Why Sub Zero Should Not Be Nerfed. The GrandMaster Speaks.

[mrapchem]

Your first point is completely irrelevant. I'm always going to be fighting Sub Zero online. Even if you could react, it's still a coin flip nonetheless.
And you can't uppercut Baraka's blood lunge, or whatever it's called. He also has a move that looks very similar so you'll never see the actual move coming. That shouldn't be allowed in ranked sets. With every other command grab you have to be close. Kotal Khan has an unblockable move, but it's part of his mixup game, and you can jump over it.
I've yet to fight a Baraka that doesn't abuse that ridiculous lunge. I beat one Baraka, but that was because I kept jumping like an idiot and grabbing every time I got close. I barely won.
That's why MK11 isn't as entertaining to watch as the last two. Everybody is either exploiting these flawed moves and mechanics, or trying trying to dodge them. Then you have wakeup rolls and fatal blows that completely shut down pressure fighters. Now it's just poke fests and each player moving back and forth like they're on drugs, "spacing", and hoping someone makes a mistake. Nobody fights.
Some characters have everything and others have nothing.

My point is completely relevant: you are requesting for something that you already have. You want Sub's overhead to be reactable so it can be blocked: it already is reactable...in a mode that you've decided that you aren't going to play against Sub-Zero in. That's too bad for you.

Again, you make my point - you seriously need to lab, because if the Baraka throws out the lunge and you duck it, it whiffs, thus allowing you to uppercut afterwards. I never said anything about uppercutting the lunge itself. You could also jump backwards away from both the lunge and the overhead. Baraka has absolutely nothing that is overpowered, especially not that lunge. You should be more concerned about Baraka players that used Gutted.

Also, about the 'moving back and forth like they're on drugs', that's what fighting games are all about: positioning. You don't get to just be wherever you want to be whenever you want to be there in any good fighting game - you have to earn access to that spot, while keeping out of your opponent's range. It's all about footsies, spacing and the potential to whiff-punish and indeed waiting for the opponent to make an error. It's chess, not checkers.

This MK is not only more entertaining than MKX to watch, it is infinitely better to play because you have to work your way to your opponent, instead of being automatically granted access for free. As a matter of fact, nothing in this game is given; everything is earned, even the right to pressure an opponent on knockdown. This game is already much more well-received than MKX ever was - especially by the best fighting game players in the world. That says a lot about its longevity.

This is precisely the correct direction for Mortal Kombat to head toward in terms of its meta. People that were carried by relentless pressure, free jump-ins and pervasive mix-ups are going to need to step their game up. They will need to gain some kind of neutral game or get killed by people like myself and the thousands of other players that live for an anti-air/whiff punish/trip guard.

 

[seanpon]

My point is completely relevant: you are requesting for something that you already have. You want Sub's overhead to be reactable so it can be blocked: it already is reactable...in a mode that you've decided that you aren't going to play against Sub-Zero in. That's too bad for you.

Again, you make my point - you seriously need to lab, because if the Baraka throws out the lunge and you duck it, it whiffs, thus allowing you to uppercut afterwards. I never said anything about uppercutting the lunge itself. You could also jump backwards away from both the lunge and the overhead. Baraka has absolutely nothing that is overpowered, especially not that lunge. You should be more concerned about Baraka players that used Gutted.

Also, about the 'moving back and forth like they're on drugs', that's what fighting games are all about: positioning. You don't get to just be wherever you want to be whenever you want to be there in any good fighting game - you have to earn access to that spot, while keeping out of your opponent's range. It's all about footsies, spacing and the potential to whiff-punish and indeed waiting for the opponent to make an error. It's chess, not checkers.

This MK is not only more entertaining than MKX to watch, it is infinitely better to play because you have to work your way to your opponent, instead of being automatically granted access for free. As a matter of fact, nothing in this game is given; everything is earned, even the right to pressure an opponent on knockdown. This game is already much more well-received than MKX ever was - especially by the best fighting game players in the world. That says a lot about its longevity.

This is precisely the correct direction for Mortal Kombat to head toward in terms of its meta. People that were carried by relentless pressure, free jump-ins and pervasive mix-ups are going to need to step their game up. They will need to gain some kind of neutral game or get killed by people like myself and the thousands of other players that live for an anti-air/whiff punish/trip guard.

If sub zero's OH is reactable like you say it is, why are so many people complaining about it? Why are the only people defending it sub zero players? "They will need to gain some kind of neutral game or get killed by people like myself " LOLOLLOL You think you have neutral hahahaha. Playing a scrub character that has a 6 frame D1, best counter zoning, 13 frame slide, character with some of the easiest krushing blows. I don't know how to even have conversation with people who think there good playing a braindead character. Why did you even spend $60 dollars on this game, you could have picked up a quarter from the side of the road and just flipped it, and say "hey look, its heads, i guessed right!" Thats essentially what your doing with sub zero

 

[mrapchem]

You seem to love defending sub zero when he has more tools than most of the entire cast and on top of that a 50/50 vortex. How does that sound fun to play as, its especially annoying for people to play against. But hey, its pretty obvious why they made easy mode characters in this game like sub and Geras, its so middle aged guys can feel good playing a fighting game. If you really enjoy playing like a kid with characters that play the game for you, why don't you play something like minesweeper. That game is all guessing as well right? Why would I wan't to play a game against a scrub zero player where I have to respect a 50/50 and if I know i get hit its not my fault. Sub is basically like atrocitus from injustice 2, braindead 50/50 machine with no skill. Its amazing what people try to defend and prove in a fighting game. Instead of playing sub zero, just go flip a coin with your child and make him guess if its heads or tails each time, thats also a 50/50 too right! For someone so busy, you seem to be have a lot of free time defending the indefensible.

The fact that you cannot seem to understand what has been illuminated in this thread, saying that Sub-Zero plays Mortal Kombat for you in this game and then go to compare Sub-Zero to Atrocitus tells me everything I need to know about you: you are an absolute scrub, perhaps even a proto-scrub! I never needed to use Sub-Zero to beat you, but now I know for certain that I don't - you've already lost in your mind.

The fact is, I've fought thousands of you; people who don't know neutral, maybe know a few un-optimized combos, yet fail to understand why they can't land said combos against decent players in a game like this one. You people don't lab, don't watch good players or even play against people who mop you online; you care more about that arbitrary W/L record, which means absolutely nothing in an online setting.

But most importantly, people like you don't learn from their in-game mistakes, because you don't take accountability for your losses. If a Sub player got close enough to you to make you guess between overhead/low, you would never guess that perhaps you lost the neutral game and that being mixed is a consequence. Sub-Zero shouldn't have a vortex off a +22 on hit normal or a +10/+16 B14/B32 respectively, but even if that were taken away, you'd still find a reason to lose to him.

I was going to use Johnny Cage versus you - a character with a low-low string and no overheads at all. Someone like me doesn't need to mix you to kick your ass - I use good spacing, anti-airing and whiff-punishing. Essentially, I make you beat yourself in the neutral - then I finish you off with combos. However, since you seem content to remain free to Sub-Zero players - and likely players of a myriad of characters - I'll be happy to watch the virtual piss between your legs.

 

[mrapchem]

If sub zero's OH is reactable like you say it is, why are so many people complaining about it? Why are the only people defending it sub zero players? "They will need to gain some kind of neutral game or get killed by people like myself " LOLOLLOL You think you have neutral hahahaha. Playing a scrub character that has a 6 frame D1, best counter zoning, 13 frame slide, character with some of the easiest krushing blows. I don't know how to even have conversation with people who think there good playing a braindead character. Why did you even spend $60 dollars on this game, you could have picked up a quarter from the side of the road and just flipped it, and say "hey look, its heads, i guessed right!" Thats essentially what your doing with sub zero

People complain because they don't want to do the work of labbing a character, they don't want to accept that perhaps they lost because they aren't as good as they think they are. They also complain because complaining actually works in an NRS game - if enough people whine about a character, chances are NRS will respond by toning a character down, even if it was never necessary. This has happened across multiple titles for the past near-decade.

Sub-Zero does have a 6-frame D1...that only hits from the closest of ranges. If you aren't anywhere near him, you'd never get hit by it.
Sub-Zero does have an 11-frame slide...that is negative 20 on block. You block it, you get a full combo, whereas if Sub-Zero hits it, he only gets 14% max.
Sub-Zero does have easy KBs...just like half the cast? Plus, they only hit once a match, so...

If you really think I don't have neutral, let's run a set then. I'll even do you a favor and pick everyone I play but Sub-Zero, just to show you that you don't stand a chance, no matter what. You can pick whoever you want, Sonya, Geras, Erron, I don't care. I play Sub, Scorpion, Baraka, Johnny...and a little bit of Liu and Shao Kahn. But, I'm sure you'll still duck the fade...because that's what scrubs do.

 

[Endeavor]

I guess DJT doesn't exist anymore lmfao

He used him....and DIED then went to baraka where he made it into top 8 never picking Subzero for the rest of the tournament. But honestly he’s gonna get nerfed regardless. I really want NRS to kill the situation when he gets to loop his high low. For that one fine and if it’ll bring the character down a bit without killing him fine at this point. Make the overhead 22-24 frames, able to better be reacted to and punished. Nerf the frame advantage on S2 and give it a little more push back on hit. Nerf the frame advantage on B32 from 16 to 9. That way any character with a minimum a 7 frame jab can interrupt him from trying to loop the situation. Leave B14 the same. With over head becoming slower and the situation already being fuzzyable then and the low whiffing If try’s to delay it then it’s even more of a risk for him to try and mix up again. Problem solve. He stops being a mix machine and become easier to block while still being strong. Base case scenario.

 

[Nortnauq]

For everyone saying that they can't react to his overhead online, please go to the online settings tab and turn on, "Offline Input Delay".
Then, hit up training and practice reacting to it randomly by typing in both the low and the overhead strings. If you still can't seem block it after a few attempts then you'll know that it's not the character, it's in fact you and need more practice.
Thanks!

 

[SwiftEagle]

Seems like

For everyone saying that they can't react to his overhead online, please go to the online settings tab and turn on, "Offline Input Delay".
Then, hit up training and practice reacting to it randomly by typing in both the low and the overhead strings. If you still can't seem block it after a few attempts then you'll know that it's not the character, it's in fact you and need more practice.
Thanks!

Seems like everybody but Sub Zero players need more practice.

 

[mrapchem]

Seems like

Seems like everybody but Sub Zero players need more practice.

Nah, there's a bunch of non-Sub players that know he's fine. They simply aren't scrubs.

 

[Endeavor]

Your first point is completely irrelevant. I'm always going to be fighting Sub Zero online. Even if you could react, it's still a coin flip nonetheless.
And you can't uppercut Baraka's blood lunge, or whatever it's called. He also has a move that looks very similar so you'll never see the actual move coming. That shouldn't be allowed in ranked sets. With every other command grab you have to be close. Kotal Khan has an unblockable move, but it's part of his mixup game, and you can jump over it.
I've yet to fight a Baraka that doesn't abuse that ridiculous lunge. I beat one Baraka, but that was because I kept jumping like an idiot and grabbing every time I got close. I barely won.
That's why MK11 isn't as entertaining to watch as the last two. Everybody is either exploiting these flawed moves and mechanics, or trying trying to dodge them. Then you have wakeup rolls and fatal blows that completely shut down pressure fighters. Now it's just poke fests and each player moving back and forth like they're on drugs, "spacing", and hoping someone makes a mistake. Nobody fights.
Some characters have everything and others have nothing.

“Even if you could react it’s still a coin flip nonetheless”
Wait...WHAT?!!!

Quick someone tell me what “reaction” means again I’m old and clearly have the definition wrong.

 

[Jonni_Boy33]

this is a little bit confusing because as far as subs mix in mk11 isn't jack shit compared what sub did in mkx and as well as the rest of the cast in mkx. his low is a stagger and can be hit confirmed. but if that man sub dares to go for that overhead he is getting full combo punished. you have to play a strong defense against this type of character. but in my opinion he should not be nerfed. Erron on the other hand is a bit OD to me there isn't a damn thing that character lacks in.

 

[RM Ree]

If sub zero's OH is reactable like you say it is, why are so many people complaining about it? Why are the only people defending it sub zero players? "They will need to gain some kind of neutral game or get killed by people like myself " LOLOLLOL You think you have neutral hahahaha. Playing a scrub character that has a 6 frame D1, best counter zoning, 13 frame slide, character with some of the easiest krushing blows. I don't know how to even have conversation with people who think there good playing a braindead character. Why did you even spend $60 dollars on this game, you could have picked up a quarter from the side of the road and just flipped it, and say "hey look, its heads, i guessed right!" Thats essentially what your doing with sub zero

They’re*

Seems like

Seems like everybody but Sub Zero players need more practice.

Go figure, we know how to defend against the character we main. YoU dOn’T sAy

 

[Dankster Morgan]

He used him....and DIED then went to baraka where he made it into top 8 never picking Subzero for the rest of the tournament. But honestly he’s gonna get nerfed regardless. I really want the to kill the situation when he gets to loop his high low. For that one fine and if it’ll bring the character down a bit without killing him fine at this point. Make the overhead 22-24 frames, able to better be reacted to and punished. Nerf the frame advantage on S2 and give it a little more push back on hit. Nerf the frame advantage on B32 from 16 to 9. That way any character with a minimum a 7 frame jab can interrupt him from trying to loop the situation. Leave B14 the same. With over head becoming slower and the situation already being fuzzyable then and the low whiffing If try’s to delay it then it’s even more of a risk for him to try and mix up again. Problem solve. He stops being a mix machine and become easier to block while still being strong. Base case scenario.

They really don’t need to change the overhead though. The risk/reward for Sub-Zero’s 50/50 is perfectly fine. He has to spend a bar and is still unsafe off the overhead and will get punished probably harder than he was gonna hit you. Kill the vortex and the character is fine. As for slide, he doesn’t even get slide in the variation he can launch with the OH.

The most vocal complainers will still get fucked up by the character in the same way they are now because they don’t wanna learn. Doesn’t matter what happens to him bc they don’t wanna learn.

 

[mrapchem]

For everyone saying that they can't react to his overhead online, please go to the online settings tab and turn on, "Offline Input Delay".
Then, hit up training and practice reacting to it randomly by typing in both the low and the overhead strings. If you still can't seem block it after a few attempts then you'll know that it's not the character, it's in fact you and need more practice.
Thanks!

Oh they won't do that...they're convinced that Sub is the problem!

 

[Jonni_Boy33]

Listen, NOBODY should be nerfed! Im getting tired of NRS scene always screaming nerfs when the devs need to start the habit of buffing lower tier characters to catch up to the good ones. Sub does not need any nerfs whatsoever. If anything, i would buff his damage output a bit.

I agree with everything just not the buff on the damage input there are characters that have a hard time reaching 30% but sub with the mix is not one of them. on top of that his KB's do 30% by itself

 

[seanpon]

“Even if you could react it’s still a coin flip nonetheless”
Wait...WHAT?!!!
View attachment 14689
Quick someone tell me what “reaction” means again I’m old and clearly have the definition wrong.

weren't you supposed to make that video of yourself reacting to a PRE-SET pattern of sub zero lol. When's that video dropping. And since your reactions are so godlike in practice mode, can you also please make a video of yourself reacting to errons drop kick! I'm sure if you have no problem reacting to sub zero, you should react to erron. Bc isn't thats what practice mode is? Keep beleiving practice mode is like playing a real match!

 

[seanpon]

People complain because they don't want to do the work of labbing a character, they don't want to accept that perhaps they lost because they aren't as good as they think they are. They also complain because complaining actually works in an NRS game - if enough people whine about a character, chances are NRS will respond by toning a character down, even if it was never necessary. This has happened across multiple titles for the past near-decade.

Sub-Zero does have a 6-frame D1...that only hits from the closest of ranges. If you aren't anywhere near him, you'd never get hit by it.
Sub-Zero does have an 11-frame slide...that is negative 20 on block. You block it, you get a full combo, whereas if Sub-Zero hits it, he only gets 14% max.
Sub-Zero does have easy KBs...just like half the cast? Plus, they only hit once a match, so...

If you really think I don't have neutral, let's run a set then. I'll even do you a favor and pick everyone I play but Sub-Zero, just to show you that you don't stand a chance, no matter what. You can pick whoever you want, Sonya, Geras, Erron, I don't care. I play Sub, Scorpion, Baraka, Johnny...and a little bit of Liu and Shao Kahn. But, I'm sure you'll still duck the fade...because that's what scrubs do.

I'm pretty sure a scrub only mains and defends broken characters because without them they would be back in disability, those broken characters are like krutches for them. People in this thread are even complaining that sub zero needs buffs... LOL. So let me get this straight, you payed $60 of your own money so you could pretty much do with what you can with a coin. Instead of playing sub zero, just flip a damn coin and get excited everytime you guess right. Your literally not doing anything by opening up someone with a 50/50 vortex. Your literally just acting like a fraud thinking you "opened" someone up when the character just has stupid ass mechanics.

 

[darthbrooks]

did all the 2019ers get here with the short bus? I don’t remember me being this retarded when MKX dropped. maybe I was though, not sure.

 

[Vagrant]

We still have people claiming you can react to 19 frame overheads in the neutral game. lol.

 

[Wigy]

I would like the low to be slightly less good of a stagger.

Ex iceball being a high would be nice too.

You can argue over semantics all day. He's got the best counterzoning projectile in the game. No contest. Great pokes, good strings, great damage, slide, mix.

Being ready for pokes staggers AND the mix all at once is not a thing for anyone but the very highest level. My opinion.

He's just better than other characters.

 

[DarkSado]

Played Baraka at Summit. Rude to say he doesn’t exist, though. Shame on you.

He did use sub zero on semij

 

[SwiftEagle]

Nah, there's a bunch of non-Sub players that know he's fine. They simply aren't scrubs.

Are you calling me a scrub?

“Even if you could react it’s still a coin flip nonetheless”
Wait...WHAT?!!!
View attachment 14689
Quick someone tell me what “reaction” means again I’m old and clearly have the definition wrong.

It's a coinflip, ie 50/50s.

Oh they won't do that...they're convinced that Sub is the problem!

In fighting games, I practice by playing matches against other players. The only thing I use practice mode for is learning the bread and butter strings and combos. Claiming that using practice mode against the AI will help you against a good Sub Zero player is like saying punching the heavy bag will prepare you for an actual fight in a boxing ring.

 

[seanpon]

Are you calling me a scrub?

It's a coinflip, ie 50/50s.

In fighting games, I practice by playing matches against other players. The only thing I use practice mode for is learning the bread and butter strings and combos. Claiming that using practice mode against the AI will help you against a good Sub Zero player is like saying punching the heavy bag will prepare you for an actual fight in a boxing ring.

Thank you, finally someone here with two brain cells to rub together.

 

[Nortnauq]

Sonic literally just said Sub-Zero is trash on his stream. He has him in B tier. (out of S S- A+ A A- and then finally B) I guess he’s a pretty good player and might know what he’s talking about?

 

[seanpon]

Sonic literally just said Sub-Zero is trash on his stream. He has him in B tier. (out of S S- A+ A A- and then finally B) I guess he’s a pretty good player and might know what he’s talking about?

Players like DJT and Reo constantly say how good sub zero is as well and how you can't react to his vortex. Whats your point....

 

[Qwark28]

Why are you guys being baited by a troll account created 3 days ago?