The End of Execution for Mortal Kombat? Podcast Discussion.

[Zhidoreptiloid]

"Easy to learn, hard to master"
Make inputs hard and you kill that formula.
Make deepness and hi-level content not by complication of inputs, but by deep mexhanic with many counters (for example - in SC6 You can GI opponent's strike, and you have choice - make your own hit or make guard crush - if your opponent like to press buttons, you will win with your own hit and loose with guard crush attack, if he wants to re-GI he will loose to gurad crush and win your own hit. And if you have level 1 GI, he can just respect you and block or step and counter your guard crush on the read. That is VERY simple in terms of input, but hard in terms of mindgames), by difficult MU or easy t input, but hard to use in combat instruments

 

[Gooberking]

If they were not difficult to do, why did NRS change the inputs "based on feedback" on social media? I know the reason. Casual gamers.

And again for the 100th time, nobody is arguing the difficult inputs would have turned Mortal Kombat 11 into the next Virtua Fighter, but the idea was a step into the right direction in terms of the game being more difficult to play, even if this difficulty involved mere memorization. Besides, Tekken 7 has a plethora of memorization, yet the game is universally acclaimed as one of the best fighting games in recent times.

Why is that a step in the right direction? Who decided that? Why does every game have to be like some other more "respected" game? Who decided it should be more respected, and by what criteria? Does MK really need to be an Olympic sport?

Why is it every time some disagrees with you it turns into some name calling tirade where people are basically dumb butter because they don't FG as good as you? When did being good a stupid video game become a basic requirement for simply not being insulted?

 

[Hitoshura]

I think @Tom Brady makes a good point when it comes to the accessibility of fighting games. This is a trend that I've been seeing this era of fighting games that are esports focused and is covered in a video by MacSplicer on YouTube titled The FGC's Identity.

There is a tug of war between players and identity within the community. The current age of fighting games have been making an attempt to create games more accessible for those who want to learn how to play the game. This can be seen as a good thing depending on the perspective of the player which was the point @Zyphox was presenting to Brady. I can get behind the perspective that accessibility can be a good thing for fighting games, but only if applied to the execution of basic strings in a game. I for one am not a fan of fighting games that have very small windows of input for basic level execution. It becomes a commitment at that point just to learn the basics of the game in order to play. An example would be games like KoF where certain links could be 1-2/3 frames just to link basic strings together. It can prove to be stressful for some. I think the real issue is that developers tend add too much "quality of life" changes to a game which ultimately lowers the skill ceiling.

When the ceiling drops those who are skilled enough will get bored of the game quickly and move onto something else. When the technical mechanics of the game become accessible, it takes less time and focus to mastering the game, leaving high level play sterilized and uninteresting to play and/or watch. The strategy of the game slowly dissipates and becomes a game of automatic universal answers rather than using unique tools at specific times against certain characters to best them. Also, when the skill ceiling drops players with less skill become more of a threat at competitive events. Accessibility can make the usage of tools and mechanics simple and require less focus to out do someone in a match. This makes being good at a game more common and those with the high levels of focus, yomi and hand eye ordination can be stomped by anyone with less skill than them.

There are fighting games that have become more accessible and still maintain a high skill ceiling. @General M2Dave makes mention of Tekken 7 as an example of this. Guilty Gear Xrd is one I can name and love. Both games have made quality of life changes when learning the basics of the game, but they still maintain a high skill ceiling where depth is still maintained.

Fighting games are strategic by nature. Strategy requires one to think on their feet, know their opponent, anticipate what their opponent may do, and be able to react fairly quickly and consistently. These are all traits not everyone has. They can be taught, but not everyone is going to be able to learn them either due to limitation or lack of interest. Those who do not have it will realize that, then proceed to move onto something else, a point Brady makes when using bowling as an example. Making the game easier to play removes a lot of the philosophies that come with strategy. I get that this wave of fighting games are esports focused and want to add more players to the fray, but this isn't done in the NFL or any other professional sport league, so why should this be a trend for esports?

This podcast was enjoyable.

 

[Zhidoreptiloid]

I honestly can't believe you or anyone else supports different inputs for amplified moves. It's not like it's hard to do and suddenly makes you a god of execution and better than the rest, it's just a nuisance that makes you fill your brain with more rubbish instead of actually focusing on the stuff that matters.

This. There is no any reason for existence of amplify inputs

 

[NothingPersonal]

Get ready for the same cycle

*in 5 months* you know injustice 2 is better than mk11, fuck this game!

Injustice will never be better than MK.

 

[Zhidoreptiloid]

Injustice will never be better than MK.

Injustice 2 already better than braindead MKX

 

[NothingPersonal]

Injustice 2 already better than braindead MKX

Your avatar is the worst

 

[Jackdiesel05]

I honestly can't believe you or anyone else supports different inputs for amplified moves. It's not like it's hard to do and suddenly makes you a god of execution and better than the rest, it's just a nuisance that makes you fill your brain with more rubbish instead of actually focusing on the stuff that matters.

Making the easier will shorten the life span of the game,just like mkx and injustice 2

 

[Evil Canadian]

Making the easier will shorten the life span of the game,just like mkx and injustice 2

yeah if subzero you hit up up up+1 after a freeze to EX it, that will add at least 2 years to the games lifespan imo

 

[Jackdiesel05]

Yeah if you vote no, you are a scrub.

If you vote yes you are a scrub

 

[Jackdiesel05]

yeah if subzero you hit up up up+1 after a freeze to EX it, that will add at least 2 years to the games lifespan imo

You have to get rewarded if you spend time with a character. Nrs games are the only games that allows you to jump from character to character in a short period of time with EASE

 

[Evil Canadian]

You have to get rewarded if you spend time with a character. Nrs games are the only games that allows you to jump from character to character in a short period of time with EASE

complexity of motion is not complexity of character depth, only a complete novice would assume this to be the case.

 

[MagicMan357]

You have to get rewarded if you spend time with a character. Nrs games are the only games that allows you to jump from character to character in a short period of time with EASE

This is a huge lie that people keep saying because other people are saying it. NRS games die because people suck ass at them, thats it period.

 

[MagicMan357]

complexity of motion is not complexity of character depth, only a complete novice would assume this to be the case.

These guys want any excuse to hate on mk before it even out, they act like adding ff1 to a comjmand was gonna make the game last lmao

 

[gitblame]

I understand your concers and I share some of them. I am more on the casual side and I only experience high level gameplay by watching it at the tournaments, but I don't want this game to die after an year just like you.

With that said, I think we have to separate issues with game being too easy and bigger amount of universal mechanics. Tom was ranting about wakeups option being universal and simple. Tekken was many times mentioned as a game done right in aspect of depth. I wanted to say, Tekken is filled with universal mechanics. Wakeup system is one of them. I think NRS really hitting the right spot with this wakeup system and none of the previous NRS games had getting up game with so much depth in it.

Having more universal mechanics does not translate to game being simplified and being made for casual audience.

Huge props for doing this podcast General M2Dave. It's really enjoyable

 

[Johnny Based Cage]

Stfu M2Dave when have you ever learned anything beyond the inputs for 2-3 projectiles, dash and throw in any fighting game ever?

 

[BarakaTile]

If they were not difficult to do, why did NRS change the inputs "based on feedback" on social media? I know the reason. Casual gamers.

And again for the 100th time, nobody is arguing the difficult inputs would have turned Mortal Kombat 11 into the next Virtua Fighter, but the idea was a step into the right direction in terms of the game being more difficult to play, even if this difficulty involved mere memorization. Besides, Tekken 7 has a plethora of memorization, yet the game is universally acclaimed as one of the best fighting games in recent times.

And a bunch of new mechanics like Supers and Super Moves and features like Easy Combo brought in because Tag2 didn't sell as good.

 

[gitblame]

Also. We can't really say that amplify input change was made because of ranting casuals. I saw couple of players who were at the reveal, placing top 8 in both Injustice and MKX and they were vocal about this being unnecesary.

And most important, Ed Boon said at the reveal that separate amplify inputs for each move might be changed, because for that moment they were not sure about it. If Ed Boon didn't like this idea in the first place it might be a real reason why it was changed.

 

[M.D.]

The main argument is that simplified inputs won't generate hype at tournaments.
Which I believe is wrong.

If you watch all evo tournaments in all games including hard input ones (kof XIII, ggxrd, umvc3), nobody cares about the inputs. The hype is generated from the setups, mind games, clutch punishes, reads, which constitute the actual skill, not execution barrier grind which is brawn.

The combos are taken for granted. They are pro players, so naturally they will combo, no doubt about it. What counts is how they use it.

The only people who don't like this are the players that hide against a wall of grind to avoid better skilled players that don't or didn't have time to grind the game as much.

The time for this is over and more and more people are realizing it. You don't see any new players complain about this, and still, the better players win.

 

[BarakaTile]

Making the easier will shorten the life span of the game,just like mkx and injustice 2

That's not going to do shit to the lifespan of this game.

But you know what is? When I3 is announced and then that I3 scene will die when MK12 comes out and so on.

There's a reason we're dubbed as the NRS community rather than getting MK Community or Injustice Community like the Tekken & Soul Calibur Communities do despite both being Namco or Marvel & Street Fighter despite both being Capcom.

I hear I2 is a much better game than MKX and yet...where'd everybody go? Why isn't anybody playing it anymore?

 

[pure.Wasted]

If they were not difficult to do, why did NRS change the inputs "based on feedback" on social media? I know the reason. Casual gamers.

You're confusing "more annoying" with "more difficult." Making a mechanic that is a tiny bit more difficult, and a FUCKTON more annoying, is never a good idea.

And unless you're already a pro, you shouldn't be worried about how difficult the game is to play anyway, because it's obviously too difficult for you already.

 

[Tweedy]

It's really hard to make this post without coming off as an elitist, but I really don't understand why people care that much about combos and execution. I was watching Scar vs Semiiij on Destroyer's stream, Semiiij whiff punished Smoke's b2 with Mileena's s1, and the chat was just like "whoa that combo", when Semiiij converted it into a basic bnb that mileenalover69 on ranked does. No one said anything about the whiff punish lol. I don't understand that, to me the exciting part of matches is the mind games between players. Combos and execution have so little to do with who wins on NRS games.

 

[HeroesNZ]

Brady was spitting hard facts, 10/10 would listen again.

I think it's a damn shame the amplified input got changed but it's about more than that. It's about who NRS is catering for and the direction they're going in. MK11 seems super barebones and once we've seen every Fatal and Krushing Blow a million times, what will be left? Stray hits and 2 second combos that get dropped out of anyway?

I'm hype for MK11 because I can't wait to compete again, but I have some serious concerns over the actual game. I will say though that because everything seems super barebones, it looks like matchups will be less polarising. I don't think counterpicking will be as rampant because there's less need to do so. Execution is hype but so is diversity - we shouldn't have to choose between one or the other but at least we should have the latter

 

[Zhidoreptiloid]

Your avatar is the worst

My avatar is bad, but not so bad, as slasher, called "mkx"

 

[Zhidoreptiloid]

The main argument is that simplified inputs won't generate hype at tournaments.
Which I believe is wrong.

If you watch all evo tournaments in all games including hard input ones (kof XIII, ggxrd, umvc3), nobody cares about the inputs. The hype is generated from the setups, mind games, clutch punishes, reads, which constitute the actual skill, not execution barrier grind which is brawn.

The combos are taken for granted. They are pro players, so naturally they will combo, no doubt about it. What counts is how they use it.

The only people who don't like this are the players that hide against a wall of grind to avoid better skilled players that don't or didn't have time to grind the game as much.

The time for this is over and more and more people are realizing it. You don't see any new players complain about this, and still, the better players win.

This

It's really hard to make this post without coming off as an elitist, but I really don't understand why people care that much about combos and execution. I was watching Scar vs Semiiij on Destroyer's stream, Semiiij whiff punished Smoke's b2 with Mileena's s1, and the chat was just like "whoa that combo", when Semiiij converted it into a basic bnb that mileenalover69 on ranked does. No one said anything about the whiff punish lol. I don't understand that, to me the exciting part of matches is the mind games between players. Combos and execution have so little to do with who wins on NRS games.

Because NRS-community loves outer beauty (wow dat combo wow dat effects) and dont see inner beauty of mindgames and fighting fundamentals - for these people guys, who plays in chess just two nerds, who moves boring wooden figures, they dont see mindgames or they dont see calculating on a few moves ahead. They see only shell SWAGGY COMBO CANCELS NINJAKILLA CANCELS WHOOAAA 4 FIREBALLS SUCH SKILL