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Thoughts on current state of tournament character selection (Adam/Aquaman)

Crusty

Retired forever; don’t ask for games.
Actually Takeda placed early, didn't place again, and then was buffed beyond what people hoped for.

Godforbid a couple of great players should be able to make Top 8 with him, although he didn't win anything.

But you can't use the extent of buffs to somehow say a character didn't need help at all. If Swamp Thing is buffed till he's broken tomorrow, you can't blame his community for being given more buffs than they asked for.

This applies to nerfs as well; just because a character was possibly over-nerfed doesn't mean the idea of toning them down was wrong, etc.
My point was,although not obvious about it, in the past the characters weren't even getting fully explored prior to getting buffed.

That's the one thing this game is doing that the previous games have not. They're letting the game live.
 

SwagMountains

Yes we Kahn
I must live in some sort of ohio based skill black hole. Everybody else has a gigantic pool of top level players who always space zoning accordingly, do frame perfect punishes, and never drop combos.
shouts out to the midBEST. Real tho htmu if you're a columbus local
 

JLU51306

Bzzzt *Paging Doctor Fate*
You can all say "let's wait and see", "other characters are making top 8" etc., but in absolutely no way should that excuse Black Adam landing 60% combos easy, or Aquaman and Batman literally having every possible tool while everyone else just gets 1, maybe 2 in their base kit. These things are bad for balance, obviously. We can wait and see all year, but these facts aren't going to change.
 

alkipot

Purse first, ass last.
I'm gonna start calling Supergirl Supermattress cuz people sleep on her so much, or downplay just how good she is due to "muh damage". Let's just ignore the fact that she'll easily land that "low damage" on you over and over again til you're dead.

When you are a threat from anywhere on screen combined with solid mixups and mobility, I have a hard time believing you're a bad character.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I'm gonna start calling Supergirl Supermattress cuz people sleep on her so much, or downplay just how good she is due to "muh damage". Let's just ignore the fact that she'll easily land that "low damage" on you over and over again til you're dead.

When you are a threat from anywhere on screen combined with solid mixups and mobility, I have a hard time believing you're a bad character.
I mean Joker has hitscan zoning, an unblockable crowbar, hard-to-blockable teeth setups, and a great jump-in. He can even increase his speed so he's faster than the opponent. He must be broke, right? :DOGE

(If he hits you over and over again, you'll die, too!)


Any character sounds amazing when you only list their good parts, and not the issues they have vs. other characters. This is part of why balancing is hard.
 
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SunsetBlvd

Proven Nappa GOD, 100% VERIFIED Best Nappa NA
you think you smoke a cigar by inhaling...
unfortunately for this young man, this quote is the definition of "thinking highly of yourself" and assuming you're right. i've been smoking cuban montecristo's from my local smoke shop since i was 18. my go-to daily cigars are generally arturo fuente.

if you read carefully, you'd notice i didn't say you smoke cigars by inhaling. i said ed boon smokes cigars by inhaling.

i am an absolute asshole and an elitist, but my arguments are well thought out and essentially bulletproof. it's frustrating for many.
 

SunsetBlvd

Proven Nappa GOD, 100% VERIFIED Best Nappa NA
Even with f223 mixups being less effective and pushblocking, he has a ton of utility with trait and really great conversions off of practically any hit.
"ton of utility" and "great conversions" are cute phrases. so what? yes if atro hits you ever with trait out, you're going for a ride and you fucked up. but the days of atro ever connecting when he has trait out are numbered.

utility? that's just a word. he has a shield and he can make his non-mixups safe. 20 frames is reactable, period. a "50/50" that's dependent on a 20 frame low is not a 50/50. there's simply no other way to say it. if you lose to atro, you either aren't aware of this, or you aren't able to react. that's on you.

downplaying is a dopey word, you shouldn't use it. the whole point of downplaying is to avoid nerfs. well nerf atro, delete atro, i don't care. i don't care and it won't matter, because he's nowhere near as good as people think.
 

D0CT0R

Almighty Neptune
point out the actual hypocrisy, and let's get started
You said he thought too highly of himself and that he assumes he is right, yet you straight up say in your post that you are "an elitist" and imply that your arguments are never wrong.
 

D0CT0R

Almighty Neptune
unfortunately you're not providing actual examples of where my arguments are wrong. brilliant? of course. cruel? possibly. but wrong? ahh, not so easy to prove.
I never said you're argument was wrong, I completely agree that Aquaman and Black Adam need adjustments. What I was getting at is that you critized someone for thinking highly of themselves when you admit to doing the same.
 

alkipot

Purse first, ass last.
I mean Joker has hitscan zoning, an unblockable crowbar, hard-to-blockable teeth setups, and a great jump-in. He can even increase his speed so he's faster than the opponent. He must be broke, right? :DOGE

(If he hits you over and over again, you'll die, too!)


Any character sounds amazing when you only list their good parts, and not the issues they have vs. other characters. This is part of why balancing is hard.
Lol, what a weak comparison. I truly wish Joker was at Supergirl's level. I guess my post came off to you as Supergirl is top 5 (I wasn't implying it, and she isn't, but holy hell the downplay on how good she is is adorable), I was simply saying she's much better than the forums claim.

I know you're all defence force about anything you like in this game, so I won't bother going into how wrong you are and just agree. You're totally right, bro. Supergirl is just all around awful. Unviable. Nothing good about her. Yep.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Lol, what a weak comparison. I truly wish Joker was at Supergirl's level. I guess my post came off to you as Supergirl is top 5 (I wasn't implying it, and she isn't, but holy hell the downplay on how good she is is adorable), I was simply saying she's much better than the forums claim.

I know you're all defence force about anything you like in this game, so I won't bother going into how wrong you are and just agree. You're totally right, bro. Supergirl is just all around awful. Unviable. Nothing good about her. Yep.
I wasn't at all saying that they're of the same level -- Joker was an example picked at random.

The point was that describing any character's strengths, without also listing the things that cause them to struggle against other characters, will make them sound much better than they are.
 

alkipot

Purse first, ass last.
I did mention "low damage", but what else does Supergirl struggle with? What major flaws does she have that aren't over exaggerated? Maybe safety on a string or two? Cuz it sure ain't a struggle landing attacks consistently from literally anywhere on the screen. Fighting her is a mind game for the entire match, I just don't see how that's bad.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I did mention "low damage", but what else does Supergirl struggle with? What major flaws does she have that aren't over exaggerated? Maybe safety on a string or two? Cuz it sure ain't a struggle landing attacks consistently from literally anywhere on the screen. Fighting her is a mind game for the entire match, I just don't see how that's bad.
Lol "a string or two". Try "has no safe mid-hitting strings".
 

kcd117

Noob
"ton of utility" and "great conversions" are cute phrases. so what? yes if atro hits you ever with trait out, you're going for a ride and you fucked up. but the days of atro ever connecting when he has trait out are numbered.

utility? that's just a word. he has a shield and he can make his non-mixups safe. 20 frames is reactable, period. a "50/50" that's dependent on a 20 frame low is not a 50/50. there's simply no other way to say it. if you lose to atro, you either aren't aware of this, or you aren't able to react. that's on you.

downplaying is a dopey word, you shouldn't use it. the whole point of downplaying is to avoid nerfs. well nerf atro, delete atro, i don't care. i don't care and it won't matter, because he's nowhere near as good as people think.
Atrocitus is not about braindead 50/50 when dex is out. If you play atro and rely on traited 50/50 you are doing it wrong. With proper trait management and use of his strong normals and pressure tools he can be a beast. Just like batman's trait, dex provides him not only safety for his mixups but a really oppressive pressure and a very solid defense. His 50/50 are just an extra, and it is pseudo reactable. I know that probably 90% of tym can react to it consistently in training mode, but we'll still see a lot of people getting hit by it in tournament bc it is not like training mode dude.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
"ton of utility" and "great conversions" are cute phrases. so what? yes if atro hits you ever with trait out, you're going for a ride and you fucked up. but the days of atro ever connecting when he has trait out are numbered.

utility? that's just a word. he has a shield and he can make his non-mixups safe. 20 frames is reactable, period. a "50/50" that's dependent on a 20 frame low is not a 50/50. there's simply no other way to say it. if you lose to atro, you either aren't aware of this, or you aren't able to react. that's on you.

downplaying is a dopey word, you shouldn't use it. the whole point of downplaying is to avoid nerfs. well nerf atro, delete atro, i don't care. i don't care and it won't matter, because he's nowhere near as good as people think.
No one will ever be able to react to puddle every single time. F22 and f223 puddle will always be a legitimate 50/50. I guarantee you wouldn't be able to block it 5/10 times in a real match, much less 10/10.

He has a shield that essentially acts as one hit of armor. You can use it to get in on projectile characters, you can use it to get an essentially free jump in, and you can use it to be able to stuff most wakeups. You also basically can never jump on him with Dex out as doing so will get you combo'd. Very few traits in the game have that much utility, and the ones that do are on characters that are also top tier.

Great conversions is not limited to Dex being out. He can convert off of any d1, d2, etc. If you really think no one is ever going to get hit by a d1 or d2 then that is pretty ridiculous. Sure canceling straight into puddle can be a risk if they block it but there are a ton of situations where you can counterpoke or get a d1/d2 as a punish. He also has some of the best AA's in the game.

And none of that is even considering the fact that he can take well over half your bar life bar in the corner or near bounce interactables. Or the fact that he can combo off of throws with Dex out. Or how with proper defense and setup he will win close games almost every time with blood drain etc etc.

The reason people say he isn't as good is because a lot of Atro players (me included) relied solely on the trait 50/50s. Once those options were figured out a lot of people (including me) gave up. In reality though trait has way better uses then firing random shots. And he has a lot more going for him than the puddle mixups.
 

Meep8345

Noob
"ton of utility" and "great conversions" are cute phrases. so what? yes if atro hits you ever with trait out, you're going for a ride and you fucked up. but the days of atro ever connecting when he has trait out are numbered.

utility? that's just a word. he has a shield and he can make his non-mixups safe. 20 frames is reactable, period. a "50/50" that's dependent on a 20 frame low is not a 50/50. there's simply no other way to say it. if you lose to atro, you either aren't aware of this, or you aren't able to react. that's on you.

downplaying is a dopey word, you shouldn't use it. the whole point of downplaying is to avoid nerfs. well nerf atro, delete atro, i don't care. i don't care and it won't matter, because he's nowhere near as good as people think.
You do realize you have a -4 on block special with PUSHBACK that does DOT and crazy DOT combos in the corner and even mid-screen too and really good neutral to me because of how far his normals reach. This character can even combo off his throw in the corner with trait up and has restands. He can be played a lot better if people just don't go for yolo 50/50's all day. He's a lot like kotal everyone just wanted to play him potato and not think and yolo 50/50 when he could actually play pretty safe and really condition you.
 

SunsetBlvd

Proven Nappa GOD, 100% VERIFIED Best Nappa NA
The point was that describing any character's strengths, without also listing the things that cause them to struggle against other characters, will make them sound much better than they are.
so you mean we should have some sense accountability when talking about the relative strength of characters? are you completely insane? that would require honesty and introspection, as well as understanding and patience. i've seen those words before in books but i'm unclear of their meaning.
 
Mechanically, it seems like IGAU and I2 are very similar. That doesn't seem to be a problem to me, and it seems like people are fine with that. But I notice a pretty serious issue here. If this has been brought up before, or if it seems redundant, or if it doesn't belong here, just delete me forever while I beg for your sweet forgiveness.

If you look at other fighting games, a legacy character (like Ryu in SF, for example) is generally designed to be playable to anyone who has played him before, regardless of which game they played him in. But look at the differences in those games. Each iteration of SF is massively different. If you saw Daigo play Ryu in SF4, you're still interested to see what he might do with Ryu in SF5 because the game is totally different (in this case worse, but still different).

Personally, I greatly prefer I2 to any version of SF, and I think the decision to leave the game mechanics largely the same as IGAU is a good one. But it's a unique problem, because now you have a number of characters (Adam/Aquaman being the biggest offenders) that are very similar to their IGAU versions, and a game that is largely the same as the first one as well. This might not be a problem if these characters sucked. But they don't suck, they're the absolute top of the tier list.

So who is to blame? You can't blame the players, because they are just picking characters that can win. You can't blame the audience for the generally muted reaction (or outright boos) when another pro picks Aquaman (or whoever), because they're understandably bored of these characters after years of playing/watching them. So who do you blame? I guess ultimately it's NRS' "fault", but it's not that hard to fix, and the game outside of these few characters is (in my opinion) pretty well balanced.

So I guess the solution is sort of obvious..

TLDR: Essentially when we see a Top 8 full of Aquaman/Adam/Superman in 2017, it's too similar to the game people watched for most of the duration of IGAU. The game is largely the same (which is fine), and the (legacy) characters are basically the same (which might be fine if the game itself was different). Same game, same characters = boring. But it's an easy problem to fix, because this doesn't apply to that many characters. Unfortunately, the characters it does apply to are the strongest in the game..
nerfing now would be mere tier shifting with the same result just with other chars. we have seen scarecrow breaking through and should let it play out further.
 

SunsetBlvd

Proven Nappa GOD, 100% VERIFIED Best Nappa NA
nerfing now would be mere tier shifting with the same result just with other chars. we have seen scarecrow breaking through and should let it play out further.
that is absolutely not the case, and it's pretty obvious to most of us at this point.