What's new

Thoughts on current state of tournament character selection (Adam/Aquaman)

SunsetBlvd

Proven Nappa GOD, 100% VERIFIED Best Nappa NA
Just gave a perfect example. Superman does safe special better than the safe special character (doctor fate). Doesn't seem right to me because black Adam does safe special better too at -3
ahh now it makes perfect sense, you're absolutely right, that is truly proof that balance is "non-existent" in I2
 

kcd117

Noob
IJ2 is the most balanced nrs game to date, I believe the game mechanics allow every character to deal with every situation, every character has the tools to apply their gameplan imho.

Now my only problem with the game is that some characters like scarecrow, cheetah, blue beetle, firestorm are really deep and interesting, they have unique and effective strenghts but also have a few downsides to keep them fair, while characters like batman, superman, aquaman, and adam can do what some characters do better and have little to no weaknesses.

Never gonna understand why batman has infinite plus frames on mb batarang, ridiculous jump ins that jail into his insane pressure and amazing zoning tools. Or superman's f23 being an 8 frame mid launcher at -2 on block that can lead to 50% combos into 50/50 otgs in the corner for another 50% combo. Black adam's fullscreen plus on block launcher and dmg scalling are beyond my comprehension. Aqua's plus frames pressure and crazy chip dmg are one of the dumbest things I've ever seen.

nrs did an amazing job designing most of the characters, they really nailed it. But honestly a few others look like they were designed for a chimpanzee to play them.
 

Fred Marvel

It's actually Freddy Marvel
yeah that's definitely not what they're doing. no one wakes up saying "oh lets make motherfucking aquaman broke and joker ass" like bruh from a marketing stand point, from a developer stand point, from a anything other than 'ultimate troll' stand point, that makes no sense
I never said broke, but they do intend to make superman great it's not a coincidence, they just aren't the greatest at balancing since they thought black adams damage and dead shots designs were fair. If you think he characters that are blatantly top tier are there by coincidence you're mistaken. They have literally said they want to make some characters good idk why you guys are saying it's not what they're doing
 

Kroaken

Life is a block string with no gaps.
Well, I thought I was the only one...

You can say what you want about the balance. Truthfully, it's not THAT horrible.

But if spectators are already skipping through 50% (or more) of matches to see the Whitebois and Coach Steves of the game, something is off this early into the games lifespan.
 
pig of the hut just tweeted that fate is a waste of time in tournaments. dragon played ivy at combobreaker. he played aquaman at ceo. i am not as good as those players. i trust that those players "put in the time", and that a solid month and two tournaments is enough for them to make good judgements, so i'm going with them on that. robin has had success and he is generally considered good but not top 5 (by me).

on your other point, the nash dominance in s1 of SFV was infiltration, period. the only other nash in existence in tournaments was bonchan and he wasn't successful in s1. nash disappeared completely after evo, and so did infiltration. that was like halfway through s1. and everyone said chun li was top tier from the beginning. karin, mika, the same. cammy always flies under the radar for some reason. but what you said in your post is genuinely incorrect.
That was not my point my point though and just because your good at something doesn't mean you can't over look things. Go back and look at older games metas characters have risen and fallen without any changes. My point had nothing to do withsf5 I just used that as an example I will not agree with you about the perception. But the same way you said their was no nash the was definitely no chuns, besides Wong and magic what Karin's but that neither hear nor their. My point is Metas shift on their own as the players get better you can ask all the pros they will the say they can get better as we all get better different characters will rise. Instead of just trying to disprove my argument by only looking at examples I listed and references as a whole look at what point I was trying to make.

Metas shift no matter what character rise and fall with or without the help of patches
 

Zionix

AKA Ponkster
Add some more gear abilities to other characters in competitive mode and they might just have a toolkit that rivals the INJ1 roster.

General change - Players now generate less meter on firing projectiles or traps. Meter build remains same on hit. Moves with invincible frames on wake-up, can no longer be MB for follow-up or plus frames. D2 moves can't be special cancelled on block [except Bane] (still can be special cancelled on hit for combos for plus frames/set-ups or obviously on an Anti Air).

Make it so Batman's trait doesn't recharge when hes holding them. More recovery on his batarangs (like red hood). F3 is now -5 on block, normalized his j2 hitbox and reduced block stun frames..

Change Aquamans FTD to need MB on activation so he can't get easy damage without good read/risk. Reduce MB trident rush chip.

Atrocitus F223 is now (high, mid, over, over) and bf2 is plus 5 on hit (mb stays plus 25) Dexstarr recharge time slightly increased.

Black Adam mb dive kick is now -6 on block and has reduced tracking (think cheetah db2), Trait does 50% less damage per orb on a blocking opponent (my rule of thinking here is, if you keep trait for a hit confirm you will get more out of it than just activating it in the neutral and rolling in or yolo divekick; decision making is important). F121+3 string is now -10 on block. MB lightning strike does 50% less chip. Lightning storm is now -8 with reduced hitbox and pushback. Lightning bombs have faster start-up. Cage wake-up has proper invincible frames. General damage scaling changes to be more in line with the rest of the cast.

Catwomans B3 has an expanded hutbox, increased recovery on 1, f2 to 18 frames from 8 and is now -5 on block. B1,2,up3 is now -10 on block.

Other characters need changes as well and these aren't perfect, but I feel would be a step in the right direction.
 
Last edited:

Nexallus

From Takeda to Robin
The premise of this thread can be scrutinized in at least five different ways, such as when NRS patches the game frequently and prematurely, the company is criticized and mocked by the entire fighting game community. The developers seem to have changed their patching mentality and are apparently allowing the game to evolve at this moment. Nonetheless, people continue complaining.

I am also certain that if Aquaman or Black Adam ever get normalized, other buffed characters will take their place. These characters, whoever they may be, will become ubiquitous at tournaments so the community will continue complaining, similarly to how the community demanded that NRS buff Takeda but quickly changed their attitude toward the character as soon as he became popular in tournaments.

The community also blindly follows top players' opinions and tier lists. When Sonic Fox, for example, posts his top ten list, a majority of players in the NRS community decides to drop the current character and use one of the listed characters whom Sonic Fox perceives to be top tier. As a result, players stop exploring and the meta stops progressing. Ironically, the individual who stuck to his main character, considered to be low tier by most players, has just won the largest Injustice 2 tournament to date.
I won't lie though, but I'm more than glad Takeda got some great changes over MKX's lifespan. That character was so fun and unique to play as.

As for how patches go, the biggest problem with MKX's patches were that they would over-nerf the best characters while over-buffing the other characters. Honestly, they should have done one character change at a time to see how it affected the meta.

Right now in my opinion, all Black Adam would need is a damage nerf. They should make his trait or his new string scale more and then from there, watch how it affects the character.
 

SunsetBlvd

Proven Nappa GOD, 100% VERIFIED Best Nappa NA
Moves with invincible frames on wake-up, can no longer be MB for follow-up or plus frames.
i think this is a little too far. it would have a very significant effect on some characters (some of whom are not even considered good), while having no effect on others (some of whom are already strong). anti-balance change imo.

Trait does 50% less damage on a blocking opponent.
the other stuff is negotiable, but this absolutely has to happen.

General damage scaling changes to be more in line with the rest of the cast.
this as well. his damage makes no sense to me.
 

Zionix

AKA Ponkster
i think this is a little too far. it would have a very significant effect on some characters (some of whom are not even considered good), while having no effect on others (some of whom are already strong). anti-balance change imo.


the other stuff is negotiable, but this absolutely has to happen.


this as well. his damage makes no sense to me.
A core issue with the game in its current state is risk/reward on wake-ups. Some characters have no decision making at all and just wake-up. If you are saying that a character needs that kind of braindead wake-up as part of their kit then it needs addressing in another way.
 

Baconlord

Proud follower of the church of Cetrion
instead of looking up gifs of an overrated basketball player
Ok you just crossed the fucking line. Putting how wrong you are about atrocitus aside, you do not disrespect the greatest basketball player of all time. I bet you're one of those idiots saying that lebron is the goat because he averaged a triple double in a finals that he got mopped in.
 

SunsetBlvd

Proven Nappa GOD, 100% VERIFIED Best Nappa NA
If you are saying that a character needs that kind of braindead wake-up as part of their kit then it needs addressing in another way.
your post was intelligent, so you should know that the debate about the necessity (or lack thereof) of invincible reversals on wakeup has been going on since like the dawn of time. this isn't an issue unique to I2, and both sides of the argument are highly debatable.

edit: i think it could be argued that making them safe (more unique to I2) is also a unique necessity. maybe maybe not idk
 
Last edited:

SunsetBlvd

Proven Nappa GOD, 100% VERIFIED Best Nappa NA
you do not disrespect the greatest basketball player of all time
i never said he wasn't the greatest basketball player of all time, i said he was overrated. the beatles are overrated. atrocitus is perhaps the most overrated of them all.
 

Baconlord

Proud follower of the church of Cetrion
i never said he wasn't the greatest basketball player of all time, i said he was overrated. the beatles are overrated. atrocitus is perhaps the most overrated of them all.
Dude, one of your tips to fight atrocitus was to just eat the overhead. You are aware that the overhead leads into a full combo right
 

SunsetBlvd

Proven Nappa GOD, 100% VERIFIED Best Nappa NA
Dude, one of your tips to fight atrocitus was to just eat the overhead
out of all the tips i posted, a good player might have noticed "you can block nado on reaction" or "push block depletes trait". a bad player might have noticed "eat the overhead". i like to offer a bouqet of thoughts. but since you're being weird, the point is if he commits to 223 he cant nado on reaction to the overhead. i wrote like a fucking paragraph lol. i think you're just a little upset that i insulted your lord micheal. i don't want to confuse bulls fans like you though so ill keep it simple, just push block to make the scary cat go away.
 
Last edited:

JTC

ABILITY TO FREEZE
To me the problem is NRS choosing who they want to be good and creating a top tier and you can see it. they didn't give joker a new 8 frame far reaching starter and over 500 damage off an easy hit confirm they gave it to who they wanted to be top tier. They don't try to balance the game so everyone is fair they go in thinking (let's make sure aquaman superman black Adam and batman are great) then they go from there. That's why the same 5 characters keep winning and this isn't gonna change
I'm starting to believe this as well, there's no way if you want a balanced game you would let these characters keep what they had with BARELY any changes. Lets also give Aquaman +frames too just for the hell of it.

Arthur is my homie but i had to drop him for a bit because i felt like i lost some braincells playing him.

EVO grand finals is going to be great, not going to be surprised when the crowd starts to boo again.
 

JesterSMX

It's too laggy to poke...
A core issue with the game in its current state is risk/reward on wake-ups. Some characters have no decision making at all and just wake-up. If you are saying that a character needs that kind of braindead wake-up as part of their kit then it needs addressing in another way.
I agree. The frames and properties of certain moves leaves the player thinking "Why wouldn't I do it?" while other characters have to evaluate risk. That's my main issue. Make everyone have to think or no one have to think.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Add some more gear abilities to other characters in competitive mode and they might just have a toolkit that rivals the INJ1 roster.

General change - Players now generate less meter on firing projectiles or traps. Meter build remains same on hit. Moves with invincible frames on wake-up, can no longer be MB for follow-up or plus frames. D2 moves can't be special cancelled on block [except Bane] (still can be special cancelled on hit for combos for plus frames/set-ups or obviously on an Anti Air).
Both of these changes are dumb and would hurt the bottom/mid tiers more than the top tiers. Characters like Joker, Firestorm, Fate, Cold etc. all rely on throwing projectiles/traps to build meter so when the opponent inevitably gets in they have a fighting chance. Take that away and the top tiers will only screw them over harder.

I don't get the D2 change at all. Why does it matter that D2's are special cancelable? Again you are mainly screwing characters like Joker and Scarecrow which have good D2s as footsie tools.

The top tiers need to be brought down a bit. That's it. Big gameplay changes will likely have the same result with the tools each of the top tiers have right now.
 
D2 moves can't be special cancelled on block
I feel like this would destroy Swamp Thing, because his down 1 tick has a gap that you can poke through.
Or superman's f23 being an 8 frame mid launcher at -2 on block that can lead to 50% combos into 50/50 otgs in the corner for another 50% combo. Black adam's fullscreen plus on block launcher and dmg scalling are beyond my comprehension.
Superman's f23 leads into 37% midscreen with trait and a bar and 39% in the corner for a bar. And the divebomb conversion after it does 93 damage, or 151 if you want to spend a bar, bringing you up to 50% for two bars.

Black Adams only full screen launcher is black magic, which is -28 and gets you a whole 20% for a bar and trait. I hate the top tiers as much as you do, but don't spread misinformation.
 

Zionix

AKA Ponkster
Both of these changes are dumb and would hurt the bottom/mid tiers more than the top tiers. Characters like Joker, Firestorm, Fate, Cold etc. all rely on throwing projectiles/traps to build meter so when the opponent inevitably gets in they have a fighting chance. Take that away and the top tiers will only screw them over harder.

I don't get the D2 change at all. Why does it matter that D2's are special cancelable? Again you are mainly screwing characters like Joker and Scarecrow which have good D2s as footsie tools.

The top tiers need to be brought down a bit. That's it. Big gameplay changes will likely have the same result with the tools each of the top tiers have right now.
You aren't looking at the big picture at all. The general changes are sweeping changes to re-evaluate the current risk/reward problems with zoning. Its far to rewarding to sit back and hit projectiles while the person at a deficit is getting very little in return.

Using D2 as a footsie tool is a big problem. It negates airborne options and grounded ones. Buffering it into a special that is either safe or provides another offensive option, probably isn't the best thing for the game. More than happy to make it just a high but people would probably moan regardless.