Thoughts on current state of tournament character selection (Adam/Aquaman)

[haketh]

Honestly theirs really not much to nerf about Aquaman because he's not that BS in this game. Just look at B12 being plus & that's about it.

 

[SunsetBlvd]

Honestly theirs really not much to nerf about Aquaman

ahh i see, so you're saying we should just remove him from the game entirely. a bold idea, but i like the way you think.

 

[LoudPack xX]

Mechanically, it seems like IGAU and I2 are very similar. That doesn't seem to be a problem to me, and it seems like people are fine with that. But I notice a pretty serious issue here. If this has been brought up before, or if it seems redundant, or if it doesn't belong here, just delete me forever while I beg for your sweet forgiveness.

If you look at other fighting games, a legacy character (like Ryu in SF, for example) is generally designed to be playable to anyone who has played him before, regardless of which game they played him in. But look at the differences in those games. Each iteration of SF is massively different. If you saw Daigo play Ryu in SF4, you're still interested to see what he might do with Ryu in SF5 because the game is totally different (in this case worse, but still different).

Personally, I greatly prefer I2 to any version of SF, and I think the decision to leave the game mechanics largely the same as IGAU is a good one. But it's a unique problem, because now you have a number of characters (Adam/Aquaman being the biggest offenders) that are very similar to their IGAU versions, and a game that is largely the same as the first one as well. This might not be a problem if these characters sucked. But they don't suck, they're the absolute top of the tier list.

So who is to blame? You can't blame the players, because they are just picking characters that can win. You can't blame the audience for the generally muted reaction (or outright boos) when another pro picks Aquaman (or whoever), because they're understandably bored of these characters after years of playing/watching them. So who do you blame? I guess ultimately it's NRS' "fault", but it's not that hard to fix, and the game outside of these few characters is (in my opinion) pretty well balanced.

So I guess the solution is sort of obvious..

TLDR: Essentially when we see a Top 8 full of Aquaman/Adam/Superman in 2017, it's too similar to the game people watched for most of the duration of IGAU. The game is largely the same (which is fine), and the (legacy) characters are basically the same (which might be fine if the game itself was different). Same game, same characters = boring. But it's an easy problem to fix, because this doesn't apply to that many characters. Unfortunately, the characters it does apply to are the strongest in the game..

Yeah this game is boring with the same characters in top 8. They need to chance something immediately!!!

 

[Marlow]

Why should Aquaman NOT go for trident rush chip? Why should Black Adam NOT fish for high damage? Why should Batman NOT go for safe pressure? These player's aren't playing to a character's strengths... they're playing into things the rest of the cast has no answer to. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

The move data in this game is laughable. That's why you see the same characters over and over again. It doesn't matter when Batman can +batarang you, Aquaman can chip you, and Black Adam can damage you in such high effectiveness. Now ask yourself, why is the frame/chip/damage from these three characters so much astronomically higher than the majority of the other cast? Normally playstyles compensate for the number differences. But when they are this high compared to the rest of the cast with almost no drawback, you're not going to see those other playstyles. You see a boring game of the same thing over and over again.

Player's won't diverge from the same things because there just is no answer to them outside of the top cast. And what's their answer? Use their broken stuff. It's a battle of broken stuff. And once in awhile, you see a mid tier character who just so happens to have a favorable match-up/move against a top tier. I think it's the same problem SFV is having right now. There isn't room for the game to grow much because the simplest things and most linear tactics are strong enough as is.

Aren't we already seeing people starting to find answers? A Scarecrow just won CEO and caused several players to stay away from the Black Adam matchup entirely. Sonic Fox pulled out Joker to beat Batman. A Green Arrow beat a Superman. People are already starting to figure out matchups, just look at the difference in play from Combo Breaker to CEO. Deadshot was supposedly a super broken character at the start, but he had almost no impact on top 16. Black Adam, Aquaman, Batman, and Superman are all really good characters, but I think the main reason they're doing good early is that they're legacy characters who's game plan hasn't changed much from IGAU, so they're easier to optimize day 1. But I think there's plenty of potential in the rest of the cast to catch up.

 

[SunsetBlvd]

Aren't we already seeing people starting to find answers? A Scarecrow just won CEO and caused several players to stay away from the Black Adam matchup entirely. Sonic Fox pulled out Joker to beat Batman. A Green Arrow beat a Superman. People are already starting to figure out matchups, just look at the difference in play from Combo Breaker to CEO. Deadshot was supposedly a super broken character at the start, but he had almost no impact on top 16. Black Adam, Aquaman, Batman, and Superman are all really good characters, but I think the main reason they're doing good early is that they're legacy characters who's game plan hasn't changed much from IGAU, so they're easier to optimize day 1. But I think there's plenty of potential in the rest of the cast to catch up.

i've been waiting 4 pages of replies for someone to say this so i could tear it apart. thank you so much.

let's begin. to start, yes, a scarecrow won ceo. but the rumors hidden deep in pro players twitter arguments prior to ceo were that scarecrow was top 10, maybe top 5. his success was not a surprise to these people. deadshot was never a super broken character to anyone that understands fighting games, or alternatively, anyone willing to move against the tide of public opinion. turns out there were very few of us, and we were right. joker was used in literally 1 match, specifically to exploit a batman weakness.

the vast majority of the top 8 was adam/aquaman, and if you have any knowledge of human interest, you would see that the crowd was bored as fuck. this is the point of my post. i am so ready for the counter argument you posted because it's a fantasy and it's very easy to predict. pointing out the 3 or 4 exceptions to a 90% legacy character top 8 is absolutely pointless, because while you list all the silly reasons that your argument "makes sense", the crowd is yawning and getting up, or closing twitch on their browser.

now let's move on to green arrow. i'm so happy you brought him up, because i'm going to end this argument right now-

this thread is about adam/aquaman for a reason. i didn't put superman or batman in there. green arrow was used specifically to beat superman and, to everyone's surprise, it was very effective. this is interesting. everyone was super excited.. for a second.. until theo picked..

aquaman. theo won with aquaman. then illusion picked.........

black adam. aquaman vs. black adam again. the crowd yawns and shifts in their seat.

ed boon lights a match, places it under a $100 dollar bill, and lifts the $100 up to a cigar, hand rolled in cuba by a starving orphan. he inhales.

 

[Crusty]

I won't lie though, but I'm more than glad Takeda got some great changes over MKX's lifespan. That character was so fun and unique to play as.

As for how patches go, the biggest problem with MKX's patches were that they would over-nerf the best characters while over-buffing the other characters. Honestly, they should have done one character change at a time to see how it affected the meta.

Right now in my opinion, all Black Adam would need is a damage nerf. They should make his trait or his new string scale more and then from there, watch how it affects the character.

Just because a character hasn't placed yet doesn't mean you buff the character so he can place. This was the problem with Flash and Takeda's balancing.

 

[OFC Salty Santa]

Naw guys its too soooooooooooooon to realize that this game has the exact same problems as the 3 fighting games NRS released before it

 

[navaroNe]

Aren't we already seeing people starting to find answers? A Scarecrow just won CEO and caused several players to stay away from the Black Adam matchup entirely. Sonic Fox pulled out Joker to beat Batman. A Green Arrow beat a Superman. People are already starting to figure out matchups, just look at the difference in play from Combo Breaker to CEO. Deadshot was supposedly a super broken character at the start, but he had almost no impact on top 16. Black Adam, Aquaman, Batman, and Superman are all really good characters, but I think the main reason they're doing good early is that they're legacy characters who's game plan hasn't changed much from IGAU, so they're easier to optimize day 1. But I think there's plenty of potential in the rest of the cast to catch up.

IMO the legacy argument is kind of a weak one. Pretty sure black adam and aquaman would still Be dominating even if they weren't legacy cause they're super easy to pick up and have all the tools they need to handle pretty much any matchup.

 

[Juggs]

The best players are using the best characters. It's not like some randoms are winning because they're using top tier. I do believe the top 7 or so are much better than the rest, but it's still early.

Main point, buff Supergirl.

 

[SunsetBlvd]

The best players are using the best characters. It's not like some randoms are winning because they're using top tier. I do believe the top 7 or so are much better than the rest, but it's still early.

Main point, buff Supergirl.

patience is usually a good thing. unfortunately i'm not sure many of the pros are with you on this. people are starting to grumble. the top 7 isn't really the problem imo, it's the top 2.

 

[Marlow]

IMO the legacy argument is kind of a weak one. Pretty sure black adam and aquaman would still Be dominating even if they weren't legacy cause they're super easy to pick up and have all the tools they need to handle pretty much any matchup.

I think Black Adam and Aquaman are both really strong characters. I just don't think it's a problem that needs to be addressed with nerfs at this point. We literally just saw a Scarecrow take down both Aquaman and Black Adam. Not a lot of people saw that coming, even just a few weeks ago. As people start to optimize characters and learn matchups, and learn better ways to deal with characters like Black Adam and Aquaman, who knows what characters could pop up into top 8? I think it's worth giving people that chance instead of calling for instant changes.

 

[Rathalos]

patience is usually a good thing. unfortunately i'm not sure many of the pros are with you on this. people are starting to grumble. the top 7 isn't really the problem imo, it's the top 2.

With the amount of money on the line for this crap, I don't think they should touch anyones character until it's all over. Players are spending 10 hours a day practicing to win this money, it's poor form to change how the game is played mid competition.

NRS made this bed, they knew what they were doing when they let the legacy character keep their shit and in some cases made it better. Why they did what they did, I don't know, but it is what it is.

 

[kcd117]

Atrocitus isn't a beast due to his 50/50, and it is pseudo reactable, the kinda thing you can only do consistently in training mode but still get hit by it sometimes in a actual match. What makes him so good is that he can keep most characters from playing the game everytime dex is out.

 

[Marlow]

There were 11 matches played at CEO top 8. 9 out of the 11 featured either a Black Adam, or an Aquaman. That's only 81%, but I get it, it's high. But a lot of that is due to top players using those characters and playing more matches due to winning. Only 4 of the top 8 players used Black Adam or Aquaman. Only 3 of the 11 matches were a Black Adam vs Aquaman matches. This is comparable to other games. Look at CEO 2016 for SFV, a new game which at the time had already been out longer than INJ2 has been going into CEO. 10/11 matches had either a Nash or a Ryu (legacy character). Again, to me this just doesn't seem like a big concern right now.

 

[kcd117]

Honestly theirs really not much to nerf about Aquaman because he's not that BS in this game. Just look at B12 being plus & that's about it.

b123 being plus paired with a 6 frames d1 and huge chip dmg specials makes no sense. Plus he does too much dmg for an auto footsie character. make b1 string arround -5 and scale his dmg and he would be fine imo.

 

[Zionix]

b123 being plus paired with a 6 frames d1 and huge chip dmg specials makes no sense. Plus he does too much dmg for an auto footsie character. make b1 string arround -5 and scale his dmg and he would be fine imo.

You missed out the meter build.

 

[kcd117]

You missed out the meter build.

That too, and maybe his d2 could use a slight horizontal hitbox reduction, I'm tired of seeing people d2x special after mb trident rush and it beats almost everything.

 

[Zionix]

That too, and maybe his d2 could use a slight horizontal hitbox reduction, I'm tired of seeing people d2x special after mb trident rush and it beats almost everything.

no d2 into special is fine, its not braindead at all.

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

please please please do not compare I2 to SF. i am a refugee from that game and while the wounds have healed, the scars remain. there are many more problems in that game. if you eliminated adam/aquaman from I2 right this second, this game would actually be relatively balanced.

did you watch ceo? did you see green arrow shit on superman? did you know that green arrow can shit on superman? doubtful.

but then theo (superman) switched to... aquaman. then he beat green arrow. who then switched to... black adam.

You sadly just proved my point. So the only time you will see switch-up from the norm is when there's a favorable match-up. As long as somebody picks the same top characters, the best counter is to also pick one. Sonic Fox picked Joker, who actually doesn't have too bad a match-up against Batman. Did you see him use Joker again? No.

 

[Igniz13]

if the idea of conserving meter to push block atro trait pressure sounds foreign or "dumb" to you, then you just suck. no other way to say it.

again, all you're really saying here is "i suck at this game". i want you to realize this, so i'll explain: yes, if you literally push block instantly every hit and he spends literally no trait himself to pressure you (aka you suck at push blocking), then maybe it takes 3 times. but the fact that you think this scenario is realistic is amusing to me.

to see someone so willing and eager to loudly expose how little they know about the game is enjoyable to watch. please continue.

There isn't some magical meter tree you can just get meter from, it has to come from somewhere, you have to build it yourself or take damage and get it that way.

The suggestion of push blocking the cat is idiotic on so many levels it's hard to encapsulate them all. Your forced to lose a meter war because he pressed the "my turn" button. It can cripple your game plan and gives him a multitude of ridiculous advantages.

Not to say it's insurmountable, but it's power is ridiculous for a trait. If anything, he's too trait loaded though. It would make more sense if it worked more like gl's trait and it buffed his options and his options were expanded.

 

[Zoidberg747]

There isn't some magical meter tree you can just get meter from, it has to come from somewhere, you have to build it yourself or take damage and get it that way.

The suggestion of push blocking the cat is idiotic on so many levels it's hard to encapsulate them all. Your forced to lose a meter war because he pressed the "my turn" button. It can cripple your game plan and gives him a multitude of ridiculous advantages.

Not to say it's insurmountable, but it's power is ridiculous for a trait. If anything, he's too trait loaded though. It would make more sense if it worked more like gl's trait and it buffed his options and his options were expanded.

If you know how to fuzzy his f223 mixups then you shouldn't need pushblock. His chip isn't that good.

Pushblocking the cat is a great tactic that severely limits him, but there are of course ways around that.

That dude is a huge Atro downplayer though. Even with f223 mixups being less effective and pushblocking, he has a ton of utility with trait and really great conversions off of practically any hit.

 

[SunsetBlvd]

Players are spending 10 hours a day practicing to win this money, it's poor form to change how the game is played mid competition.

who cares? boo hoo. if the options are
a) evo top 8 full of adam/aqua
b) hurting some players feelings

uhh.. lol

i feel like i'm saying this over and over- this is not a debate. people are not enjoying 81% adam/aqua top 8's. period. i personally won't sit through a 3 hour evo top 8 of all adam/aqua and i am most definitely not alone. evo is perhaps the biggest tournament of the year. that's not good. people tuning out en masse is 100x worse than hurting a few players feelings. why so sensitive?

 

[Lt. Boxy Angelman]

As long as this year's EVO finals aren't as dull as IG1's first, it'll count as a win.

It really is upsetting that there are so many unique character designs in this game that don't stack up for shit in effectiveness compared to the legacy brass.

 

[wsj515]

i've been waiting 4 pages of replies for someone to say this so i could tear it apart. thank you so much.

let's begin. to start, yes, a scarecrow won ceo. but the rumors hidden deep in pro players twitter arguments prior to ceo were that scarecrow was top 10, maybe top 5. his success was not a surprise to these people. deadshot was never a super broken character to anyone that understands fighting games, or alternatively, anyone willing to move against the tide of public opinion. turns out there were very few of us, and we were right. joker was used in literally 1 match, specifically to exploit a batman weakness.

the vast majority of the top 8 was adam/aquaman, and if you have any knowledge of human interest, you would see that the crowd was bored as fuck. this is the point of my post. i am so ready for the counter argument you posted because it's a fantasy and it's very easy to predict. pointing out the 3 or 4 exceptions to a 90% legacy character top 8 is absolutely pointless, because while you list all the silly reasons that your argument "makes sense", the crowd is yawning and getting up, or closing twitch on their browser.

now let's move on to green arrow. i'm so happy you brought him up, because i'm going to end this argument right now-

this thread is about adam/aquaman for a reason. i didn't put superman or batman in there. green arrow was used specifically to beat superman and, to everyone's surprise, it was very effective. this is interesting. everyone was super excited.. for a second.. until theo picked..

aquaman. theo won with aquaman. then illusion picked.........

black adam. aquaman vs. black adam again. the crowd yawns and shifts in their seat.

ed boon lights a match, places it under a $100 dollar bill, and lifts the $100 up to a cigar, hand rolled in cuba by a starving orphan. he inhales.

You clearly think very highly of yourself and your argument, and yet at the same time you think you think you smoke a cigar by inhaling...

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Just because a character hasn't placed yet doesn't mean you buff the character so he can place. This was the problem with Flash and Takeda's balancing.

Actually Takeda placed early, didn't place again, and then was buffed beyond what people hoped for.

Godforbid a couple of great players should be able to make Top 8 with him, although he didn't win anything.

But you can't use the extent of buffs to somehow say a character didn't need help at all. If Swamp Thing is buffed till he's broken tomorrow, you can't blame his community for being given more buffs than they asked for.

This applies to nerfs as well; just because a character was possibly over-nerfed doesn't mean the idea of toning them down was wrong, etc.