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Why Is MK11 So Rage Inducing?

@CrimsonShadow @Tony at Home

Replicate this in MKX please.


(I know why this happens, I just generally want to know if it can be done in MKX lol)
It happens because MKX uses a traditional throw hurtbox like KI and SF.

MK11 just uses your regular hurtbox.

It's not because the properties of throw as a "mid that whiffs on neutral duck" which is the point of contention here.

And I've already proven that for everyone trying to change the subject. Like legit I can show a throw connecting with a d1 in startup frames in MKX
 

TakeAChance

TYM White Knight
He's right, this actually isn't different between MKX and MK11. That's a myth invented by people who didn't know what they were doing. Throws are quick and if they go active first they will beat your attack, just like every other normal. This was the case in MKX and hasn't changed.
Like it literally will say "KOUNTER" in the bottom of the screen when you throw someone out of a d3/d1/d2 in MKX.

That is the game telling you "You were in the startup frames of a low poke/move and the THROW hit you out of it"

But in MK11 it's suddenly a huge thing that throws "eat" moves

Here are two instances. One of you are saying throws were exactly the same.

They are not.



Yes, throws will always win if they go active first. That's a fact. They will also win if an opponents hurt box extends to them regardless of type. (high, low, mid etc)

Hence why in MK11 Kano can Vacuum throw noob from half screen.

I don't believe throws can do that in MKX.

They literally kill active start up frames on normals, as well as punish the extended hurt box no matter the distance.

I personally prefer "special throw hit boxes" myself, which is why I was so infuriated over this games throw system.

I've moved on and just made it apart of my play, but to say that they are exactly the same, don't eat mids, etc...is not exactly accurate.
 

kcd117

Noob
As someone already mentioned, I feel like it is very easy to lose without feeling that you got outplayed in this game.

Like when Liu gets in and you are constantly guessing between strike and throw into his + frames, 9 frame mids, dumb staggers into mixups... it always goes like “well, I lost bc I thought he’d throw loop me, teched it the wrong way, then thought he’d throw KB me and he did a F4 KB into 50% in the corner” or “well, I tried to avoid his pressure the only way I could, by flawless blocking his crossover jk but he KB parried me into unbreakable 60%”. Or when Jax makes an 80% comeback on you after a raw Fatal Blow. Or Sub 50/50ing you to death everywhere. Sonya 50/50 fatal blow into the losers bracket...

Overall, I feel like this is a more honest game than previous titles, but the effect it has is that it makes the outlier characters seem more bs than they would be in past games.

Another thing that makes me salty about this game is that it is mainly a ft2 and the characters that have the full “ft2boyz” kit like those I mentioned above tend to make the games hella stressfull and unpleasant, bc you are not exclusively relying on your skills to play the game, as at the moment you let your opponent play, no matter how good you are, you can always make the wrong guess.
 

ExpectFlames

Lord of embers
It happens because MKX uses a traditional throw hurtbox like KI and SF.

MK11 just uses your regular hurtbox.

It's not because the properties of throw as a "mid that whiffs on neutral duck" which is the point of contention here.

And I've already proven that for everyone trying to change the subject. Like legit I can show a throw connecting with a d1 in startup frames in MKX
Your actively ignoring what you just saw.
 

SixPathsOfHate

Make triple skulls input BDF or DF Hold F
Tried getting back into MK11 recently with no success. I guess I found my type of game after MKX and IN2. I guess I am one of the few who didnt mind the 50/50 hell scape that plagued the early half of MKX. Played all 3 variations of Shinnok with Imposter being my go to then picked up Sektor. Even when I was getting mixed I never really blamed the game and took up the idea that if I was in that situation then it was because I got hit by something I shouldnt have gotten hit by.

Inj2 was Brainiac and idc what anyone says, he was a MKX character in disguise. 50/50s for days in pseudo-vortex.

Anime fighters seemed to have taken my heart and after playing those I cant seem to go back to any NRS game because of how stiff or slow they feel. Its missing that explosiveness that MKX and sometimes INJ2 had.

Heres to hoping for a NRS game that takes inspiration from anime FGs.
Edit. DBFZ transcends the anime FG title and plays like ass.
 

ExpectFlames

Lord of embers
Tried getting back into MK11 recently with no success. I guess I found my type of game after MKX and IN2. I guess I am one of the few who didnt mind the 50/50 hell scape that plagued the early half of MKX. Played all 3 variations of Shinnok with Imposter being my go to then picked up Sektor. Even when I was getting mixed I never really blamed the game and took up the idea that if I was in that situation then it was because I got hit by something I shouldnt have gotten hit by.

Inj2 was Brainiac and idc what anyone says, he was a MKX character in disguise. 50/50s for days in pseudo-vortex.

Anime fighters seemed to have taken my heart and after playing those I cant seem to go back to any NRS game because of how stiff or slow they feel. Its missing that explosiveness that MKX and sometimes INJ2 had.

Heres to hoping for a NRS game that takes inspiration from anime FGs.
Pick up jax bro hunkerdown f2 f2 Fthrow FB f2 Fthrow 70%
 

NeonGroovyGator

Vampire mommy simp
that's usually because of the character you use doesn't have to deal with shit.
I mean, I play quite a few characters, and most of them aren't ''''top tiers'''' so
I'm not claiming to be high level or anything, losing just feels a lot more fair in this game to me than in most games
 

Gamer68

Fujin!
My problem with the game is that movelists are short and even then often have moves that feel useless. Some strings are unsafe on block for no reason, or have the same purpose as other strings making you think "Why does this even exist? What is it for?"

Example: Some specials have an insane amount of start-up AND recovery frames. I started playing the game a little more when Nightwolf came out and decided to try to learn Thin Ice Sub-Zero. One of his specials, Death Cicle-Barrage, has 30-something frames of start up and is unsafe on-block. It doesn't do a lot of damage on hit, and while it is a pretty good chip damage move on-block, remember that is unsafe. This creates a move that is very situational, which is fine on paper, but in a game that is neutral heavy and has limited movelists/variation options, getting moves like this does NOT feel good. I feel like Kung Lao is in similar situation. A lot of his strings are unsafe on block, have highs that can be ducked and punished, and/or has gaps in them. His variations suck, his teleport has a billion frames of start-up, etc, etc.

Yes, you can get results with Kung Lao and Sub-Zero. They are actually pretty good characters. That's not my point. My point is that they just don't feel good to use because NRS has decided to make them feel very limited by giving them situational moves and shitty variations. When I watch a Kung Lao player in tournament, like maybe Foxy Grampa, I noticed a lot of Kung Lao's gameplan comes down to using Amplfied Z-Hat into a throw set-up and to try to fish for the the throw KB. That, and using the same 2 maybe 3 strings over and over again because you don't really have many good options to use in terms of strings. And if you get a hit? Usually the same bnb midscreen combo, or bnb corner combo depending on where you are at on the screen.

There is not a lot of variety in this game, and a lot of options just straight-up suck. You could have a really limited character, meanwhile there are characters like Sonya, Geras, Erron Black, etc. Even characters like Liu Kang seem to be giving people a lot of trouble because of frames or some shit. That is the #1 reason why I don't play a lot and I can see how this would make people get more rage induced that other FGs. Your options are: play a limited character with a gimicky gameplan, or play a braindead character that is easier to get results with. If you are a Johnny player (just using this character as one of many examples) trying to get results, and you are constantly having to deal with characters like Geras, I can see how the game will feel almost unfair and thus rage inducing.

To be fair, this is my fairly inexperienced hot take.

TL;DR, you have characters like Johnny, Kung Lao, etc, that often feel limited (especially in pre-patch) but then you have characters like Geras and whatnot. The deference in design can be infuriating. How come one character can get useful strings, good damage, easy Krushing Blows, and a really good Fatal Blow start-up -- but another character gets a gimmicky gameplan and a movelist full of situational filler? While you can get results with the latter, they just do not feel good to use and even in times almost unfair.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Example: Some specials have an insane amount of start-up AND recovery frames. I started playing the game a little more when Nightwolf came out and decided to try to learn Thin Ice Sub-Zero. One of his specials, Death Cicle-Barrage, has 30-something frames of start up and is unsafe on-block. It doesn't do a lot of damage on hit, and while it is a pretty good chip damage move on-block, remember that is unsafe. This creates a move that is very situational, which is fine on paper, but in a game that is neutral heavy and has limited movelists/variation options, getting moves like this does NOT feel good. I feel like Kung Lao is in similar situation. A lot of his strings are unsafe on block, have highs that can be ducked and punished, and/or has gaps in them. His variations suck, his teleport has a billion frames of start-up, etc, etc.
If that move was safe or super quick it'd probably be broken. A lot of times these considerations come from balancing.

If a character has everything, and everything is useful, it's harder to balance and there's more of a chance of them being broke (see: Vanilla Erron Black and Sonya)
 

Gamer68

Fujin!
If that move was safe or super quick it'd probably be broken. A lot of times these considerations come from balancing.

If a character has everything, and everything is useful, it's harder to balance and there's more of a chance of them being broke (see: Vanilla Erron Black and Sonya)
I'm just using this as an example of what I mean by using a move that I've been using recently. I'm not saying that Subby needs a buff. I said that right after:

"Yes, you can get results with Kung Lao and Sub-Zero. They are actually pretty good characters. That's not my point. My point is that they just don't feel good to use because NRS has decided to make them feel very limited by giving them situational moves and shitty variations."

Anyway, simplifying what I mean: a lot of characters feel limited and have too many situation moves. When you play against characters that don't really deal with that, it is rage inducing.

OP asked why the game felt rage inducing, and this is just one of the things I've noticed that could make someone feel that way.
 
My biggest problem is kabals wonky fucking input timing. I've lost Sooo much because of that alone! FUUCK!
The bad inputs are a problem for every character. There's a forced delay after every move making it feel clunky. It's clearly intended to slow everybody down.
 

mastermalone

Use only logic, please
The game in general seems to follow the same patterns as any other AAA fighting game.

Top tier characters

Seemingly impossible to react to, strings/moves

Online artificial frame advantage for unsafe moves

Offline play is a different story. It plays the way you expect. As for the rage inducing factor, that is a given for any fighting game. Some players we face are just naturally gifted or, put in hard work to find tech that is hard to counter.

I've been on the end of both getting destroyed by some tech and creating of nasty setups. That's the whole point of modern fighting games. The goal is not to give your opponent a clue as to what's coming next. Like a game of chess, you don't telegraph your next move. Keep the opponent guessing.

That being said, most of this game's moves seem fair. Most, not all. I've been able to spot the gaps in Liu Kangs kicks and Jax's kick into overhead special/d1 frame trap. Doing so has leveled the playing field for me exponentially.

Before we throw our controllers against the wall and call for nerfs, we should spend more time in the lab with the AI set to "Block All" and inspect the frame data for the moves that have been killing us. Record said moves and find the gaps. I did that and found a bunch of stuff that I can use to punish those who wish to abuse the seemingly abusable.

Peace.
 
I personally hate getting hit with +50% combos when my opponent has a magic pixel. I have over half my life, i should not be 1 touch away from death.

And i hate fatal blows period.
 

ExpectFlames

Lord of embers
The game in general seems to follow the same patterns as any other AAA fighting game.

Top tier characters

Seemingly impossible to react to, strings/moves

Online artificial frame advantage for unsafe moves

Offline play is a different story. It plays the way you expect. As for the rage inducing factor, that is a given for any fighting game. Some players we face are just naturally gifted or, put in hard work to find tech that is hard to counter.

I've been on the end of both getting destroyed by some tech and creating of nasty setups. That's the whole point of modern fighting games. The goal is not to give your opponent a clue as to what's coming next. Like a game of chess, you don't telegraph your next move. Keep the opponent guessing.

That being said, most of this game's moves seem fair. Most, not all. I've been able to spot the gaps in Liu Kangs kicks and Jax's kick into overhead special/d1 frame trap. Doing so has leveled the playing field for me exponentially.

Before we throw our controllers against the wall and call for nerfs, we should spend more time in the lab with the AI set to "Block All" and inspect the frame data for the moves that have been killing us. Record said moves and find the gaps. I did that and found a bunch of stuff that I can use to punish those who wish to abuse the seemingly abusable.

Peace.
I dont think a single person in here said anything about nerf. Its okay for people to Express their displeasure about a product that you had zero input creating man. I hate lab posts. Everyone knows where the lab is, simply because you spent a bunch of time prepping for staggers doesnt mean it will matter any against @Professor Oak, you lab against and perfected counter zoning tech? @SaltShaker dont care. Post about using the lab in a forum is useless.
 

mastermalone

Use only logic, please
I dont think a single person in here said anything about nerf. Its okay for people to Express their displeasure about a product that you had zero input creating man. I hate lab posts. Everyone knows where the lab is, simply because you spent a bunch of time prepping for staggers doesnt mean it will matter any against @Professor Oak, you lab against and perfected counter zoning tech? @SaltShaker dont care. Post about using the lab in a forum is useless.
I'm sorry that I have offended you.