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Why Sub Zero Should Not Be Nerfed. The GrandMaster Speaks.

RM Ree

Shiba Tamer
Premium Supporter
So you admit your as smart as a mongrel ehhhh.... I ain't as dumb as someone defending ape shit in a fighting game. Literally, a monkey such as yourself can pick up a controller and play sub zero. Do something productive in your free time instead of playing a potato character, you payed $60 for this game so you can flip a coin. Do that with your own spare change, don't waiste my fucking time playing that character
Waste*
 

Endeavor

I'll live a villain, before I die a hero.
Premium Supporter
weren't you supposed to make that video of yourself reacting to a PRE-SET pattern of sub zero lol. When's that video dropping. And since your reactions are so godlike in practice mode, can you also please make a video of yourself reacting to errons drop kick! I'm sure if you have no problem reacting to sub zero, you should react to erron. Bc isn't thats what practice mode is? Keep beleiving practice mode is like playing a real match!
Practice mode is there to discover your options in a situation and train other things NOT JUST LEARN COMBOS. Your actually not using the feature correctly if you think for a second you can’t train a reaction in training mode and it transfer to a real match. And as I said before when I make the video I will NOT be the one making the patterns and I will still block said overhead. Also my man, since you seem to have all the answers outside of NRS games what other fighting games do you play and how long have you been playing them for?
 
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Endeavor

I'll live a villain, before I die a hero.
Premium Supporter
Are you calling me a scrub?

It's a coinflip, ie 50/50s.

In fighting games, I practice by playing matches against other players. The only thing I use practice mode for is learning the bread and butter strings and combos. Claiming that using practice mode against the AI will help you against a good Sub Zero player is like saying punching the heavy bag will prepare you for an actual fight in a boxing ring.
So just so we are clear you do know that if I train a reaction, it’s no longer a “coin flip” right? As for your analogy boxers spend tons of of hours hitting the heavy bag to improve striking power and accuracy, footwork and speed, as well as stamina and focus just an FYI. And if you think that training mode is only used to practice combos and bread and butters your not only going to get freed up but subzero weather he’s top 5 or bottom 3, your going to get freed up by basically any player running something on you weather it’s real or not.
 

Endeavor

I'll live a villain, before I die a hero.
Premium Supporter
Sonic literally just said Sub-Zero is trash on his stream. He has him in B tier. (out of S S- A+ A A- and then finally B) I guess he’s a pretty good player and might know what he’s talking about?
Really, that’s interesting cause some just told me yesterday that Sonic said that Sub zero was OP and needed to be nerfed huh, and I’m hear that he didn’t say that. What do you know. I thought it was strange that he would want Sub to get nerfed in this game since he posted a video of him REACTING to subs overhead and stated his top 5 on stream at summit of time which subzero was not in. But he still asked for the character to be nerfed. Interesting....
 

seanpon

Noob
Practice mode is there to discover your options in a situation and train other things NOT JUST LEARN COMBOS. Your actually not using the feature correctly if you think for a second you can’t train a reaction in training mode and it transfer to a real match. And as I said before when I make the video I will NOT be the one making the patterns and I will still block said overhead. Also my man, since you seem to have all the answers outside of NRS games what other fighting games do you play and how long have you been playing them for?
In any of my posts i never insinuated that I have answers outside of NRS games, i'm not sure where this is coming from. I mostly stick to NRS games, and play some tekken. I never even said I have answers to all problems in NRS games. I'm just making the case that sub zero needs to be nerfed, that would just be better for the entire game.
 
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xenogorgeous

Seriously .... really ?
Premium Supporter
Really, that’s interesting cause some just told me yesterday that Sonic said that Sub zero was OP and needed to be nerfed huh, and I’m hear that he didn’t say that. What do you know. I thought it was strange that he would want Sub to get nerfed in this game since he posted a video of him REACTING to subs overhead and stated his top 5 on stream at summit of time which subzero was not in. But he still asked for the character to be nerfed. Interesting....
yeah, that's why we have to wait for combo breaker and evo, to see if this is true or not .... if majority of professional players feel this after 2 great major tourneys, ok, could be relevant to nerf Subby .... until there, any isolated opinion from pros means jack shit :D
 

Sazbak

Noob
What exactly should be nerfed btw? People are reacting to his OH in offline games.
I honestly don't know why people think also we want this character dead.

Slowing the overhead by a couple of frames to make it 22 to 24 won't kill him.
My friends are pretty consistently reacting to the OH in offline games.
Also if you slow down the OH at least it should be safe on block/hitconfirmable into iceball.
A 24f OH that leads to unsafe strings and that OH itself being -3 ON HIT is a joke.
 

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
So basically the idea is to not play online at all versus Subzero got it.

Also reacting, LOL, they're not reacting, they're guessing and having good luck.
 

mrapchem

Noob
I'm pretty sure a scrub only mains and defends broken characters because without them they would be back in disability, those broken characters are like krutches for them. People in this thread are even complaining that sub zero needs buffs... LOL. So let me get this straight, you payed $60 of your own money so you could pretty much do with what you can with a coin. Instead of playing sub zero, just flip a damn coin and get excited everytime you guess right. Your literally not doing anything by opening up someone with a 50/50 vortex. Your literally just acting like a fraud thinking you "opened" someone up when the character just has stupid ass mechanics.
"Payed" isn't a word. I think the word you're looking for is 'paid', which is spelled P-A-I-D. And no, I don't just main Sub-Zero, but he is my favorite character whom I play in every MK, whether he's high, mid or low tier. I also play about 4 other characters, most of whom don't require 50/50s to win with.

Again, I'm willing to prove that I don't need a mix to whoop a scrub like you - I will fight you with Johnny Cage or Liu Kang or one of my other non-50/50 having characters. You wouldn't know what to do against a Sub-Zero like mine because you wouldn't even be able to get past my lesser mains!

Do you accept, or do you yield like a punk?
 
Sonic literally just said Sub-Zero is trash on his stream. He has him in B tier. (out of S S- A+ A A- and then finally B) I guess he’s a pretty good player and might know what he’s talking about?
Well, that is because despite Sub-Zero's counter zoning (Deep Freeze) and his mix-up versatility to combo from LOW or OVERHEAD (spends a bar also):

• His damage is certainly not desirable, very rarely hitting 30% for his 1 bar combos midscreen. Don't even need to elaborate on this part.

• Doesn't have a fast/damaging fullscreen projectile for zoning and chip (eg. Sonya's rings, Baraka's sparks, LiuKang's fireballs, KungLao's hat that can even be angled to hit MID etc). A fairly large portion of tournament matches usually happens fullscreen, where all the zoning and Geras' annoying sand grab takes place. From that kind of distance, Sub-Zero can't really do much, except try to close the gap inch by inch, or fire his iceball and ice cubes and hope they connect, which also deal low chip damage and have slow startup. Players usually will want to conserve their precious meter for kombo extensions, hence DoW Sub-Zero players will only use amplified Ice Ball if they are close enough to kombo into the enemy once they are frozen, or as a last resort to counter-zone far away opponents.

• No enhanced mobility tools like teleport (eg Kung Lao, Raiden, Kollector), teleport attacks (eg. Scorpion, Noob, Geras), air dash or pounce attacks (eg. Kitana's butt move, KungLao's Dive Kick, Jacqui's Dive Bomb), or even air retreat tools (eg. Cassie Cage). Sub-Zero has none of those, he just a cold potato, or a stationary block of ice in the arena. This limits Sub-Zero's one-dimensional and predictable playstyle, who is just walk, block and crouch.

• Lack of special moves, hence lack of versatility in offense, defense and utility.

I feel that what makes a character worth playing and learning is his/her damage output, zoning ability, mobility and abundance of special moves. If you have a mix of these four important things, the character is desirable.

eg1. Searing Rage Scorpion. If a character has 2 kombo extending special moves by DEFAULT, you know that the character is going to be good. While he has no zoning capabilities, he is very fast, has above average damage output (buffed up ever since the beta), mix-ups (plentiful of LOW and OVERHEAD mix-ups in his strings) and mobility/unpredictability that complements his speed (teleport attack). His variation special moves grant him a damage buff to his spear attacks, added spear kombo strings that further complement his mix-up game, and a sick-looking kombo ender which grants added reach to his attacks. I remember the time where people whine that Scorpion's going to be trash in tournaments since he won't have his Misery Blade or his Demon Dash, and look how wrong those whiners are. Scorpion is straightforward and fairy easy to pick up, making him a choice pick in all game modes.

eg2. Sonya. While she is like Sub-Zero in terms of mobility who can also only walk/block/crouch (in her case, a hot blonde potato), she has the insane damage output, the mix-ups (overheads and lows in her kombo strings + Leg Breaker LOW kombo ender), her energy ring zoning (fast startup, fast projectile speed, can even be cast mid-air), and lastly abundance of special moves (projectiles, air grab that launches when amplified, Ass Whoopin' kombo ender). And these are all from just DEFAULT Sonya. Through variations she can get more options, including more tech for her energy rings and an OVERHEAD ranged attack in one variation, or another Anti-Air Grab and standing or crouching Parries in her other variation. This is why Sonya is highly favored in tournaments, her kit has almost everything. Sonya mains should be very thankful that her default air grab is able to kombo extend when amplified, something that is not possible when Sonya was initially showcased during the reveal event in January.

eg3. Hat Trick Kung Lao. People often say Kung Lao is low tier due to his unsafe strings. However, if I were to look at him overall, he is actually quite good. He has the speed, damage output and most importantly, the zoning (his hat deals great chip & can even be angled up or down, making his zoning chip more reliable). His mix-up game is not that strong, but he makes up for it with his mobility and abundance of special moves (Air Dive Kick, Teleport attacks with MID/OVERHEAD/THROW mix-ups and can also be used mid-air, Z Hat which has very slow startup but has ridiculous plus frames on block when amplified; usually used as a set-up or pressure tool) Predictions, learning of matchups and reaction time are more important than mere numbers and frame data on paper. Hence, Kung Lao deals great damage, has a reliable zoning tool and is versatile in his approach to the opponent, making him a pretty great character in my book.

eg4. Geras. You know what, fk this guy lets move on. Annoying ass character lol.

Then you look at Sub-Zero. By default, he only has 2 special moves, and you cannot even amplify Ice Ball. In DoW, you "upgrade" Slide to Cold Shoulder and gain the amplified option for Ice Ball (grants Overhead kombos), rounding up his number of special moves to ONLY TWO. At this point, he definitely doesn't seem as appealing as the characters mentioned above, does he? Damage output is lower than expected, poor zoning ability, zero mobility, no variety of special moves (it's just toss ice cubes or charge forward). Although he has the mix-up utility and is pretty dangerous up close, he doesnt have the damage and range aspect to make him as scary as characters like Sonya and Geras from anywhere on the arena, nor the mobility and unpredictability of Scorpion or Kung Lao. He has the counter-zoning option here, but its high risk, high reward. If your opponent manages to condition himself/herself in predicting correctly and block your amplified ice ball, a bar of meter is wasted. Not to mention DoW Sub-Zero players tend to spam Amp Ice Ball after using F2 (his overhead starter) thinking that F2 will connect. Hence, they just lose a bar of meter just like that when the opponent blocks and then they punish you up close with a full kombo to your face.

His other variation grants him (cant be amplified) projectiles and Slide, but he loses the Overhead kombo starter from Amp Ice Ball. He deals even lower damage in this variation (Sub-Zero can only amplify Slide in this variation) and loses the Overhead Kombo Starter option. While the Polar Axe is a fantastic addition for midrange zoning, his other two projectiles have very slow startup (36 frames). His Frigid Storm (fullscreen projectile) is a joke when you compare it to every other fullscreen projectile in the game. Most of the time, health trade from fullscreen is disadvantageous as your opponent will tag you with his/her projectile and then even block your Frigid Storm. You may not even have the time to launch your projectile due to its hefty startup. Death-cicle is great and mostly situational, but can be effectively utilized when used correctly, such as pressuring opponents in the corner or punishing dashing in opponents from a fair distance.

In conclusion, while Sub-Zero is a good fighter and definitely a formidable opponent up close or in the midrange, he is definitely not omnipotent. His tournament damage is lacking, his zoning ability at fullscreen is bad (marginally improved in Thin Ice), has poor mobility and lack of special moves, thus I understand why tournament players and even ranked players gravitate to other characters who have "fuller" kits, even those who may be deemed lower tier but are actually more appealing in terms of versatility/mobility/zoning/damage (most important factor), while also retaining the close combat and mix-up aspect. Some key examples include Baraka, Kitana, Liu Kang, even Jacqui (limited zoning tho), just to name a few.

I hope NRS gives Sub-Zero a new tournament variation with Rising Ice (his core kombo tool to buff kombo damage, and is also able to kombo from overhead F2), so that the incessant whining from losers will then actually become legit. Cheers!
 

mrapchem

Noob
Well, that is because despite Sub-Zero's counter zoning (Deep Freeze) and his mix-up versatility to combo from LOW or OVERHEAD (spends a bar also):

• His damage is certainly not desirable, very rarely hitting 30% for his 1 bar combos midscreen. Don't even need to elaborate on this part.

• Doesn't have a fast/damaging fullscreen projectile for zoning and chip (eg. Sonya's rings, Baraka's sparks, LiuKang's fireballs, KungLao's hat that can even be angled to hit MID etc). A fairly large portion of tournament matches usually happens fullscreen, where all the zoning and Geras' annoying sand grab takes place. From that kind of distance, Sub-Zero can't really do much, except try to close the gap inch by inch, or fire his iceball and ice cubes and hope they connect, which also deal low chip damage and have slow startup. Players usually will want to conserve their precious meter for kombo extensions, hence DoW Sub-Zero players will only use amplified Ice Ball if they are close enough to kombo into the enemy once they are frozen, or as a last resort to counter-zone far away opponents.

• No enhanced mobility tools like teleport (eg Kung Lao, Raiden, Kollector), teleport attacks (eg. Scorpion, Noob, Geras), air dash or pounce attacks (eg. Kitana's butt move, KungLao's Dive Kick, Jacqui's Dive Bomb), or even air retreat tools (eg. Cassie Cage). Sub-Zero has none of those, he just a cold potato, or a stationary block of ice in the arena. This limits Sub-Zero's one-dimensional and predictable playstyle, who is just walk, block and crouch.

• Lack of special moves, hence lack of versatility in offense, defense and utility.

I feel that what makes a character worth playing and learning is his/her damage output, zoning ability, mobility and abundance of special moves. If you have a mix of these four important things, the character is desirable.

eg1. Searing Rage Scorpion. If a character has 2 kombo extending special moves by DEFAULT, you know that the character is going to be good. While he has no zoning capabilities, he is very fast, has above average damage output (buffed up ever since the beta), mix-ups (plentiful of LOW and OVERHEAD mix-ups in his strings) and mobility/unpredictability that complements his speed (teleport attack). His variation special moves grant him a damage buff to his spear attacks, added spear kombo strings that further complement his mix-up game, and a sick-looking kombo ender which grants added reach to his attacks. I remember the time where people whine that Scorpion's going to be trash in tournaments since he won't have his Misery Blade or his Demon Dash, and look how wrong those whiners are. Scorpion is straightforward and fairy easy to pick up, making him a choice pick in all game modes.

eg2. Sonya. While she is like Sub-Zero in terms of mobility who can also only walk/block/crouch (in her case, a hot blonde potato), she has the insane damage output, the mix-ups (overheads and lows in her kombo strings + Leg Breaker LOW kombo ender), her energy ring zoning (fast startup, fast projectile speed, can even be cast mid-air), and lastly abundance of special moves (projectiles, air grab that launches when amplified, Ass Whoopin' kombo ender). And these are all from just DEFAULT Sonya. Through variations she can get more options, including more tech for her energy rings and an OVERHEAD ranged attack in one variation, or another Anti-Air Grab and standing or crouching Parries in her other variation. This is why Sonya is highly favored in tournaments, her kit has almost everything. Sonya mains should be very thankful that her default air grab is able to kombo extend when amplified, something that is not possible when Sonya was initially showcased during the reveal event in January.

eg3. Hat Trick Kung Lao. People often say Kung Lao is low tier due to his unsafe strings. However, if I were to look at him overall, he is actually quite good. He has the speed, damage output and most importantly, the zoning (his hat deals great chip & can even be angled up or down, making his zoning chip more reliable). His mix-up game is not that strong, but he makes up for it with his mobility and abundance of special moves (Air Dive Kick, Teleport attacks with MID/OVERHEAD/THROW mix-ups and can also be used mid-air, Z Hat which has very slow startup but has ridiculous plus frames on block when amplified; usually used as a set-up or pressure tool) Predictions, learning of matchups and reaction time are more important than mere numbers and frame data on paper. Hence, Kung Lao deals great damage, has a reliable zoning tool and is versatile in his approach to the opponent, making him a pretty great character in my book.

eg4. Geras. You know what, fk this guy lets move on. Annoying ass character lol.

Then you look at Sub-Zero. By default, he only has 2 special moves, and you cannot even amplify Ice Ball. In DoW, you "upgrade" Slide to Cold Shoulder and gain the amplified option for Ice Ball (grants Overhead kombos), rounding up his number of special moves to ONLY TWO. At this point, he definitely doesn't seem as appealing as the characters mentioned above, does he? Damage output is lower than expected, poor zoning ability, zero mobility, no variety of special moves (it's just toss ice cubes or charge forward). Although he has the mix-up utility and is pretty dangerous up close, he doesnt have the damage and range aspect to make him as scary as characters like Sonya and Geras from anywhere on the arena, nor the mobility and unpredictability of Scorpion or Kung Lao. He has the counter-zoning option here, but its high risk, high reward. If your opponent manages to condition himself/herself in predicting correctly and block your amplified ice ball, a bar of meter is wasted. Not to mention DoW Sub-Zero players tend to spam Amp Ice Ball after using F2 (his overhead starter) thinking that F2 will connect. Hence, they just lose a bar of meter just like that when the opponent blocks and then they punish you up close with a full kombo to your face.

His other variation grants him (cant be amplified) projectiles and Slide, but he loses the Overhead kombo starter from Amp Ice Ball. He deals even lower damage in this variation (Sub-Zero can only amplify Slide in this variation) and loses the Overhead Kombo Starter option. While the Polar Axe is a fantastic addition for midrange zoning, his other two projectiles have very slow startup (36 frames). His Frigid Storm (fullscreen projectile) is a joke when you compare it to every other fullscreen projectile in the game. Most of the time, health trade from fullscreen is disadvantageous as your opponent will tag you with his/her projectile and then even block your Frigid Storm. You may not even have the time to launch your projectile due to its hefty startup. Death-cicle is great and mostly situational, but can be effectively utilized when used correctly, such as pressuring opponents in the corner or punishing dashing in opponents from a fair distance.

In conclusion, while Sub-Zero is a good fighter and definitely a formidable opponent up close or in the midrange, he is definitely not omnipotent. His tournament damage is lacking, his zoning ability at fullscreen is bad (marginally improved in Thin Ice), has poor mobility and lack of special moves, thus I understand why tournament players and even ranked players gravitate to other characters who have "fuller" kits, even those who may be deemed lower tier but are actually more appealing in terms of versatility/mobility/zoning/damage (most important factor), while also retaining the close combat and mix-up aspect. Some key examples include Baraka, Kitana, Liu Kang, even Jacqui (limited zoning tho), just to name a few.

I hope NRS gives Sub-Zero a new tournament variation with Rising Ice (his core kombo tool to buff kombo damage, and is also able to kombo from overhead F2), so that the incessant whining from losers will then actually become legit. Cheers!
Thank you so much for detailing all of this - it is the exact truth about Sub-Zero. Now, I wonder how long it's gonna take a Sub hater to quote either your analysis or my response and say something dumb.
 

Endeavor

I'll live a villain, before I die a hero.
Premium Supporter
In any of my posts i never insinuated that I have answers outside of NRS games, i'm not sure where this is coming from. I mostly stick to NRS games, and play some tekken. I never even said I have answers to all problems in NRS games. I'm just making the case that sub zero needs to be nerfed, that would just be better for the entire game.
And that explains everything about your mentality. And why you’d only think that training mode is just for combos. I play multiple fighting games across the board. I have played EVERY NRS game since MK9, Uniel and Unist, SF4 and SF5, as well as BlazBlue and DBZF. If you think the best players in ANY of those games save for MK9 cause it’s training mode was actual trash, only use training mode to practice combos and BNBs your sadly mistaken and will ALWAYS lose against ANY mid level or higher player because they will quickly figure out you don’t actually know what they are doing is fake or unsafe. It doesn’t matter if the character is busted, strong, weak, or just plain gimmicky, you’ll almost always get killed reguardless of how strong that character actually is.
 
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mrapchem

Noob
And that explains everything about your mentality. And why you’d only think that training mode is just for combos. I play multiple fighting games across the board. I have played EVERY NRS game since MK9, Uniel and Unist, SF4 and SF5, as well as BlazBlue and DBZF. If you think the best players in ANY of those games save for MK9 cause it’s training mode was actual trash, only use training mode to practice combos and BNBs your sadly mistake and will ALWAYS lose against ANY mid level or higher player because they will quickly figure out you don’t actually know what they are doing is fake or unsafe. It doesn’t matter if the character is busted, strong, weak, or just plain gimmicky, you’ll almost always get killed reguardless of how strong that character actually is.
It certainly explains why he's ducking me! Your analysis is spot-on. Thank you!
 

xenogorgeous

Seriously .... really ?
Premium Supporter
Well, that is because despite Sub-Zero's counter zoning (Deep Freeze) and his mix-up versatility to combo from LOW or OVERHEAD (spends a bar also):

• His damage is certainly not desirable, very rarely hitting 30% for his 1 bar combos midscreen. Don't even need to elaborate on this part.

• Doesn't have a fast/damaging fullscreen projectile for zoning and chip (eg. Sonya's rings, Baraka's sparks, LiuKang's fireballs, KungLao's hat that can even be angled to hit MID etc). A fairly large portion of tournament matches usually happens fullscreen, where all the zoning and Geras' annoying sand grab takes place. From that kind of distance, Sub-Zero can't really do much, except try to close the gap inch by inch, or fire his iceball and ice cubes and hope they connect, which also deal low chip damage and have slow startup. Players usually will want to conserve their precious meter for kombo extensions, hence DoW Sub-Zero players will only use amplified Ice Ball if they are close enough to kombo into the enemy once they are frozen, or as a last resort to counter-zone far away opponents.

• No enhanced mobility tools like teleport (eg Kung Lao, Raiden, Kollector), teleport attacks (eg. Scorpion, Noob, Geras), air dash or pounce attacks (eg. Kitana's butt move, KungLao's Dive Kick, Jacqui's Dive Bomb), or even air retreat tools (eg. Cassie Cage). Sub-Zero has none of those, he just a cold potato, or a stationary block of ice in the arena. This limits Sub-Zero's one-dimensional and predictable playstyle, who is just walk, block and crouch.

• Lack of special moves, hence lack of versatility in offense, defense and utility.

I feel that what makes a character worth playing and learning is his/her damage output, zoning ability, mobility and abundance of special moves. If you have a mix of these four important things, the character is desirable.

eg1. Searing Rage Scorpion. If a character has 2 kombo extending special moves by DEFAULT, you know that the character is going to be good. While he has no zoning capabilities, he is very fast, has above average damage output (buffed up ever since the beta), mix-ups (plentiful of LOW and OVERHEAD mix-ups in his strings) and mobility/unpredictability that complements his speed (teleport attack). His variation special moves grant him a damage buff to his spear attacks, added spear kombo strings that further complement his mix-up game, and a sick-looking kombo ender which grants added reach to his attacks. I remember the time where people whine that Scorpion's going to be trash in tournaments since he won't have his Misery Blade or his Demon Dash, and look how wrong those whiners are. Scorpion is straightforward and fairy easy to pick up, making him a choice pick in all game modes.

eg2. Sonya. While she is like Sub-Zero in terms of mobility who can also only walk/block/crouch (in her case, a hot blonde potato), she has the insane damage output, the mix-ups (overheads and lows in her kombo strings + Leg Breaker LOW kombo ender), her energy ring zoning (fast startup, fast projectile speed, can even be cast mid-air), and lastly abundance of special moves (projectiles, air grab that launches when amplified, Ass Whoopin' kombo ender). And these are all from just DEFAULT Sonya. Through variations she can get more options, including more tech for her energy rings and an OVERHEAD ranged attack in one variation, or another Anti-Air Grab and standing or crouching Parries in her other variation. This is why Sonya is highly favored in tournaments, her kit has almost everything. Sonya mains should be very thankful that her default air grab is able to kombo extend when amplified, something that is not possible when Sonya was initially showcased during the reveal event in January.

eg3. Hat Trick Kung Lao. People often say Kung Lao is low tier due to his unsafe strings. However, if I were to look at him overall, he is actually quite good. He has the speed, damage output and most importantly, the zoning (his hat deals great chip & can even be angled up or down, making his zoning chip more reliable). His mix-up game is not that strong, but he makes up for it with his mobility and abundance of special moves (Air Dive Kick, Teleport attacks with MID/OVERHEAD/THROW mix-ups and can also be used mid-air, Z Hat which has very slow startup but has ridiculous plus frames on block when amplified; usually used as a set-up or pressure tool) Predictions, learning of matchups and reaction time are more important than mere numbers and frame data on paper. Hence, Kung Lao deals great damage, has a reliable zoning tool and is versatile in his approach to the opponent, making him a pretty great character in my book.

eg4. Geras. You know what, fk this guy lets move on. Annoying ass character lol.

Then you look at Sub-Zero. By default, he only has 2 special moves, and you cannot even amplify Ice Ball. In DoW, you "upgrade" Slide to Cold Shoulder and gain the amplified option for Ice Ball (grants Overhead kombos), rounding up his number of special moves to ONLY TWO. At this point, he definitely doesn't seem as appealing as the characters mentioned above, does he? Damage output is lower than expected, poor zoning ability, zero mobility, no variety of special moves (it's just toss ice cubes or charge forward). Although he has the mix-up utility and is pretty dangerous up close, he doesnt have the damage and range aspect to make him as scary as characters like Sonya and Geras from anywhere on the arena, nor the mobility and unpredictability of Scorpion or Kung Lao. He has the counter-zoning option here, but its high risk, high reward. If your opponent manages to condition himself/herself in predicting correctly and block your amplified ice ball, a bar of meter is wasted. Not to mention DoW Sub-Zero players tend to spam Amp Ice Ball after using F2 (his overhead starter) thinking that F2 will connect. Hence, they just lose a bar of meter just like that when the opponent blocks and then they punish you up close with a full kombo to your face.

His other variation grants him (cant be amplified) projectiles and Slide, but he loses the Overhead kombo starter from Amp Ice Ball. He deals even lower damage in this variation (Sub-Zero can only amplify Slide in this variation) and loses the Overhead Kombo Starter option. While the Polar Axe is a fantastic addition for midrange zoning, his other two projectiles have very slow startup (36 frames). His Frigid Storm (fullscreen projectile) is a joke when you compare it to every other fullscreen projectile in the game. Most of the time, health trade from fullscreen is disadvantageous as your opponent will tag you with his/her projectile and then even block your Frigid Storm. You may not even have the time to launch your projectile due to its hefty startup. Death-cicle is great and mostly situational, but can be effectively utilized when used correctly, such as pressuring opponents in the corner or punishing dashing in opponents from a fair distance.

In conclusion, while Sub-Zero is a good fighter and definitely a formidable opponent up close or in the midrange, he is definitely not omnipotent. His tournament damage is lacking, his zoning ability at fullscreen is bad (marginally improved in Thin Ice), has poor mobility and lack of special moves, thus I understand why tournament players and even ranked players gravitate to other characters who have "fuller" kits, even those who may be deemed lower tier but are actually more appealing in terms of versatility/mobility/zoning/damage (most important factor), while also retaining the close combat and mix-up aspect. Some key examples include Baraka, Kitana, Liu Kang, even Jacqui (limited zoning tho), just to name a few.

I hope NRS gives Sub-Zero a new tournament variation with Rising Ice (his core kombo tool to buff kombo damage, and is also able to kombo from overhead F2), so that the incessant whining from losers will then actually become legit. Cheers!
top notch high level analyisis here, this fellow knows what he is saying !! :)
 

mrapchem

Noob
Damn, sorry I posted twice again. This phone is almost unusable as Johnny Cage.
You asked me why I assume you're a scrub? You think Johnny Cage is unusable and that Sub-Zero is all-powerful; that's that Brillo-Speak right there.

Johnny Cage needs some useful KBs for sure, and some tweaks to his ability moves, but the character is pretty damn decent....if you actually have fundamentals.
 

mrapchem

Noob
LOL all the butt hurt sub zero mains are coming out of the closet with this thread. I'm sorry their's a pain in your ass, but play a more fun and balanced character and you will see how more honest the game is.
"Their's"?!?!? Really??? HAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!! That's a new one right there! A stable genius this guy is!
 

seanpon

Noob
"Their's"?!?!? Really??? HAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!! That's a new one right there! A stable genius this guy is!
LOL for someone who claims to be really busy with life, you sure seem to have a lot of time analyzing other people's grammar on a forum. You do realize this site has autocorrect right? I could just choose to ignore shit while typing with my phone. Why don't you and @Endeavor go to a tournament if your so godlike playing multiple characters. You guys are pathetic as hell defending a broken ass mechanic in this game. No fighting game character needs a 50/50 vortex, if you can't understand that, you don't know how a fighting game works and your dumb as hell. Stop being a moron and defending a broken mechanic. Do something productive in your life and go to a tournament if your saying you can react to sub's 50/50 in a real game. Come on stop being a coward and go to a tournament if your so great at this game. No one will ever see your ugly face in real life bc you never leave the couch.
 

seanpon

Noob
And that explains everything about your mentality. And why you’d only think that training mode is just for combos. I play multiple fighting games across the board. I have played EVERY NRS game since MK9, Uniel and Unist, SF4 and SF5, as well as BlazBlue and DBZF. If you think the best players in ANY of those games save for MK9 cause it’s training mode was actual trash, only use training mode to practice combos and BNBs your sadly mistaken and will ALWAYS lose against ANY mid level or higher player because they will quickly figure out you don’t actually know what they are doing is fake or unsafe. It doesn’t matter if the character is busted, strong, weak, or just plain gimmicky, you’ll almost always get killed reguardless of how strong that character actually is.
I'm so impressed! So what your saying is you sit on your ass playing more video games than me? Notice this is a NRS forum and not a street fighter or BlazBlue, so those games don't matter here. If your so godlike, go to a tournament plz. You play all these games and claim to react to sub zero 50/50's? And when is that video of you reacting to all sub's mixups going to drop? I'm still waiting..........
 

mrapchem

Noob
LOL for someone who claims to be really busy with life, you sure seem to have a lot of time analyzing other people's grammar on a forum. You do realize this site has autocorrect right? I could just choose to ignore shit while typing with my phone. Why don't you and @Endeavor go to a tournament if your so godlike playing multiple characters. You guys are pathetic as hell defending a broken ass mechanic in this game. No fighting game character needs a 50/50 vortex, if you can't understand that, you don't know how a fighting game works and your dumb as hell. Stop being a moron and defending a broken mechanic. Do something productive in your life and go to a tournament if your saying you can react to sub's 50/50 in a real game. Come on stop being a coward and go to a tournament if your so great at this game. No one will ever see your ugly face in real life bc you never leave the couch.
You're one to speak of cowardice when you keep ducking a direct challenge from me.

And apparently, you can't read because I've said repeatedly that Sub-Zero should not be able to loop his 50/50s and have no problem with NRS adjusting the hit advantage of some of his normal/strings. That's the only nerf he needs.

You can't spell or use proper grammar either, so your opinion of me is invalid. Go back to school.