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Why Sub Zero Should Not Be Nerfed. The GrandMaster Speaks.

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RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
I'm 100% sure that every sub player defending this "reactable overhead just lab it lul" bs will never trade it for a safe mid string.
Turbo oof... If you had actually labbed Sub-Zero tho, if you’d ever looked at his move list even ONE time, you’d know that he already flippin has one.
 

santanabar

Apprentice
Turbo oof... If you had actually labbed Sub-Zero tho, if you’d ever looked at his move list even ONE time, you’d know that he already flippin has one.
You didn't even understand it... I'm saying that if you had the chance to change the oh into a mid (because why not, "overhead is reactable") and make the whole string safe, you will never do that. Why? Because sz player open people all the time with that, just bc it isn't fking reactable.
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
Obviously they wouldn't give up their 50-50 blender spam for a safe string lol, do you want the character to end up FOR REAL in B tier, not like in that fake horseshit tierlist that's been going arround?
 

BlondeWolf411

Cowboy Pioneer
You didn't even understand it... I'm saying that if you had the chance to change the oh into a mid (because why not, "overhead is reactable") and make the whole string safe, you will never do that. Why? Because sz player open people all the time with that, just bc it isn't fking reactable.
This makes no sense though you’re asking if they want to trade a useful tool for opening people up that doesn’t combo (in the better variation mind you) for a safe mid string that still won’t combo that’s just stupid sounding and not a good argument.

Just because something is reactable doesn’t mean you’ll never be hit by it there’s a million things that go into neutral and footsies there is no end all be all way to block a character that’s just common sense if you’re good at fighting games in general, Harley Quinn had a 26 frame overhead in Inj1 and I can guarantee you Saltface or any other good Harley landed that normal even though it should be fully reactable because she has many low tools that make you block low and forget the overhead exists.

Sub has a 19 frame overhead and in a match it is fully reactable you don’t have to be godlike to do it but does that mean you’ll never be hit by his overhead again? absolutely not you have a split second to react and if you’re not paying attention you’re going to be caught by it.
 

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
I'm still waiting for someone to explain how you can react to a 19f move with the game's 4f native input lag.
 
As some of you may know, Sub Zero has a history of being really good when the game comes out, but then shortly after the game comes out, he gets nerfed into oblivion while other characters get to keep their dirt. I say let everyone have their dirt until there's an abundance of evidence to suggest that they should be nerfed. Let's at least wait until we have a few majors under our belt. In this video, Tom Brady speaks about why Sub Zero should not be nerfed. Besides making a lot of good points about why they should let him be, it's highly entertaining. I could not control my laughter at certain points in this video, but I will let the grandmaster do the speaking for me as only he can do, with intelligence and a side of humor.


My only issue here is that they specifically said pre launch that looping 50/50 characters would not be in the game. Make normal ice ball not freeze or make normal ice ball not combo off the low starter. All issues fixed.
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
My only issue here is that they specifically said pre launch that looping 50/50 characters would not be in the game.
THIS so much.

The sheer ammount of bullshit that was fed in the kombat kasts is humongous.

"THIS GAME IS NOT MKX" -> RELEASES COPY PASTE OF MKX CHARACTER WITH BLENDER SPAM
 

santanabar

Apprentice
This makes no sense though you’re asking if they want to trade a useful tool for opening people up that doesn’t combo (in the better variation mind you) for a safe mid string that still won’t combo that’s just stupid sounding and not a good argument.

Just because something is reactable doesn’t mean you’ll never be hit by it there’s a million things that go into neutral and footsies there is no end all be all way to block a character that’s just common sense if you’re good at fighting games in general, Harley Quinn had a 26 frame overhead in Inj1 and I can guarantee you Saltface or any other good Harley landed that normal even though it should be fully reactable because she has many low tools that make you block low and forget the overhead exists.

Sub has a 19 frame overhead and in a match it is fully reactable you don’t have to be godlike to do it but does that mean you’ll never be hit by his overhead again? absolutely not you have a split second to react and if you’re not paying attention you’re going to be caught by it.
What's the relation between neutral and footsies with a damn overhead? You open people up because they just can't react to it or guessed wrong, not because you have better neutral and whiff punish them, in that case a mid would be exactly the same. And let me tell you, ppl don't forget they have it, if sz players spam it all the time. It's the same thing as scorp tele amp on block "it's reactable and punishable, just lab it lol" but for some reason nobody wants it to be changed :DOGE
 

mrapchem

Apprentice
I think it's stupid to say that if someone hasn't used a particular character, he shouldn't be allowed to have an opinion on that character. Still, it's obvious that those who are saying how great Johnny is either used him very little or not at all.
The only thing you said that I agree with is about his pokes. Scorpion, Noob, and Baraka are the only characters I can think of that can out D4 Johnny, because of their pokes' range.
Cage's force balls are good, but you can't block after using them. If Cage and Kano were to trade projectiles, Kano would always win, because he can block immediately after throwing a knife. Force balls are meant to be used intermittently, and I'm assuming only after F4 too, because both force balls whiff after F3.
Cage isn't just lacking when it comes to crushing blows, he just doesn't have anything viable period. I have over 1,000 matches with Cage, and I landed his mime parry crushing blow only once online. I landed his amplified nutpunch crushing blow only once in the towers of time. I landed his F43 crushing blow about 6 or 7 times which came down to luck, or my opponent was trash.
Conditioning and annoying your opponent works wonders when you're playing only one match in Kausal then quitting. When playing sets against good players, that's where you notice what little effort was put into the character. Almost every match ends up with your opponent simply blocking low and turtling, anticipating grabs, because without grabs, Cage is worthless. Good players aren't going to let you constantly throw F3s out without spamming pokes or uppercuts. It's very easy to break away from grabs in this game. You can't rely Cage Rage, because sometimes it doesn't even charge properly. Sometimes I have to use it 5 times in order for the unblockable punch to proc. Fun fact: Cage Rage was originally supposed to be Scorpion's move, but it was given to Cage at the last minute. Which further proves how rushed Cage is.
His second variation needs to be completely reworked. There's no argument here. Playing without a variation is actually better. In my opinion, the specials in general are gimmicky and stupid. A camera flash for a stun move? How ridiculous is that in a fighting game? Why even use Cage if he doesn't have access to his nutpunch?
It's not fair that we have to work 3 times as hard and actually think about what we're doing, whereas Jax can just vomit out those bullshit overheads at whim. Most good Cage players aren't even asking for an overhead, just some buffs, yet everyone is shouting how great he is.
I'll go as far as to say that NRS is trying to ruin Johnny Cage for obvious reasons. Cage was always arrogant and always talked, but he always backed up his shit. Especially in MKX as he defeated Shinnock. In MKX he had funny lines, but he was mature. In MK11 he's just a douchebag with a trash moveset. In the story mode it always looks like he's wearing makeup, and he wears these ridiculous, over the top, bright colored pink and purple outfits.
Somebody should remind NRS:
Johnny Cage should be A tier (he isn't right now) not only because he's an original, but because he's the reason, not Liu Kang, why MK exists. He deserves buffs.
Back on topic about Sub Zero, I don't think he's overpowered, but his overhead is too fast. It was a blatant lie for NRS to say this kind of stuff wouldn't exist in this game, but 50/50s high damage combos still exist for some characters, the popular ones that is.
I also play Johnny Cage, along with Sub-Zero and a few others - I am not one of those people who is merely theory-crafting about a character I don't personally play.

It is hyperbole to say that Cage has absolutely nothing that is viable when I and other Cage players can name nearly a dozen positive qualities that Cage has. He has excellent backwards movement, which is needed for his bait-&-punish/conditioning playstyle. He also has far-reaching kick normals that either lead into a +5 nut punch or condition the opponent to block and not spam pokes & uppercuts.

Cage's straight fireball does indeed allow him to block/duck afterwards, but you have to throw them out strategically. Their strength is that they have really fast start-up and good recovery, so you throw them out when you think the opponent is going to try to approach. I have footage where I was playing against a Sonya - who we both know has an even better fireball that we do - and I threw a straight forceball a split-second before she threw her fireball; I was able to hit her and had time to duck her projectile.

If you try to base his gameplay around his tournament variations and unviable KBs, you will indeed struggle. For now, you'd be better served by ignoring his KBs and focusing on his strengths, which include an 8-frame, +17 on hit D4. You mentioned that Scorpion, Baraka and Noob (Sub-Zero should also be included in this) all have D4s that out-range Cage's, which is true. However, all their D4s are double-digit start up, especially Baraka's, which is slow as hell. You should never get hit by Baraka's D4 as long you have good spacing and F4.

You are also correct to say that Cage is all about making the opponent block low to anticipate grabs, but grabs are 50/50s in this game. You're going to need to mix your forward/backwards grabs after a blocked F3. But even with the opponent blocking an F3, you can mix the 50/50 throw option with a back-step into B3 or F4. You have to unpredictably mix up what you do to a blocking opponent with Cage, which means not relying on moves such as Caged Rage. It really should be used sparingly, such as to clutch out a round. And it should be mixed up between throwing it out in neutral against a block-happy opponent, or by attaching it after a blockstring. You even have the option to jump in with J2. It has a good range and leads to a throw/plus frames on block.

It makes little sense to proclaim that NRS set out specifically to ruin JC when they gave him so many good things (fast forceball, amazing pokes, low-profiling, a +5 re-stand, good jump-ins, plus frames, great movement). They also set out to make sure that everything he does has a weakness/counter, just like they did with every other character in the game. His abilities/KBs do indeed leave much to be desired, like that camera that you mentioned, but him JC as a base character definitely has enough strengths to compete against good players.

Plus, this game isn't anywhere close to being completely discovered, so for all we know, JC might already be A-tier and we just don't know how/why yet. There was Kung Lao tech discovered just the other day that could move him up a few notches. Raiden was thought to be mediocre at launch, but that mentality appears to be quickly changing. And then there's Sub-Zero - he was thought to be at the very top of the tier list at launch, yet NRS's best player, SonicFox just came out and put him in B-tier and demonstrated why he thought so. He showed himself blocking not only Sub's 50/50, but his 50/50 vortex setups. And he kept consistently blocking these 'unreactable' 50/50s for minutes at a time.

We have only just begun to scratch the surface of everything this game has to offer - there is definitely more tech to be discovered, so it's way too early to be waiving certain characters off as unredeemable or all-but-impossible to win with. And it's still far too early to be asking for JC buffs, other than KB fixes.

Yes, there are characters that require more work to be successful with, but that's true in every fighting game.
And yes, you're going to need to think about what you're doing in the neutral - that's a trademark-quality about this game in general.
Every single character in this game has to be strategic in what they're going to do, or they will be whiff-punished, KB'd or anti-aired.
This applies even to Geras, Sonya, Erron and Sub-Zero.
Each step, dash, jump, normal and special move ought to be thought out before being thrown out there because if it's ill-timed, you will pay for it in this game.

MKX wasn't like this and that's why it has a overwhelmingly negative reputation. NRS has made a masterful game in Mortal Kombat 11 that has every component to become the very best game they have every created, once its idiosyncrasies are ironed out.

Let's do this; I will make a thread in the JC Forum - if it already hasn't been made - with in-game footage of Johnny matches against the best opponents I've played. I invite you to post your match footage there too.
 
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CliffP

Noob
I'm still waiting for someone to explain how you can react to a 19f move with the game's 4f native input lag.
Because average human reaction time to press a button in response to a visual cue is 15 frames.

A good fighting game player's reaction time to release a button is slightly better than that. The realistic cut off at high level gameplay is 17 frames when you account for native input lag. That's why the overhead feels so good online, because we're also playing on television sets that have anywhere from 1-5 frames of input delay.

But to the other points since we can debate reaction times all day, it's still balanced even if it's unreactable because it's full combo punishable. How many other characters in the game have unreactable low/oh strings both offline and online, a few of them.

Y'all are getting so caught up in the fear that the vortex puts you in not realizing that he can get guaranteed 30-37% from finishing the combo instead of 10% then an unsafe gamble for the other 30ish%. The best DoW players actually don't use the vortex about 3/4 times they get a ground confirm.
 

mrapchem

Apprentice
Because average human reaction time to press a button in response to a visual cue is 15 frames.

A good fighting game player's reaction time to release a button is slightly better than that. The realistic cut off at high level gameplay is 17 frames when you account for native input lag. That's why the overhead feels so good online, because we're also playing on television sets that have anywhere from 1-5 frames of input delay.

But to the other points since we can debate reaction times all day, it's still balanced even if it's unreactable because it's full combo punishable. How many other characters in the game have unreactable low/oh strings both offline and online, a few of them.

Y'all are getting so caught up in the fear that the vortex puts you in not realizing that he can get guaranteed 30-37% from finishing the combo instead of 10% then an unsafe gamble for the other 30ish%. The best DoW players actually don't use the vortex about 3/4 times they get a ground confirm.
OMG Thank you for this post!!!

Good Sub-Zero players absolutely DO NOT make their entire gameplan about the 50/50 vortex mix.

We will shimmy into b32-ice ball at sweep distance and closer.
We whiff-punish throws, uppercuts and blocked pokes with B1/B2.
We stop the B143 string short to go into a poke/throw on block, and then mix that up with simply finishing the string.
We quickly dash back-and-forth to set up anticipation for the F4 that never arrives when the opponent thinks it will.
We slide on reaction to an erroneously-thrown projectile.
We anti-air with a S1/S2/B2 into a full combo after goading opponents to jump at sweep to mid-screen distance.
We throw the overhead out mostly after a forward throw, which we know can be beaten by delayed wakeup, forward/backward roll or by simply blocking, so we use it sparingly.

The overhead/low mix-up is merely a portion of a good Sub-Zero's strategy - and that portion will only get smaller as more people get accustomed to fighting the character.
 
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Xzyj

Mortal
We will shimmy into b32-ice ball at sweep distance and closer.
We whiff-punish throws, uppercuts and blocked pokes with B1/B2.
We stop the B143 string short to go into a poke/throw on block, and then mix that up with simply finishing the string.
We quickly dash back-and-forth to set up anticipation for the F4 that never arrives when the opponent thinks it will.
We slide on reaction to an erroneously-thrown projectile.
We throw the overhead out mostly after a forward throw, which we know can be beaten by delayed wakeup, forward/backward roll or by simply blocking, so we use it sparingly.
damn that sounds like some hard work, keep it up sub-zero players, don't overwork yourselves
 

CliffP

Noob
Re: "too many things to think about in neutral so that makes the overhead harder to react to."

Why are you in range of his overhead in neutral? You can play outside the range of his low and only have to block overhead against DoW.

If you're in that space and blocking then you've already lost that neutral exchange, don't blame it on the overhead.
 

Versa

Noob
Ya'll see how outrageously dominant Sub-Zero was at Combo Breaker this past weekend? The top 8 was jam-packed with Sub-Zero players who absolutely wrecked the competition with that super overpowered, super unsafe, visually react-able overhead and all of his overtly dominant mid hitting attacks.

I'm totally dropping him and learning how to play Jax or Geras, but it's definitely NOT because he's mediocre at best and completely overrated by bad players who would rather cry than lab or anything. I just have a code of honor that simply makes me feel gross from playing such an unfair character that is clearly top 2 at worst. I don't understand how they balanced Erron, Sonya, Scorpion, Jacqui, and Cassie so well yet dropped the ball with this broken ass character.

When Sub-Zero is actually goo-I mean nerfed I may revisit him in the future. Right now, it's simply way too much.
 

Jhob5

Noob
Ive seen plenty of reactable things work on people in fighting games from watching high level footage. People since the dawn of this genre have been hit by reactable stuff. I actually used to be really interested in this and would test the things i saw in matches to see how reactable they are or aren't.
Just because someone posted a video reacting perfectly to something doesn't mean that everyone can react the exact same or that hes going to be able react in a neutral situation. You could get caught completely off guard and that could delay your reaction. I do believe people do have different levels of reaction time than others, and that yeah you can train your reaction time in training mode. I used to try doing that all the time in training mode but I found if I didn't consistently practice reacting it didn't stay sharp so I gave up on it. Just my take I realize I could be wrong but ive seen reactable stuff nail people in high level games.
 
Ya'll see how outrageously dominant Sub-Zero was at Combo Breaker this past weekend? The top 8 was jam-packed with Sub-Zero players who absolutely wrecked the competition with that super overpowered, super unsafe, visually react-able overhead and all of his overtly dominant mid hitting attacks.

I'm totally dropping him and learning how to play Jax or Geras, but it's definitely NOT because he's mediocre at best and completely overrated by bad players who would rather cry than lab or anything. I just have a code of honor that simply makes me feel gross from playing such an unfair character that is clearly top 2 at worst. I don't understand how they balanced Erron, Sonya, Scorpion, Jacqui, and Cassie so well yet dropped the ball with this broken ass character.

When Sub-Zero is actually goo-I mean nerfed I may revisit him in the future. Right now, it's simply way too much.
In case people are wondering, he's trolling :p
 
Doesn't matter if he's trolling or not, still gonna get that nerf.
Bro, I think you should focus on bigger problems such as worrying whether NRS is gonna buff your fav character Johnny Cage (I assume that since he's used in ur profile pic) in any future game patch lol, he's in a very sad place right now.

He's pretty much non-existent in the Kombo Breaker event, and when he does get picked, gets tossed left and right and has his neck chopped by Geras. He even loses to a zone-heavy Cetrion lmao.

Tbh, feel kinda sorry for you and JC fans, since opponents can just block LOW to counter JC kombos hahaha.....
 

omooba

fear the moobs
Bro, I think you should focus on bigger problems such as worrying whether NRS is gonna buff your fav character Johnny Cage (I assume that since he's used in ur profile pic) in any future game patch lol, he's in a very sad place right now.

He's pretty much non-existent in the Kombo Breaker event, and when he does get picked, gets tossed left and right and has his neck chopped by Geras. He even loses to a zone-heavy Cetrion lmao.

Tbh, feel kinda sorry for you and JC fans, since opponents can just block LOW to counter JC kombos hahaha.....
johnny cage beats geras...
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
Hello again.

"Subzero doesn't have staggers"
Buffalo staggered the shit out of Scar @ CEO
"Subzero is react-able"
Buffalo destroyed Scar with 50-50s from strings and shoulder charge mb or not
"F4 is flawless blockable"
Buffalo destroyed everyone with f4 intro 50-50 spam uncounterable.

Now that we're done with the bullshit spewage from subzero mains,

This shit nerfed yet?
 
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