Thoughts on current state of tournament character selection (Adam/Aquaman)

[Zoidberg747]

You aren't looking at the big picture at all. The general changes are sweeping changes to re-evaluate the current risk/reward problems with zoning. Its far to rewarding to sit back and hit projectiles while the person at a deficit is getting very little in return.

Using D2 as a footsie tool is a big problem. It negates airborne options and grounded ones. Buffering it into a special that is either safe or provides another offensive option, probably isn't the best thing for the game. More than happy to make it just a high but people would probably moan regardless.

People keep saying this but it's not true. There's a reason zoning characters aren't really winning much right now, because with patience it isn't really an issue. And you still haven't told me why characters like Firestorm, Cold, Fate, and Joker should be screwed just because some of the top tiers have too good zoning tools. That's why you focus on the top tiers and don't make sweeping changes.

Why is using d2 as a footsie tool bad? It's just a footsie option. Why nerf D2s when that is one of the biggest reasons mid tier characters can compete. If you took Joker's d2 cancels away his footsies would take a huge hit. Same with Cold and other mid tiers. It makes no sense.

I mean to each his or her own but your changes would just make the tier imbalance way worse imo.

 

[Rathalos]

I think the game has some serious issues with the differences between new characters and legacy characters.

That said, I don't want them to touch the game until after their NRS capcom cup thingy is done.

Even if I think the game will suffer for it, I think knee jerk changes will hurt the game even more, and it would be nice to see NRS being able to control themselves for once.

 

[navaroNe]

I feel like this would destroy Swamp Thing, because his down 1 tick has a gap that you can poke through.

Superman's f23 leads into 37% midscreen with trait and a bar and 39% in the corner for a bar. And the divebomb conversion after it does 93 damage, or 151 if you want to spend a bar, bringing you up to 50% for two bars.

Black Adams only full screen launcher is black magic, which is -28 and gets you a whole 20% for a bar and trait. I hate the top tiers as much as you do, but don't spread misinformation.

Well I would say his mb dive kick is a full screen launcher that leads to ridiculous damage and is also plus on block no?

 

[Zionix]

People keep saying this but it's not true. There's a reason zoning characters aren't really winning much right now, because with patience it isn't really an issue. And you still haven't told me why characters like Firestorm, Cold, Fate, and Joker should be screwed just because some of the top tiers have too good zoning tools. That's why you focus on the top tiers and don't make sweeping changes.

Why is using d2 as a footsie tool bad? It's just a footsie option. Why nerf D2s when that is one of the biggest reasons mid tier characters can compete. If you took Joker's d2 cancels away his footsies would take a huge hit. Same with Cold and other mid tiers. It makes no sense.

I mean to each his or her own but your changes would just make the tier imbalance way worse imo.

Your argument assumes that top tiers aren't being adjusted as well the universal changes.

Ultimately if what you say is true and the only way to be viable at all for 50% of the cast is to abuse d2 into special on block then there is a problem somewhere along the line.

 

[kcd117]

Superman hits 49% in the corner for a bar and has 50/50s in the corner into 40% + for a bar, and otgs that only scale after big combos, he hits you with mb f3 into f3 and you are gonna eat a ton of dmg from the otg, 50% was an exageration, but he still does like 45% lol.

Black adam's divekick travels like 7/8 of the screen, can lead to 45%+ dmg and is plus on block.

I don't even hate the top tiers, I just think they don't really need to be this dumb to be good.

 

[Nexallus]

I think the game has some serious issues with the differences between new characters and legacy characters.

That said, I don't want them to touch the game until after their NRS capcom cup thingy is done.

Even if I think the game will suffer for it, I think knee jerk changes will hurt the game even more, and it would be nice to see NRS being able to control themselves for once.

I mean scaling some of Black Adam's damage couldn't possibly hurt could it?

 

[RNLDRGN]

please for the love of all that is holy remember this post. when everything i said will happen actually happens (and it will happen soon), i can then feel like the true champion that i am and make the faces in that gif irl while i watch a replay of madzin geting 3-0 by sonic. also instead of looking up gifs of an overrated basketball player, you should be in the lab working on what i just told you cuz if you read my post and didn't understand why that cripples atro, you got some work to do.

I never said he was unbeatable or the best. I'm saying the downplaying on this site is laughable. Every. Single Game. Never fails.

 

[kcd117]

I mean scaling some of Black Adam's damage couldn't possibly hurt could it?

The only things I would do rn is scaling Black adam's dmg to arround 35% for a bar and making batman's ex batarangs +5 on block instead of +25. They could even say that's just bug fixing and I would believe it lol.
Further changes need more time.

 

[Two First Names]

Well I would say his mb dive kick is a full screen launcher that leads to ridiculous damage and is also plus on block no?

It doesn't go full screen, plus from that far you can just jump back on reaction to avoid the plus frames.

 

[kcd117]

It doesn't go full screen, plus from that far you can just jump back on reaction to avoid the plus frames.

7/8 of the screen is basically fullscreen, plus the risk/reward is dumb even if you jump back, if it lands he hits 45% combos, if you block he is plus, and if it whiffs the neutral is reset.

 

[trufenix]

I must live in some sort of ohio based skill black hole. Everybody else has a gigantic pool of top level players who always space zoning accordingly, do frame perfect punishes, and never drop combos.

 

[SunsetBlvd]

I don't want them to touch the game until after their NRS capcom cup thingy is done.

i don't know when the "nrs final" (whatever it's called) is, but the cpt final was almost a year after sfv released. if you're implying that nrs shouldn't make any changes for the next year, i bet that literally no one on this forum will agree with you. if you're talking about evo, pro players are now starting to tweet that changes might even be necessary before then. i agree.

 

[SunsetBlvd]

I'm saying the downplaying on this site is laughable. Every. Single Game. Never fails.

i'm going to try to make this very clear for this young man right here: i do not like atro anymore and i'm not downplaying him. i don't give a shit, nerf him until he's an embarrassment. i know that cat is very spooky but if you don't have 1 bar to push block ready for his trait vs. every single atro that you fight, then you need to pay better attention to these tournaments you claim to be watching.

you're so conditioned to think people are defending their character that it's actually interesting for me to observe. fascinating. tell me more.

 

[SunsetBlvd]

Your argument assumes that top tiers aren't being adjusted as well the universal changes.

Ultimately if what you say is true and the only way to be viable at all for 50% of the cast is to abuse d2 into special on block then there is a problem somewhere along the line.

i like the discussion, but i think i've had enough fantasy for now. regardless of anything you say, nrs is never in a million years going to take away wakeup invincible reversals or these d2 changes you're proposing. some of your suggestions were good. those two weren't, simply because they're 100% unrealistic.

 

[D_Matt_Ma]

Why should Aquaman NOT go for trident rush chip? Why should Black Adam NOT fish for high damage? Why should Batman NOT go for safe pressure? These player's aren't playing to a character's strengths... they're playing into things the rest of the cast has no answer to. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

The move data in this game is laughable. That's why you see the same characters over and over again. It doesn't matter when Batman can +batarang you, Aquaman can chip you, and Black Adam can damage you in such high effectiveness. Now ask yourself, why is the frame/chip/damage from these three characters so much astronomically higher than the majority of the other cast? Normally playstyles compensate for the number differences. But when they are this high compared to the rest of the cast with almost no drawback, you're not going to see those other playstyles. You see a boring game of the same thing over and over again.

Player's won't diverge from the same things because there just is no answer to them outside of the top cast. And what's their answer? Use their broken stuff. It's a battle of broken stuff. And once in awhile, you see a mid tier character who just so happens to have a favorable match-up/move against a top tier. I think it's the same problem SFV is having right now. There isn't room for the game to grow much because the simplest things and most linear tactics are strong enough as is.

 

[SunsetBlvd]

I think it's the same problem SFV is having right now

please please please do not compare I2 to SF. i am a refugee from that game and while the wounds have healed, the scars remain. there are many more problems in that game. if you eliminated adam/aquaman from I2 right this second, this game would actually be relatively balanced.

did you watch ceo? did you see green arrow shit on superman? did you know that green arrow can shit on superman? doubtful.

but then theo (superman) switched to... aquaman. then he beat green arrow. who then switched to... black adam.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

atro is not top 4

i actually agree with this. people should train themselves to block to low puddle on reaction. its a 20 frame low and if you practice defending against the mixup long enough you should be able to train yourself to react to it. i dont think hes very scary without the cat either. i think hes more of a top 10 character than a top 5 character. hes just one of the simplest and easiest characters in the game right now and hes a pretty good one so he is really effective in the early stages of the game, similar to how wesker was really strong during the first year of umvc3

 

[SunsetBlvd]

i actually agree with this.

you have seen the light. 20 frames is 100% reactable. when people realize that this 20 frame reactable low is the entirety of his "guessing game", and that push block essentially eliminates his trait, he will fall dramatically in the tiers.

but you are being modest. i am unafraid. i have loudly and bravely proclaimed him not even top 10. this will be common knowledge after evo, and i will be treated as a prophet, a sage.

 

[Igniz13]

i'm going to try to make this very clear for this young man right here: i do not like atro anymore and i'm not downplaying him. i don't give a shit, nerf him until he's an embarrassment. i know that cat is very spooky but if you don't have 1 bar to push block ready for his trait vs. every single atro that you fight, then you need to pay better attention to these tournaments you claim to be watching.

you're so conditioned to think people are defending their character that it's actually interesting for me to observe. fascinating. tell me more.

You need to pushblock 3 times for cat to go away. When cat is out, meter building is risky. You can't just have meter to pushblock, this statement is dumb on so many levels.

 

[RM Jonnitti]

you have seen the light. 20 frames is 100% reactable. when people realize that this 20 frame reactable low is the entirety of his "guessing game", and that push block essentially eliminates his trait, he will fall dramatically in the tiers.

but you are being modest. i am unafraid. i have loudly and bravely proclaimed him not even top 10. this will be common knowledge after evo, and i will be treated as a prophet, a sage.

i come from 3d games and if you aren't reacting to 20 frame lows, you're probably losing, so theres that.

i still think atrocitus has some things that are very strong about him. cat lets him negate neutral, he still does an ass ton of damage and has some good pressure. just the mix is incredibly overrated.

 

[SunsetBlvd]

You can't just have meter to pushblock, this statement is dumb on so many levels.

if the idea of conserving meter to push block atro trait pressure sounds foreign or "dumb" to you, then you just suck. no other way to say it.

You need to pushblock 3 times for cat to go away

again, all you're really saying here is "i suck at this game". i want you to realize this, so i'll explain: yes, if you literally push block instantly every hit and he spends literally no trait himself to pressure you (aka you suck at push blocking), then maybe it takes 3 times. but the fact that you think this scenario is realistic is amusing to me.

to see someone so willing and eager to loudly expose how little they know about the game is enjoyable to watch. please continue.

 

[SunsetBlvd]

i still think atrocitus has some things that are very strong about him. cat lets him negate neutral, he still does an ass ton of damage and has some good pressure. just the mix is incredibly overrated.

he'll always be decent because of his advancing mid strings. it's just going to be very difficult/impossibe to beat players of equal skill/decent character that know the matchup.

i've mained him since literal day 0. about two weeks ago i saw where all this was headed (while everyone was insisting he was top 3) and i started trying to work out what to do when everyone starts to push block his trait and starts blocking the 20 frame low "mixup" every single time. i was trying like shield dash into mb f3 or shield dash into d3 into trait combo or something, just stupid stuff to try to create some 50/50 thats just not there.

i have a long way to go as a player, but i definitely know what atrocitus is capable of conceptually as well as anyone does, and now i'm seeing what i predicted weeks ago come to fruition in tournaments. it's a bummer but then i realized i could just stop playing him and pick a different character..

 

[jokey77]

(...)

I don't even hate the top tiers, I just think they don't really need to be this dumb to be good.

... so much THIS !!!

 

[RM Jonnitti]

he'll always be decent because of his advancing mid strings. it's just going to be very difficult/impossibe to beat players of equal skill/decent character that know the matchup.

i've mained him since literal day 0. about two weeks ago i saw where all this was headed (while everyone was insisting he was top 3) and i started trying to work out what to do when everyone starts to push block his trait and starts blocking the 20 frame low "mixup" every single time. i was trying like shield dash into mb f3 or shield dash into d3 into trait combo or something, just stupid stuff to try to create some 50/50 thats just not there.

i have a long way to go as a player, but i definitely know what atrocitus is capable of conceptually as well as anyone does, and now i'm seeing what i predicted weeks ago come to fruition in tournaments. it's a bummer but then i realized i could just stop playing him and pick a different character..

honestly dont think anyone should play a character that they don't genuinely believe in. you just end up going into matches with a losing ass mentality and it already hinders how far you can go with that character. id recommend you to switch

 

[SunsetBlvd]

honestly dont think anyone should play a character that they don't genuinely believe in. you just end up going into matches with a losing ass mentality and it already hinders how far you can go with that character. id recommend you to switch

oh i broke up with atro over a week ago. now i'm posting all our private e-mails and love notes, exposing all his secrets.