Why Sub Zero Should Not Be Nerfed. The GrandMaster Speaks.

[Hellbringer]

Facts: Sub Zero is not overpowered, but whiffing issues in general are a huge problem.

Fact, you know nothing about fighting games and all your posts are just a bunch of whining.

 

[SwiftEagle]

Fact, you know nothing about fighting games and all your posts are just a bunch of whining.

Most people agree with me that Sub Zero is not overpowered. Most people agree with me that whiffing issues should be fixed. Whining and complaining are two different things. Whining would be screaming at my tv and saying how bad the game is. Complaining is doing something about it, like I've been doing here; talking about what gives us trouble, what's wrong with the game, and general tips so we all can get better. Constructive criticism.
Quite a few times I had my mind changed on here thanks to people positing videos or explaining what I'm doing wrong. Especially the Sub Zero crowd. I used to blindly think he was top tier like a scrub.
It took you a while to finally expose what your problem was with my posts, but I didn't get a single refutation. Your response was referring to all my posts, which shows me your fanboying hard.

 

[lordlosh]

If anything Sub Zero needs a buff, not a nerf. There is so many character that simply have free win against him.

5:50 SonicFox explain it perfectly. He show it with a gameplay as well.
Just because some someone is not good enough to certain move like Sub Zero OH or Scorpion teleport, that doesnt mean this move require a nerf or character are "so strong" or need balance.
I read a lot of crap like nerf his only safe string and make it heavily punishable, and the argument was, because Jade this and this string are not safe .....
You realize how dumb that sound ?
How in the blue hell you can even compare Jade to Sub Zero and overall gameplay?
So glad that games are not balanced by low-mid levels majority of the players, because there we have a broken game.
Game is balanced by top tier players, because then you can use character at 100% of their capabilities. And you can see which move is imbalanced and need balance and so on.

Some good and bad things about him:

Sub Zero have Low-Profiling Issues, and there is a lot of issue with that. There is a whole thread for it.
His attack are generally slow.
Hiz zoning is sh*** in both variation.
Ice ball is slow as f*, and i mean start up, and you need to be in long range(otherwise may eat a punish, cause his recovery), does no dmg(unless amplify) and you can amplify only on dead of winter.
The only fast string he have is 1,2, still slower than a lot of other characters punch string. Also have shit range.
His B1,4 have great range, its a high, slow start up, easy to block and it]s obvious as hell what you going to do if you are in range. Zero chance to surprise someone.
People that said he is easy to play and its make for newbie in the game dont know what their talking about.
Every combos that have jumps and dash and require to change sides and continuing combo are very hard and most importantly hard to do it constantly.

You can go out and watch pro players that use Sub Zero at his full potential and how many combos they drop, and its not because they are bad, but because combo are hard and you cant do it 100% of the time.


His KB are kinda okay, he have KB on throw, which is very good in the current throw meta. His FB is meh, range is okay, but its slow as f***, and 200% punishable.
His combo damage are okay.
He has + and - , but the character is really nothing special. Doesnt have enough diversity and if you learn that match up, he doesnt really have some strong points that can dominate or something that surprise you time after time.
He is probably the easiest character to play against if you learn how to play against him.

A lot of people here are babycrying of nerfing for character that is plaed a lot. But ninja characters(and most popular ones) will always be played the most by the base.
But in PRO competition he just sucks, kinda same goes for Scropion.

 

[DrFolmer]

Okay this 'reactable overhead' thing is getting kind of old now. Nobody reacted to it at CEO. I've seen Sonic get hit by it off a jump in (meaning he has to take the mixup). If it's reactable he should never be opened up by it after a jump in.

Hiz zoning is sh*** in both variation.
Ice ball is slow as f*, and i mean start up, and you need to be in long range(otherwise may eat a punish, cause his recovery), does no dmg(unless amplify) and you can amplify only on dead of winter.

Yes, a combo starting projectile guaranteeing you a combo on a trade. It's such a bad tool. It only nets you a SCALED combo rofl. B2 doesnt even insta kill omg delete the character, such a trainwreck

 

[lordlosh]

Did you even watch the video, SonicFox literaly show it like 572482747274 successively time, where he always reacted to it.
And there is a plenty of videos out there people react to it and punish it.
And you are going to tell me you know better than SonicFox which move is reactable and which is not? Is that you are trying to say?
And Ice Ball argument is how much his zoning sucks, no one is talking about do it in a combo.
Should i even trying to compare it to Liu Kang FIreball projectile, Cassie or someone else?

BTW, what is the best placement of Sub Zero in a major ?

 

[mrapchem]

If anything Sub Zero needs a buff, not a nerf. There is so many character that simply have free win against him.

5:50 SonicFox explain it perfectly. He show it with a gameplay as well.
Just because some someone is not good enough to certain move like Sub Zero OH or Scorpion teleport, that doesnt mean this move require a nerf or character are "so strong" or need balance.
I read a lot of crap like nerf his only safe string and make it heavily punishable, and the argument was, because Jade this and this string are not safe .....
You realize how dumb that sound ?
How in the blue hell you can even compare Jade to Sub Zero and overall gameplay?
So glad that games are not balanced by low-mid levels majority of the players, because there we have a broken game.
Game is balanced by top tier players, because then you can use character at 100% of their capabilities. And you can see which move is imbalanced and need balance and so on.

Some good and bad things about him:

Sub Zero have Low-Profiling Issues, and there is a lot of issue with that. There is a whole thread for it.
His attack are generally slow.
Hiz zoning is sh*** in both variation.
Ice ball is slow as f*, and i mean start up, and you need to be in long range(otherwise may eat a punish, cause his recovery), does no dmg(unless amplify) and you can amplify only on dead of winter.
The only fast string he have is 1,2, still slower than a lot of other characters punch string. Also have shit range.
His B1,4 have great range, its a high, slow start up, easy to block and it]s obvious as hell what you going to do if you are in range. Zero chance to surprise someone.
People that said he is easy to play and its make for newbie in the game dont know what their talking about.
Every combos that have jumps and dash and require to change sides and continuing combo are very hard and most importantly hard to do it constantly.

You can go out and watch pro players that use Sub Zero at his full potential and how many combos they drop, and its not because they are bad, but because combo are hard and you cant do it 100% of the time.


His KB are kinda okay, he have KB on throw, which is very good in the current throw meta. His FB is meh, range is okay, but its slow as f***, and 200% punishable.
His combo damage are okay.
He has + and - , but the character is really nothing special. Doesnt have enough diversity and if you learn that match up, he doesnt really have some strong points that can dominate or something that surprise you time after time.
He is probably the easiest character to play against if you learn how to play against him.

A lot of people here are babycrying of nerfing for character that is plaed a lot. But ninja characters(and most popular ones) will always be played the most by the base.
But in PRO competition he just sucks, kinda same goes for Scropion.

You are correct to say that Sub-Zero definitely doesn't require any nerfs, especially due to a 19-frame, easily-telegraphed overhead whose follow-ups are all fully-combo punished.

However, the suggestion that Sub-Zero needs a bunch of buffs for the reasons that you describe is equally ludicrous. The character is designed to be a mid-screen, whiff punishing character that supersedes zonings with his slide and iceball. He also has the ability to get full combos from both low and overhead starters, which makes him unique in this game. He doesn't need faster normals or for iceball to be a fast zoning tool because that's not his gameplan.

And don't be fooled by SonicFox's tier list - he is talking strictly about the tournament variations of Sub-Zero, which are weaker versions of him than the custom variations that many of us use. And even amongst tournament players, Sub-Zero is considered among the top 10 best characters in the game, and if not, he's like #11. The character is quite strong with notable weakness that a good player can overcome, especially if the more obnoxious characters are properly normalized. That is precisely how all characters should be; good enough to win with, but not good enough to dominate all other characters at the select screen.

Please don't spread fake news about this character - he really doesn't require any major adjustments at all.

 

[Sazbak]

The only buff Sub needs is to fix his d1 and b21 hitbox. Especially the d1.

 

[DrFolmer]

Did you even watch the video, SonicFox literaly show it like 572482747274 successively time, where he always reacted to it.
And there is a plenty of videos out there people react to it and punish it.
And you are going to tell me you know better than SonicFox which move is reactable and which is not? Is that you are trying to say?
And Ice Ball argument is how much his zoning sucks, no one is talking about do it in a combo.
Should i even trying to compare it to Liu Kang FIreball projectile, Cassie or someone else?

BTW, what is the best placement of Sub Zero in a major ?

I'm saying, SonicFox the analyst and SonicFox the player are two completely different entities. One is garbage, the other is GOAT. The video series of him reacting to it in practice doesnt prove anything when he literally one month later (at the tournament Kombat won) got hit by it under similar circumstances by Buffalo. If you can't react to it in a real match, it's not reactable, period - unless he intentionally gets hit by it for next level strats.

Buffalo got 9th at CEO tied with Deoxys, Grr, DJT. That's no small feat.

Ice Ball is a counter zoning tool. Of course it's not supposed to be fast and hit mid. You're supposed to look at your opponents patterns, time your ice ball with his projectile, trade and get your full combo, which leads to them being discouraged from throwing projectiles, and that's where you can get in and apply staggers and mixups. You can also zone with it after enforcing respect, and depending on how they approach you can delay ice ball and catch them out of the air or bait a jump into b2. If you think Sub has a bad neutral you need to reevaluate the way you're playing the character.

Sonic said Darkseid was top 3 in Injustice...

 

[M.D.]

Did you even watch the video, SonicFox literaly show it like 572482747274 successively time, where he always reacted to it.
And there is a plenty of videos out there people react to it and punish it.
And you are going to tell me you know better than SonicFox which move is reactable and which is not? Is that you are trying to say?
And Ice Ball argument is how much his zoning sucks, no one is talking about do it in a combo.
Should i even trying to compare it to Liu Kang FIreball projectile, Cassie or someone else?

BTW, what is the best placement of Sub Zero in a major ?

1. I watched sonic's video and it's bullshit, since he didn't set the dummy to also throw, which makes the entire thing irrelevant.

2. Buffalo, who beat Scar WITH SUBZERO!!!!!,, said nobody reacted to the overhead. NOBODY. Not even Sonic Fox.

Scar = GOD.
Buffalo > Scar
Buffalo > GOD
SUBZERO > GOD

Conclusion: Overhead is unreactable . Q.e.d.


3. And YES, obviously i know better than Sonic Fox which move is reactable, LOL. It's not NASA landing a rocket on an asteroid you know, it's 3rd grade math.


It's the same discusison from MKX with Sub's broken b2 back then which was 18 frames and nobody reacted to it ,except sub mains who qqed they couldn't freespam guess their combos.

Nerf that pos overhead into the ground.

 

[Orochi]

Thinking about picking up Sub, what's his best variation?

 

[DrFolmer]

Thinking about picking up Sub, what's his best variation?

The custom one with Amp iceball and slide lul.

Probably Thin Ice. Sliding under projectiles on reaction is huge

 

[lordlosh]

mrapchem i never said Sub-Zero need to be nerfed. I said if anything(if decide to touch anything on the char) he needs a buff, not a nerf.

And the move i recite was not to said they need a buff, but that they are not overpowered, and some of them are nothing special.

DrFolmer, forgive me to believe the SonicFox "analyst" more than i will believe in you. Still pretty sure he knows a lot more than any of us combine.
And the reason you get hit by some move, no matter which, the reason alone is not because the move is reactable or not. This could be one of the reason, but there could be a lot more.
You may want to attack in that situation or to have other thing in minds and suddenly you get hit by the attack.
And the same Buffalo lose so bad everytime he face SonicFox it aint even funny. And every Sub-Zero player in that manner. So yeah SonicFox obviously know how to play against that character, so he obviously know better than you that character.

M.D., yeah this was the best thing Buffalo done so far in his MK11 stage. Beating Scar, who played the whole tournament really bad.
He lost also to Kevoxreborn, is that mean:
Kevoxreborn > SCAR?
Kevoxreborn > GOD?
This wasnt Scar tournament at all, and he wasnt playing his main for some reason. Tho he is playing Scorpion a lot lately.
And BTW plenty major have past, how many Sub Zero made it top 8?

SonicFox video is a living proof, as much as you dont like it, just because you cant react and you are bad against some move, doesnt mean others are like that.
He shows plenty 3 or 4 videos in which he react 100% to that move.
BTW, SonicFox in matches is hit by Jump attacks, by projectiles, and by many, many moves, is that mean they are all non reactable?

 

[Zer0_h0ur]

The fact that Buffalo could handle Scar so easily is really all you need to know regarding Sub's OH

 

[M.D.]

It doesn't matter if Buffalo loses to Sonic Fox each time, it matters that each time Sonic Fox DOESN'T REACT to the overhead.

Also "Still pretty sure he knows a lot more than any of us combine. "

LoL NO.

Knowing and Doing are two different things.

Everyone knows the rules to Snooker and exactly what should be done in each situation. The pro players just execute the moves better, but even the grocery store clerk knows how the streak should go in any given time.

This game is NOT rocket science lol, frame data is kid math.

Sorry to break it to you but A SHIT LOAD of people know more than sonic fox at this game.

Knowing the game has nothing to do with playing the game.

 

[Orochi]

The fact that Buffalo could handle Scar so easily is really all you need to know regarding Sub's OH

Only because I'm looking up top sub zero gameplay to learn the character but I found a ft20 set between raptor and buffalo and raptor seems to have a more solid scorpion than scars so I think buffalo was way too ready for this match up.

 

[Zer0_h0ur]

Only because I'm looking up top sub zero gameplay to learn the character but I found a ft20 set between raptor and buffalo and raptor seems to have a more solid scorpion than scars so I think buffalo was way too ready for this match up.

Scar's scorpion is def not that good amongst elite players, record speaks for itself, but from a pure reactionary standpoint Scar is pretty much as elite as you can get and you're not gonna tell me he doesn't know the basics of the SZ matchup.

On a side note, really not sure why Scar ever goes with Reborn, lol

 

[lordlosh]

It doesn't matter if Buffalo loses to Sonic Fox each time, it matters that each time Sonic Fox DOESN'T REACT to the overhead.

Not ture. Proof with video its up there. Everyone can see it. You can deny it as much as you want, the evidence is there. Its no one problem your reaction are bad.
But i love to plays with argument and facts, so here is another proof that you can react on it.
On the video you can clearly see how SonicFox expect a lows attack and crouch, but he sees the OH and react to, goes up and block the attack and punish after it:
Here is it:
https://cdn-b-east.streamable.com/video/mp4/bhnr0.mp4?token=kW_Gwg2l0m5G5mEoPVh0wQ&expires=1563986220

Sorry to break it to you but A SHIT LOAD of people know more than sonic fox at this game.

Yeah im pretty sure in that.
SonicFox is the best analyst player out there. His career so far shows us this perfectly. If you dont know what i`m talking about, we are watching/playing different games.

 

[Enexemander]

Sub's overhead is reactable if you're offline and the overhead or low is the only option you're looking for. In practice mode, you can do this consistently. In a real match? Pros get hit by it all the time. It doesn't matter if Scar was on his main. Blocking is the same across the cast...

If you watch Daigo, he talks about this. If there are other options to look for, then it starts adding frames for your brain to decide between the multiple options. If the animation is ambiguous on start up, it takes more frames to react to it, etc.

At the end of the day, in tournament and offline, top players aren't consistently reacting to it. I don't think it even needs a nerf. You can react to it offline, but it's very difficult and you have to make a read they're only going to do overhead or low. You're better off spacing yourself to where one or the other is the only real option. If you eat a jump in that's your fault for not anti-airing.

 

[lordlosh]

So the suggestion to nerf Sub Zero OH have completely zero sense. Then he will have just 1 attack option and you very well may delete that character. Thanks GOD games are not balanced by low tier players or the crying comments of some people.
Enexemander i like your post, but again just like i said in my previous post, just because you didnt block and get hit by some move, doesnt mean they arent reactable.
Also there is a different people and different reaction. Plenty of guys cant react to throws, plenty can tech them.
I know blocking is the same, but my point was Scar was not on point in the whole tournament. He is not on point anything past Combo Breaker.
I give props for Buffalo(and i like him very much as a player), but Scar lost because he have a bad day. His reaction was not on point, his whole play was not on point.
You understand that you have a days, where your reaction could be a lot slower than usual.
And to answer the M.D. math things, there is a thing called animation, that plays huge parts if you can react or not to some move.

 

[DrFolmer]

You may want to attack in that situation or to have other thing in minds and suddenly you get hit by the attack.

Yes, pressing buttons after a blocked jump in is something pro players do despite being minus a gazillion and you literally have to hold it. Bruv come on it's getting ridiculous

Still pretty sure he knows a lot more than any of us combine.

He said Darkseid was top 3, but basically used him for a week and you never saw him again because he got blown up on a read. Sonic's tier lists do not represent what the large majority of pros feel, and he plays the characters that are in fact placed very high on the lists of others than on his own.

This wasnt Scar tournament at all, and he wasnt playing his main for some reason

... Sub's ice ball prevents her from doing what she wants to do, and Sub has better footsies. I can see it being one of Sonya's suboptimal matchups, thats why you dont see him use Sonya

And Scar plays a damn fine Reborn, and it was a big part of his succes at Combo Breaker

but Scar lost because he have a bad day

Sigh, really man?

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

This character needs to be redone and not be the MKX holdover trash that he currently is.

Regardless of how "good" or "bad" he is..... the defining thing is that he is LITERALLY the most unfun character to face off against.

 

[lordlosh]

So you are saying SonicFox doesnt know much of this game, because before x time he said that some character is top 3 ?
You understand how this sound?

There isnt anyone out there close to know what SonicFox knows about this game. And its that from the very begining. He was simply showing and telling everyone how to play the game and certain characters.
You know how many pros goes and asking him advice and how to play certain character ? The list for people that want to train with him and people that SonicFox helps get better at this game is just huge.

And how should i take anyone opinion on the tier list(eve if they are pros), when they change their tier list like in 1 or 2 months.
When SonicFox was playing Erron he was at the top of like 99% people tier list. Then its come Jacqui. And finally Cassie, and she was a lot lower in a lot of people tier list, before SonicFox shows them what she can do. And its not funny how many people including pros and in here were saying how sh** YAAS Queen is, and everything has changed when SonicFox shows how she needs to be played.

And btw you need to just watch one tournament for example CEO2019 to understand how in depth SonicFox knows this game.
You cant beat this dude 2 time in a row. You beat him 3-0, then he comes from loser and annihilate the whole scene.
Dragon beats him 3-0, SonicFox obviously analyze what Dragon was doing right and what he was doing wrong and not only reset, but beat him one more time with 3-1 to win the tournament.
And he has done that so many, many times.

So if that is not a prove how much someone knows this game i don`t know what is it.

And again:
But i love to plays with argument and facts, so here is another proof that you can react on it.
On the video you can clearly see how SonicFox expect a lows attack and crouch, but he sees the OH and react to, goes up and block the attack and punish after it:
Here is it:
https://cdn-b-east.streamable.com/video/mp4/bhnr0.mp4?token=kW_Gwg2l0m5G5mEoPVh0wQ&expires=1563986220
And one more from the same match, 100% the same:
https://streamable.com/s0d34
Third one:
https://streamable.com/k6sf0

 

[mrapchem]

mrapchem i never said Sub-Zero need to be nerfed. I said if anything(if decide to touch anything on the char) he needs a buff, not a nerf.

And the move i recite was not to said they need a buff, but that they are not overpowered, and some of them are nothing special.

DrFolmer, forgive me to believe the SonicFox "analyst" more than i will believe in you. Still pretty sure he knows a lot more than any of us combine.
And the reason you get hit by some move, no matter which, the reason alone is not because the move is reactable or not. This could be one of the reason, but there could be a lot more.
You may want to attack in that situation or to have other thing in minds and suddenly you get hit by the attack.
And the same Buffalo lose so bad everytime he face SonicFox it aint even funny. And every Sub-Zero player in that manner. So yeah SonicFox obviously know how to play against that character, so he obviously know better than you that character.

M.D., yeah this was the best thing Buffalo done so far in his MK11 stage. Beating Scar, who played the whole tournament really bad.
He lost also to Kevoxreborn, is that mean:
Kevoxreborn > SCAR?
Kevoxreborn > GOD?
This wasnt Scar tournament at all, and he wasnt playing his main for some reason. Tho he is playing Scorpion a lot lately.
And BTW plenty major have past, how many Sub Zero made it top 8?

SonicFox video is a living proof, as much as you dont like it, just because you cant react and you are bad against some move, doesnt mean others are like that.
He shows plenty 3 or 4 videos in which he react 100% to that move.
BTW, SonicFox in matches is hit by Jump attacks, by projectiles, and by many, many moves, is that mean they are all non reactable?

Did you read my comment?? I acknowledged that you didn't call for any nerfs. I also stated that your idea of Sub needing to be buffed is foolish and then I gave my reasoning.

 

[lordlosh]

mrapchem its my bad i wanted to write "buffed" not nerfed.
I don`t call for a buff Sub-Zero. There is always going to be stronger and weaker character. The place Sub Zero is at the moment is okay. But to call for a nerf is a simply b.c.

 

[mrapchem]

mrapchem its my bad i wanted to write "buffed" not nerfed.
I don`t call for a buff Sub-Zero. There is always going to be stronger and weaker character. The place Sub Zero is at the moment is okay. But to call for a nerf is a simply b.c.

"If anything Sub Zero needs a buff, not a nerf. There is so many character that simply have free win against him."

You did say that, am I correct?