want to keep your notebook handy though.

I'll contine to focus on me and my game like I have been doing, absolutely.

Peace, piggy.

Cool story

 

[Barrogh]

What is the mixup created by F1?

After ending combo with b14~lightning you can go for low, overhead, throw (or anything else) that can be beaten by armor, or you can go for f1 that will stuff any armoring attempt due to hitting before opponent allowed to act actively.
That's the one I know of.

 

[BigMilk]

I'm quoting @SEN WIIISE in case you have similar thoughts. If you don't that's fine. I have not read this thread since the topic was talked about before. But your post did highlight a good post so I figured I'll try for some conversation.

@CrimsonShadow I have a few questions about your thoughts on F1. What is the mixup created by F1? F1 and F12 being negative what kind of stagger pressure really happened with that string since you can't really delay anything? With TG raiden also getting nerfs in damage do you still think you should include that damage has a pro to F1?

My biggest gripe with the F1 nerf was that there were other ways to handle it and even though the problem was TG, MoS and Displacer got hurt too. Much worse than TG did since they were already behind. Also, when the change happened, MoS and Displacer only had an unsafe low off of F1. If F1 was a mid again, I'd like to see it stay 6f but maybe somewhere more negative. If they had to change/remove the f12b2 string from MoS and Displacer I'd hope for some new stuff since those two would be losing their big damage combo and one of the few good strings to actually pressure in those variations.

To everyone that thinks F1 was an auto win button. I just want to point out you say "in the early stages of the game". This is very important because it means people didn't lab like they do now. People didn't know the stuff they do now. And because of the way NRS does stuff, the game was nowhere close to the way it is now. Old F1 and what Raiden players were doing (B2 OS that is impossible now) was in a different playing field than the new F1. I'm sure we can point out a ton of stuff that looked too good in month 1 that isn't that good now or maybe even got buffed. As well as there are things that are still strong since month 1. Just something to think about.

I know you asked crimsonshadow but I wanted to respond as well. I think it was more unfamiliarity with the game opposed to being a tool as dominant as it was made to be. Most people still don't realize that it was his only good option in most situations. F12 is -3 but I would get so much respect that I could go for 50/50s or anything. That was the biggest issue with the move and could've been fixed by being made more negative. it's still a great option defensively, but it's very clear that this version of Raiden isn't how he was intended to be. I would go back to mk9 Raiden in a flash

 

[@MylesWright_]

A further nerf crime that Pig of the hut can indirectly be held responsible for