Thoughts on current state of tournament character selection (Adam/Aquaman)

[SunsetBlvd]

Mechanically, it seems like IGAU and I2 are very similar. That doesn't seem to be a problem to me, and it seems like people are fine with that. But I notice a pretty serious issue here. If this has been brought up before, or if it seems redundant, or if it doesn't belong here, just delete me forever while I beg for your sweet forgiveness.

If you look at other fighting games, a legacy character (like Ryu in SF, for example) is generally designed to be playable to anyone who has played him before, regardless of which game they played him in. But look at the differences in those games. Each iteration of SF is massively different. If you saw Daigo play Ryu in SF4, you're still interested to see what he might do with Ryu in SF5 because the game is totally different (in this case worse, but still different).

Personally, I greatly prefer I2 to any version of SF, and I think the decision to leave the game mechanics largely the same as IGAU is a good one. But it's a unique problem, because now you have a number of characters (Adam/Aquaman being the biggest offenders) that are very similar to their IGAU versions, and a game that is largely the same as the first one as well. This might not be a problem if these characters sucked. But they don't suck, they're the absolute top of the tier list.

So who is to blame? You can't blame the players, because they are just picking characters that can win. You can't blame the audience for the generally muted reaction (or outright boos) when another pro picks Aquaman (or whoever), because they're understandably bored of these characters after years of playing/watching them. So who do you blame? I guess ultimately it's NRS' "fault", but it's not that hard to fix, and the game outside of these few characters is (in my opinion) pretty well balanced.

So I guess the solution is sort of obvious..

TLDR: Essentially when we see a Top 8 full of Aquaman/Adam/Superman in 2017, it's too similar to the game people watched for most of the duration of IGAU. The game is largely the same (which is fine), and the (legacy) characters are basically the same (which might be fine if the game itself was different). Same game, same characters = boring. But it's an easy problem to fix, because this doesn't apply to that many characters. Unfortunately, the characters it does apply to are the strongest in the game..

 

[Fred Marvel]

To me the problem is NRS choosing who they want to be good and creating a top tier and you can see it. they didn't give joker a new 8 frame far reaching starter and over 500 damage off an easy hit confirm they gave it to who they wanted to be top tier. They don't try to balance the game so everyone is fair they go in thinking (let's make sure aquaman superman black Adam and batman are great) then they go from there. That's why the same 5 characters keep winning and this isn't gonna change

 

[scootleberry]

As much as I enjoy watching tournaments, if its an archive stream recording, I just skip any fights where Adam, Aqua, Batman, Supes are playing regardless of who is playing them

 

[SunsetBlvd]

As much as I enjoy watching tournaments, if its an archive stream recording, I just skip any fights where Adam, Aqua, Batman, Supes are playing regardless of who is playing them

But that sucks though. I mean, I do the exact same thing, but since those characters are 90% of the top 8, it's like skipping most of the tournament. I feel like this problem needs to be fixed..

 

[SaSSolino]

To me the problem is NRS choosing who they want to be good and creating a top tier and you can see it. they didn't give joker a new 8 frame far reaching starter and over 500 damage off an easy hit confirm they gave it to who they wanted to be top tier. They don't try to balance the game so everyone is fair they go in thinking (let's make sure aquaman superman black Adam and batman are great) then they go from there. That's why the same 5 characters keep winning and this isn't gonna change

I don't think that's how it works

 

[omooba]

but it's not that hard to fix, and the game outside of these few characters is (in my opinion) pretty well balanced.

So I guess the solution is sort of obvious..

TLDR: Essentially when we see a Top 8 full of Aquaman/Adam/Superman in 2017, it's too similar to the game people watched for most of the duration of IGAU. The game is largely the same (which is fine), and the (legacy) characters are basically the same (which might be fine if the game itself was different). Same game, same characters = boring. But it's an easy problem to fix, because this doesn't apply to that many characters. Unfortunately, the characters it does apply to are the strongest in the game..

is it just me or did you not actually say what the solution is...

To me the problem is NRS choosing who they want to be good and creating a top tier and you can see it. they didn't give joker a new 8 frame far reaching starter and over 500 damage off an easy hit confirm they gave it to who they wanted to be top tier. They don't try to balance the game so everyone is fair they go in thinking (let's make sure aquaman superman black Adam and batman are great) then they go from there. That's why the same 5 characters keep winning and this isn't gonna change

yeah that's definitely not what they're doing. no one wakes up saying "oh lets make motherfucking aquaman broke and joker ass" like bruh from a marketing stand point, from a developer stand point, from a anything other than 'ultimate troll' stand point, that makes no sense

 

[JesterSMX]

I get the game is "new" and legacy characters will shine but I want a small patch. Aquaman could be hype if the person watching the stream that doesn't play aqua knows what the aquaman player is gonna do. I'm starting to hear commentators accurately predict specific reactions from braindead characters. Hype killer.

 

[FreedTMG]

Scarecrow just won a major, atrocitus and Darkseid are also making top showings. The game is fine for now, and it's a damn NRS game, we know balance patches are coming. I feel they are waiting til after EVO to do a major balance patch, and that's fine to me. The number of characters showing up in high level play is amazing for a game before any balance has been done.

 

[B. Shazzy]

Scarecrow just won a major, atrocitus and Darkseid are also making top showings. The game is fine for now, and it's a damn NRS game, we know balance patches are coming. I feel they are waiting til after EVO to do a major balance patch, and that's fine to me. The number of characters showing up in high level play is amazing for a game before any balance has been done.

lul nice avatar little buddy reminds me of this one harley player i know

 

[SunsetBlvd]

is it just me or did you not actually say what the solution is...

Oh it's not just you. I was skillfully avoiding saying "nerf Adam/Aquaman/whoever".. I know where that leads..

 

[SunsetBlvd]

The game is fine for now

you're preaching calm and patience, and that's almost always the right answer, so i'm not going to disagree too heavily.

but i do disagree. it's easy to say Top 8's don't matter, or that the crowd's general malaise is meaningless. or that it's early (which is true). but i think if you read my post, i outlined a real problem that isn't going away. people are sick of aquaman/adam/whatever. this is not necessarily my opinion and i'm not arguing for nerfs. but it's on twitter, it's in the boos in the crowd, the dopey black adam masks, it's even in some of the things arma was saying on commentary.

i'm just not super hyped for an evo top 8 that's 90% adam/aquaman/superman.. i'm pretty sure i'm not alone.

edit: also let me add i missed the part of your post where you said they're "probably waiting till after evo" to balance shit. i agree with that, and it's obviously the right way to do it.

 

[FreedTMG]

you're preaching calm and patience, and that's almost always the right answer, so i'm not going to disagree too heavily.

but i do disagree. it's easy to say Top 8's don't matter, or that the crowd's general malaise is meaningless. or that it's early (which is true). but i think if you read my post, i outlined a real problem that isn't going away. people are sick of aquaman/adam/whatever. this is not necessarily my opinion and i'm not arguing for nerfs. but it's on twitter, it's in the boos in the crowd, the dopey black adam masks, it's even in some of the things arma was saying on commentary.

i'm just not super hyped for an evo top 8 that's 90% adam/aquaman/superman.. i'm pretty sure i'm not alone.

edit: also let me add i missed the part of your post where you said they're "probably waiting till after evo" to balance shit. i agree with that, and it's obviously the right way to do it.

I get people are tired of the same stuff, but I'm old school, I remember games having three top characters for years. I know nerfs are needed and will happen, so I am cool with waiting on them. However with the recent Scarecrow win, we have a possibility of another character making a surprise jump. The games still need, and people are slowly branching from the familiar. I myself am still struggling to find a main after having both of mine left out of this game. Unrelated but I like to complain about it often.

 

[Clark L.]

 

[Kooron Nation]

Look at Tekken; characters like Kazuya, Jin, Nina, King, etc. have been in the game for over 10 years, T7 just came out and guess what, they're still the same, but the only difference is they aren't bullshit, since MOST characters have all the same tools available to them, whether they be new or old, where in SF certain characters have certain strengths, whether that be keep out/grappler/rushdown.

Okay so let's look at the top 5 INJ2 in my opinion, what do they have? Zoning, damage, counter zoning, good footsie tools, rushdown, basically everything, and they get to keep all that from IGAU, while the new characters only really have a select amount of tools, so why would you pick someone who excels in one area when you can use Aquaman who excels in all areas?
Take Flash for example, excellent rushdown and that's about it......yet Batman/Superman has excellent rushdown as well as better neutral, zoning, counter zoning.....you get the point

 

[Clark L.]

Look at Tekken; characters like Kazuya, Jin, Nina, King, etc. have been in the game for over 10 years, T7 just came out and guess what, they're still the same, but the only difference is they aren't bullshit, since MOST characters have all the same tools available to them, whether they be new or old, where in SF certain characters have certain strengths, whether that be keep out/grappler/rushdown.

Okay so let's look at the top 5 INJ2 in my opinion, what do they have? Zoning, damage, counter zoning, good footsie tools, rushdown, basically everything, and they get to keep all that from IGAU, while the new characters only really have a select amount of tools, so why would you pick someone who excels in one area when you can use Aquaman who excels in all areas?
Take Flash for example, excellent rushdown and that's about it......yet Batman/Superman has excellent rushdown as well as better neutral, zoning, counter zoning.....you get the point

It's extremely unfair to compare to tekken. Tekken is based on movement, footsies, spacing, etc.

And the only reason people are flocking to aqua and ba, is because although they are super strong, they're extremely easy to pick up. If atrocious was as braindead, (in terms of how easy it is to learn and do the combos) you would've seen even more.

 

[Igniz13]

NRS: Wanna pay RPS? Here's a rusty pair of scissors.
Players: Can't I use those rock scissors that can cut through rocks, paper and scissors can't beat them easy?
NRS: why not try the wet paper? Pay us $3 and you can use soggy paper with unique model and voice acting

 

[BigMacMcLovin]

It's extremely unfair to compare to tekken. Tekken is based on movement, footsies, spacing, etc.

And the only reason people are flocking to aqua and ba, is because although they are super strong, they're extremely easy to pick up. If atrocious was as braindead, (in terms of how easy it is to learn and do the combos) you would've seen even more.

What's hard about activating trait and using immediately to force your opponent to block then mashing advancing mid into OH for OKI or low for full combo? If the opponent ever blocks a string just puke and be cool.

 

[BaronVonRupert]

What's hard about activating trait and using immediately to force your opponent to block then mashing advancing mid into OH for OKI or low for full combo? If the opponent ever blocks a string just puke and be cool.

He clearly said in terms of combos. C'mon MAAAAAN.

 

[Helter Skelter]

The real issue to me is that game and characters are quite clearly designed to utilize the ability moves that can be unlocked. Yes, they may need balancing but no amount of buffs will improve characters who have moves that should be in their toolsets.

I truly believe that Competitive Mode should have the random cosmetic stuff.
Then you choose a character.
Then you choose your moves.
Then you choose your stage.

Why that was never implemented is beyond me.

 

[Clark L.]

What's hard about activating trait and using immediately to force your opponent to block then mashing advancing mid into OH for OKI or low for full combo? If the opponent ever blocks a string just puke and be cool.

I'm not saying he's hard to use at all, but anyone with a controller can figure out how to use black adam and do 600. damage.
It's just easy, that's my point of why so many people are going to him.

 

[navaroNe]

Personally I'd kind of like to see them make some very minor changes to black Adam, aquaman, and batman before evo. I feel like right now is the best time to attract as many viewers and players as possible for these tournaments in order to attract more media attention to help our community grow. I feel like black Adam and aquaman are the two things holding this game back the most right now from being as hype as it should be. CEO top 8 was great , but let's not pretend that whiteboi wasn't our saviour because without him it would have been a far less exciting top 8 with nothing but aquaman , black adam, batman and superman. Also just to be clear I don't really think superman is a problem, I think he's in a pretty good spot right now

 

[Eddy Wang]

This thread is terrible, blaming NRS because legacy characters are currently dominating, comparing Injustice 2 to Tekken Lmao

Tekken is a game where general mechanics can beat pretty much anything in the game even if you main the shittiest character for years, in tekken you play not only the character, but the player as well, and the game takes like 2 years to hit the consoles, so the balance is done in the arcades, for those who doesn't know, Shaheen and Claudio used to dominate in vanilla version with safe hopkicks and 50-50 out of the ass, guaranteed hits into 50-50 on grounded characters, shaheen slide was also hard to pick up.

There is nothing or anyone to blame, the game is developing just as fast, not far ago everyone was so worried about Deadshot and everyone quick jumped the gun into nerfing the character.

In my entire IGAU lifespan i've never seen Green Arrow Dominating Superman, saw that in the top 8 of CEO.


And to be honest as much as Black Adam is considered top or dominating, this game feels pretty balanced, pretty sure when the time comes there will be some obvious nerfs, but there is no one or nothing to blame here, just keep playing the game.

My wish list on the patch is just refining the input system nothing else.

 

[Clark L.]

Oh and for the tekken reference:

The only characters used in CEO top 8 respectively were:

1) Dragonov
2) Hwoarang
3) Hiehachi
4) Feng
5) Law
6) Jack
7) Bob
8) Josie


Now let's look at injustice 2 top 8, and see what characters were used:

1) Scarecrow
2) Batman
3) Aquaman
4) Black Adam
5) Atrocitus
6) Joker
7) Superman
8) Green Arrow

 

[FreedTMG]

Oh and for the tekken reference:

The only characters used in CEO top 8 respectively were:

1) Dragonov
2) Hwoarang
3) Hiehachi
4) Feng
5) Law
6) Jack
7) Bob
8) Josie


Now let's look at injustice 2 top 8, and see what characters were used:

1) Scarecrow
2) Batman
3) Aquaman
4) Black Adam
5) Atrocitus
6) Joker
7) Superman
8) Green Arrow

That Joker match was hype, but people acting like it was all three characters.

 

[M2Dave]

The premise of this thread can be scrutinized in at least five different ways, such as when NRS patches the game frequently and prematurely, the company is criticized and mocked by the entire fighting game community. The developers seem to have changed their patching mentality and are apparently allowing the game to evolve at this moment. Nonetheless, people continue complaining.

I am also certain that if Aquaman or Black Adam ever get normalized, other buffed characters will take their place. These characters, whoever they may be, will become ubiquitous at tournaments so the community will continue complaining, similarly to how the community demanded that NRS buff Takeda but quickly changed their attitude toward the character as soon as he became popular in tournaments.

The community also blindly follows top players' opinions and tier lists. When Sonic Fox, for example, posts his top ten list, a majority of players in the NRS community decides to drop the current character and use one of the listed characters whom Sonic Fox perceives to be top tier. As a result, players stop exploring and the meta stops progressing. Ironically, the individual who stuck to his main character, considered to be low tier by most players, has just won the largest Injustice 2 tournament to date.