Breakthrough - Raiden F1 being a high now redundant, Quan has a 6f D1

[BigMilk]

What's wrong with the neutral game? b32 takes up half the screen. His NJP is one of the best in the game. Superman is a good whiff punisher. d3 does it's job in being fast, safe, and quick recovering. He's got one of the fastest runs in the game. EX shocker still acts as a great reactionary 'catch all' in footsies. I'm not saying he's a footsie king but he's got everything you need.

Sure he only does decent damage midscreen but everything he hits you with sends you to the corner where he still has his 40% combos.

Do we really want his overhead to be safe? Are we really advocating meterless vortexes again?

To me he seems complete with the right amount of fairness + cheapness. I support any hitbox issues that aren't working right in his other variations, but MoS alone I don't see any major concerns to be asking for significant buffs.

Pokes are very negative while only rewarding minimal advantage. Most approaches and normals can easily be low-profiled. Remaining pokes are either slow, unsafe or terrible range.

 

[Rude]

hes big and hes clunky

What does that mean?

 

[Slips]

Pokes are very negative while only rewarding minimal advantage. Most approaches and normals can easily be low-profiled. Remaining pokes are either slow, unsafe or terrible range.

What's slow about a 7 frame d1 that is +11 on hit? Sure -9 but outside of 2 or 3 characters that's not a big deal. And doesn't f4 crush lows?

 

[BigMilk]

What's slow about a 7 frame d1 that is +11 on hit? Sure -9 but outside of 2 or 3 characters that's not a big deal. And doesn't f4 crush lows?

I didn't say d1 was slow, I said all his pokes are slow, unsafe or have poor range. D1 would fall in the unsafe category. F4 crushes lows but as far as pokes are concerned, you would only be punishing those on a read. Some low projectiles can be punished on reaction. His main footsie tool at sweep range is f2 (which is advantage) but it can only be used effectively if blocked. It's low profiled and jumped over easily. His footsies are good because of his armor but meterless he isn't a threat and can't run at you and do anything.

 

[Cerebru]

I'm sure you all remember Dizzy winning Combo Breaker with Thunder God Raiden, and MIT's F12 antics without real in depth knowledge of the character. Way back then, certain "swine" within our community decided to use their voice and hold that they have in terms of opinions (not facts), over the mindless, sheeple within this community, in an agenda against the Thunder God. Most likely because at that time (and still to this day) they complain about how bad their character supposedly is regardless of the numerous buffs they received (I personally dubbed that patch MKX: Bacon edition), because at that given time Raiden was in his rightful place as a top character and some people just couldn't accept it, also Kenshi just happened to not be top 2 in this game.

Onto my point. The main selling point for Raiden's F1 being made a high was the fact that quan chi could not escape loopable pressure in the corner due to having slow pokes, which is understandable. Outside of Quan Chi I do not recollect any other characters having problems poking out of this. NOW, Quan Chi's D1 is now 6f meaning he can escape this loop so in essence this particular patch change has been made redundant in the most recent patch since that was the only logical reason to nerf this essential mid. Now Raiden has to deal with characters like Cassie who not only low profile everything, but cause his only other, more useless mid in B1(1) to whiff on the second hit because of retarded hitboxes. In my opinion F12 should have been made slightly more negative on block rather than making F1 a high. If F1 has to be a high, than at least make say standing 2 or 3 a mid in it's place, the only other options are b11 which whiffs on low profile happy characters and yoloing NJP like an idiot, also the nerfed B2 which half the time isn't worth throwing out unless you have them conditioned to block low.

Discuss.

@colt

Agreed! My first post of MKX was please don't nerf my char to garbage, make them learn the match up for freakin once. I honestly think standing 2 should be a mid or standing 3. Kotal destroys Raiden with pokes. Maybe ex shocker be a mid positive launcher like the rest of the cast?

 

[THTB]

I didn't say d1 was slow, I said all his pokes are slow, unsafe or have poor range. D1 would fall in the unsafe category. F4 crushes lows but as far as pokes are concerned, you would only be punishing those on a read. Some low projectiles can be punished on reaction. His main footsie tool at sweep range is f2 (which is advantage) but it can only be used effectively if blocked. It's low profiled and jumped over easily. His footsies are good because of his armor but meterless he isn't a threat and can't run at you and do anything.

The thing about d1 is that it is a crouching normal. You cannot actually punish it with any 9f move. They must be mid, and not that many characters have a 9f mid special or 8f mid normal other than a poke to punish.

 

[Cerebru]

I didn't say d1 was slow, I said all his pokes are slow, unsafe or have poor range. D1 would fall in the unsafe category. F4 crushes lows but as far as pokes are concerned, you would only be punishing those on a read. Some low projectiles can be punished on reaction. His main footsie tool at sweep range is f2 (which is advantage) but it can only be used effectively if blocked. It's low profiled and jumped over easily. His footsies are good because of his armor but meterless he isn't a threat and can't run at you and do anything.

B

He don't need a 6f mid again...but at least make f12 like 0 or +1 on block or something lol. At least Tremor can leave himself at +2 on block for his f1. That and fix b11's hitbox.

He needs it.

 

[BigMilk]

The thing about d1 is that it is a crouching normal. You cannot actually punish it with any 9f move. They must be mid, and not that many characters have a 9f mid special or 8f mid normal other than a poke to punish.

Pretty sure I have been punished with highs, not exactly sure. But it's just unsafe in general, no pokes to bait whiff punishes or anything.

 

[THTB]

Pretty sure I have been punished with highs, but not exactly sure.

As long as you stay crouching, highs will whiff no matter how fast.

 

[buyacushun]

Agreed! My first post of MKX was please don't nerf my char to garbage, make them learn the match up for freakin once. I honestly think standing 2 should be a mid or standing 3. Kotal destroys Raiden with pokes. Maybe ex shocker be a mid positive launcher like the rest of the cast?

The community listed all the armored launchers and I think only 2 were safe. Cassie mid screen and goro everywhere.

Making another normal a mid was brought up before. It would help him to have more buttons that will hit but they are slower than b1 so then I'm not sure how much that'll help. And 3 doesn't really add much.

The thing about d1 is that it is a crouching normal. You cannot actually punish it with any 9f move. They must be mid, and not that many characters have a 9f mid special or 8f mid normal other than a poke to punish.

For a few characters that's a poke that's going to hit which leaves them with even more frame advantage.

The 6f mid was there for a specific purpose and nrs removed it, so now raiden just has a hole in his game. He has to make one off reads, sometimes with meter. He doesn't get to pressure then guess to continue. But I guess as long as Raiden has a 50/50 and superman, raiden players will have to be satisfied with NJP while our opponents wait and block so we end up negative.

And no I'm not downplaying. That's really how his neutral works. I'd take some reduced offense (at least in MoS) to get a neutral that isn't so stagnant.

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

What does that mean?

I mean its hard for Raiden to play neutral.
He has a large hitbox and is slow so hes kind of a tank.

 

[Rude]

I mean its hard for Raiden to play neutral.
He has a large hitbox and is slow so hes kind of a tank.

How is he slow? His run speed is fine.

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

How is he slow? His run speed is fine.

how it feels to use Raiden:

 

[Tokiwartoothxdk]

buff his backdash pls

 

[Eldriken]

buff his backdash pls

Every character in the game should have Bane's backdash.

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

Raiden is the god of thunder.
He shouldn't be slow as molasses.

 

[Eldriken]

Raiden is the god of thunder.
He shouldn't be slow as molasses.

Tremor is an Earth Bender. He should be able to make the ground beneath you crack open and instantly win.

 

[Rude]

Raiden is the god of thunder.
He shouldn't be slow as molasses.

I don't see where this slow narrative is coming from.

His walk speed is on par with Sub Zero. His run is no slower than anyone else's.

He also has:

An 8 frame stand jab.
An 8 frame B1.
A 6 frame f1
A 7 frame d1
An unseeable 13 frame b2
A 15 frame f2(same speed as Quan's overhead)
A 13 frame B3(also unreactable)
An 8 frame d3.

The slowest normals I see are a 13 frame d4(in context of d4s), and a 24 frame f4.

His movement is fine. His normals average around 8-13 frames.

Your conclusion is wrong, sir!

 

[BiPolarExxpress]

I don't see where this slow narrative is coming from.

His walk speed is on par with Sub Zero. His run is no slower than anyone else's.

He also has:

An 8 frame stand jab.
An 8 frame B1.
A 6 frame f1
A 7 frame d1
An unseeable 13 frame b2
A 15 frame f2(same speed as Quan's overhead)
A 13 frame B3(also unreactable)
An 8 frame d3.

The slowest normals I see are a 13 frame d4(in context of d4s), and a 24 frame f4.

His movement is fine. His normals average around 8-13 frames.

Your conclusion is wrong, sir!

I read this frame data and dream of having it.

 

[BigMilk]

How is he slow? His run speed is fine.

He can't do anything after he runs. Doesn't answer your question though lol

 

[Slips]

I didn't say d1 was slow, I said all his pokes are slow, unsafe or have poor range. D1 would fall in the unsafe category. F4 crushes lows but as far as pokes are concerned, you would only be punishing those on a read. Some low projectiles can be punished on reaction. His main footsie tool at sweep range is f2 (which is advantage) but it can only be used effectively if blocked. It's low profiled and jumped over easily. His footsies are good because of his armor but meterless he isn't a threat and can't run at you and do anything.

Ok fair enough, but to me if they are blocking and punishing d1 then you are getting what you wanted. Like you said if they are punishing d1 that's a pretty hard read they made. They are just standing there asking to be 50/50'ed.

Why is f2 his main footsie tool when b3 does the same thing, is faster and is actually part of his 50/50 anyway? b3 is pretty much a low poke then the 2 covers his ass to be completely safe since it cannot be armored through and the range makes it impossible to whiff punish. Only way to really blow it up is to throw projectiles, which he can blow through with ex superman, or jump over him...and jumping at Raiden means you'll die.

I'm just sick of hearing about f1. People are acting like one move makes a character and it's not true. They need to stop playing with Raiden like he was prepatch and learn how to use his other moves. Only thing f1 should be used for is punishing and AA.

 

[The_Tile]

 

[Eldriken]

I read this frame data and dream of having it.

Tell me about it. ;_;

 

[usedcarsalesmang]

I don't see where this slow narrative is coming from.

His walk speed is on par with Sub Zero. His run is no slower than anyone else's.

He also has:

An 8 frame stand jab.
An 8 frame B1.
A 6 frame f1
A 7 frame d1
An unseeable 13 frame b2
A 15 frame f2(same speed as Quan's overhead)
A 13 frame B3(also unreactable)
An 8 frame d3.

The slowest normals I see are a 13 frame d4(in context of d4s), and a 24 frame f4.

His movement is fine. His normals average around 8-13 frames.

Your conclusion is wrong, sir!

his movement is pretty slow. backdash is slow for sure. dash and run are meh.
combined with his huge hitbox that makes him clunky chunky monkey.

try playing and you'll feel what I mean

 

[infamy23]

dash and run are meh.

He has one of the fastest run speeds in the game. It's up there with D'Vorah / Cassie