The End of Execution for Mortal Kombat? Podcast Discussion.

[KidVanDal]

I liked the 'old' input, not because I thought it'd be high execution or anything.

I just liked the idea that the same special could have more than one amplify input, kinda like stances.

I like stances.

 

[The_Tile]

If they were not difficult to do, why did NRS change the inputs "based on feedback" on social media? I know the reason. Casual gamers.

And again for the 100th time, nobody is arguing the difficult inputs would have turned Mortal Kombat 11 into the next Virtua Fighter, but the idea was a step into the right direction in terms of the game being more difficult to play, even if this difficulty involved mere memorization. Besides, Tekken 7 has a plethora of memorization, yet the game is universally acclaimed as one of the best fighting games in recent times.

If it really only affects casual gamers why do you even give a shit? It isn't gonna affect anyone who's past the most basic execution barrier of FGs either way so who cares

 

[Lokheit]

I presume people will argue about the inputs of amplified moves in this thread, and I purposely created a publicly visible poll to identify the scrubs.

However, someone in this community must speak up about the apparent lack of Rain in this game. Look at the results of this poll on Event Hubs. Just yesterday I saw ignorant comments on various status updates about Rain having no fans. Apologize. Every single one of you.

1) How just pressing a different button, no skill or timing required, just memorizing more stuff, makes anyone a scrub? Those inputs added zero depth to input complexity, they were different because potato. The argument here isn't that they were hard, it's that they weren't necessary as the skill level was the exact same.

I LOLed at the notion that you were creating a scrub blacklist based on that when there's zero skill gap between both options.

2) Do you realize a person can vote a gazillion times in that poll? Give ZERO credibility to those results. I'm tempted to force Jarek, Kai, Darrius, Dairou and Kobra into the top 5, but it would make me feel dirty.

 

[GLoRToR]

"Execution Barrier" is a slang word for "Fake Difficulty".

Fighting games take skill to play well even if your fireball doesn't break your hand.

 

[Lokheit]

"Execution Barrier" is a slang word for "Fake Difficulty".

Fighting games take skill to play well even if your fireball doesn't break your hand.

This.

I love that MK11 is focusing more on universal fundamentals rather than pressing more stuff than needed per command which is fake difficulty.

And btw, no one is talking about MK11 introducing a hype mechanic that NEEDS SKILL AND TIMING and will create awesome moments for sure:

Flawless block.

This mechanic by itself is going to generate a lot of cool moments only achievable by pure skill. This is how you make skill useful in a fighting games, not by changing inputs of a command.

 

[darthbrooks]

at ~24:50: Knee plays more than six characters competitively, lol

 

[GLoRToR]

This.

I love that MK11 is focusing more on universal fundamentals rather than pressing more stuff than needed per command which is fake difficulty.

And btw, no one is talking about MK11 introducing a hype mechanic that NEEDS SKILL AND TIMING and will create awesome moments for sure:

Flawless block.

This mechanic by itself is going to generate a lot of cool moments only achievable by pure skill. This is how you make skill useful in a fighting games, not by changing inputs of a command.

I already hate justframe blocking in soul calibur tbh.

 

[Rearawt]

Any argument that centres around the idea that "it's unnecessary" is bunk. It's such a vague meaningless phrase, no one thing is "necessary". Put some thought into why you feel that way.

Ditto for arguments comparing fighting games to chess, or insisting that execution is worthless and shouldn't matter. If it really were true that all you care about is strategy, mind games, and reads you'd be playing actual chess. If everything but execution were really considered worthless in fighting games everyone would just be playing Divekick all the time.

"Skill" at fighting games is a complex concept, and it absolutely includes things like execution and memorisation. That's not a bad thing.

 

[Lokheit]

I already hate justframe blocking in soul calibur tbh.

The good thing here is that flawless block costs resources that you can just expend on other stuff if you don't think you can rely on them, so there are different things you can do with the resources, but for the competitive scene it's great. If a grand finals ends with a pressure string on pixel health being flawless blocked for a comeback it would be magical.

 

[thesacrifist]

I think this is blown out of proportion. Won't matter any for the longevity of the game either way. I'm guessing the reason they added unique inputs was for characters to feel more different even though they have streamlined combos, wake-ups etc. a bit making the characters play more similar. It was a way to mask the homogenization of mechanics is my theory, or just a fun experiment.

 

[Mind Flex]

Complaining about something that never even made it to day one release is just being salty. I liked the idea of added inputs, but wanting easy buttons doesnt make you a scrub. Being a scrub is a mentality. There are good and bad players that act like scrubs. It seems to me that complaining about not getting free wins from players with poor execution is scrub mentality. If you are really a high level competitor then you should assume your real comptetition will have all these memorized for their mains in a day. Also why isnt there a thread about fatal blows not having unique inputs? Its literally an even worse example of inputs that are too easy.

I thought it was a cool new feature but NRS scrapped it. There is still plenty of things in MK11 to be excited about. Just get over it and move on.

 

[Kiss the Missile]

The only reason I was excited for the feature is because like Brady said, it opened the gates to allow for moves to have multiple meterburn paths. But I'm sure that if NRS had even planned for that, they'd find a way around it. Some moves in MKX already had "secret" inputs like side switching on command grabs and whatnot.

I like the change overall only because I was looking forward to playing Baraka, but I hated the idea of mashing to extend his Chop Chop. If you mashed too hard, it would amplify too fast and lessen the hits. Pressing a single button will make it easier to maximize the number of hits.

 

[Wetdoba]

I get that you guys are arguing about setting a precedent but I think this is a bad example. I don't think the old amplify inputs add any real depth to the game it's just 10 extra minutes learning inputs in training mode. also I have enough faith in nrs to think that they didn't just make this change because people were whining. I'm sure that if they really thought the old system was the best way to go they would have just stick with it. I'm sure that both the qa and design team agreed that this was a better direction to go in.

Nrs specifically said on the kast they changed it because of people complaining

 

[Marlow]

Is changing the Amplify to a universal one button, or having all wakeups be universal really that much of a change in execution? Those don't seem like big changes to me either way in terms of how execution heavy a game is. The parts of fighting games I struggle to execute is spacing, whiff punishing, hit confirms, stuff like that that.

 

[ImperatrixSindel]

the idea was a step into the right direction in terms of the game being more difficult to play

I realize this site is focused on competitive-level play, but this would be the most bonkers possible approach to game design.

 

[Johnny Based Cage]

Clicking “up + square” or whatever other amplify inputs they scrapped literally didn’t require any more executional difficulty than hitting “rb,” only more time to learn.

And people like M2Dave only want NRS to keep the things that arbitrarily separate them from casuals via the amount of time they’ll put into the game because they know their skill level alone isn’t high enough to separate them.

 

[Bloodfang]

IF there was an option for multiple different branching Amplifications than the new commands would have been absolutely necessary and awesome and accepted by everyone without complaint. That is not the case as far as we know. They probably would not have changed it had anything like that even been planned. Which is unfortunate as option select Amplifieds would have been a great and welcome inclusion to add more depth, hype, and skill.

Edit: Apparently Sonic Fox is a scrub. He was one of the ones who said the change was pointless.

 

[Vslayer]

Even a game like SF has universal enhanced inputs. Universal buttons are way better imo because trying to learn more than one character would have been complete hell. There is more to fighting games than the inputs and many, many other things that can make you a good player. If y'all are just gonna get stuck on this then you're gonna miss out on getting better with other important mechanics.

 

[Wetdoba]

Tom Brady said it best. If learning special move inputs is too hard now what will be too hard next? They already changed command grab inputs for being too hard, now the new mb specials are being reverted because learning inputs in general is too hard.

My guess is flawless blocking will be the next mechanic deemed too hard and everyone will complain that the window is too small and it should be bigger so any online joe can pretend like theyre Daigo without putting in the work. I mean execution doesnt matter right so as long as you know that you have to flawless block a move to punish thats all that matters, you shouldnt actually be expected to do the flawless block input yourself.

Try actually showing up to a tournament and complaining to a TO that that last game you lost due to an execution error shouldnt actually count as a loss because you had the read but not the execution lmao

 

[SaSSolino]

I agree with some of the things said in the podcast, but not all. Having simpler inputs doesn't hurt depth in any way, so there's nothing wrong with it.

 

[Bloodfang]

Tom Brady said it best. If learning special move inputs is too hard now what will be too hard next? They already changed command grab inputs for being too hard, now the new mb specials are being reverted because learning inputs in general is too hard.

My guess is flawless blocking will be the next mechanic deemed too hard and everyone will complain that the window is too small and it should be bigger so any online joe can pretend like theyre Daigo without putting in the work. I mean execution doesnt matter right so as long as you know that you have to flawless block a move to punish thats all that matters, you shouldnt actually be expected to do the flawless block input yourself.

Try actually showing up to a tournament and complaining to a TO that that last game you lost due to an execution error shouldnt actually count as a loss because you had the read but not the execution lmao

Slippery slope arguments are still invalid. The changes aren't significant enough for this to be in the ballpark of truth. For the record, I'm in favor of it being an optional system.

 

[Vslayer]

Tom Brady said it best. If learning special move inputs is too hard now what will be too hard next? They already changed command grab inputs for being too hard, now the new mb specials are being reverted because learning inputs in general is too hard.

My guess is flawless blocking will be the next mechanic deemed too hard and everyone will complain that the window is too small and it should be bigger so any online joe can pretend like theyre Daigo without putting in the work. I mean execution doesnt matter right so as long as you know that you have to flawless block a move to punish thats all that matters, you shouldnt actually be expected to do the flawless block input yourself.

Try actually showing up to a tournament and complaining to a TO that that last game you lost due to an execution error shouldnt actually count as a loss because you had the read but not the execution lmao

No. it's not because people deem something too hard that it's actually a tool that will help people learn and get better at a game. Some things are just complete shit. Like how DBF is cancer, they could have used quarter circles instead which are 100x better.

Universal inputs to enhance are fine, IF they would have made the extra inputs, for example, tapping the same face button as the special another time, then sure whatever, but different directional inputs for every move? That is useless.

 

[Eddy Wang]

I don't think that the game being more difficult = it's taking a step in the right direction. Isn't the entire point of NRS games is the fact that they are simple to play? Like don't get me wrong, I don't want to see them become too simple -- just that they stay the same. That's part of the reason why I wanted the universal Amplify input to be a thing, because that's how it was done in past games and there wasn't really a reason to change it.

As for unique Amplify inputs being a step in the right direction specifically, I disagree with that also. If NRS were to make their games deeper and more difficult I would want them to achieve that by giving characters more moves and things like that, not by adding unnecessary inputs.

There was a reason to change, accidental MB, EX moves and such, which is why i still don't trust this new one button amplify thing even if they say that its safe now, there is a reason why isn't on the block button anymore.

One of the things that makes me like less its due how i have to change my button layout on stick, and it will feel a bit odd to readjust to, so the extra inputs options allows stick players to keep their layout and not accidentally trigger interactables per say.

 

[Rearawt]

No. it's not because people deem something too hard that it's actually a tool that will help people learn and get better at a game. Some things are just complete shit. Like how DBF is cancer, they could have used quarter circles instead which are 100x better.

Universal inputs to enhance are fine, IF they would have made the extra inputs, for example, tapping the same face button as the special another time, then sure whatever, but different directional inputs for every move? That is useless.

What's shit and useless are these arguments. "X is cancer" is not a point that anyone will spend any time to consider

 

[Bloodfang]

There was a reason to change, accidental MB, EX moves and such, which is why i still don't trust this new one button amplify thing even if they say that its safe now, there is a reason why isn't on the block button anymore.

One of the things that makes me like less its due how i have to change my button layout on stick, and it will feel a bit odd to readjust to, so the extra inputs options allows stick players to keep their layout and not accidentally trigger interactables per say.

As a stick player your argument makes perfect sense. I play controller so it is far less of an issue.