Sonic Fox's criticism of Mortal Kombat 11

[DarkSado]

I think I'm in the minority of people that don't really mind Breakaway. Sure, I'd prefer Breakers to come back because they're neutral and all that but as a Kotal and Cetrion main, if someone breaks out of my BnB and I get punished for it (which is, like, 7/8 times out of 10 with Kotal lol) then that's on ME. I like having to take into account that they may Breakaway and like the idea of catching them out on that and meaty-ing them for their effort. That all said though, again, I would still rather Breakers come back and just reset the neutral. That way it's exactly that, neutral.

Fatal Blows already are death on block, it's just the pushback makes them nearly unpunishable. You'd think the top 1% of NRS players would just Flawless Block them to take away the pushback entirely but what would I know, I'm just one of the 99% that are trash lol. EDIT: I LITERALLY JUST DID THIS ON MY 2ND ATTEMPT IN PRACTICE. Some Fatal Blows would probably be too fast to react to but, still, if you read it it really shouldn't be a problem.

Also, u2's are fine. Seeing someone u2 a gap in a string or use to punish something that isn't usually punishable (Scorpion's f34 for example) is HYPE AF.

You should NOT GET PUNISH FOR HITTING YOUR OPPENET! How are you guys okay with this this is so weird?

 

[GeoffBedlam]

You should NOT GET PUNISH FOR HITTING YOUR OPPENET! How are you guys okay with this this is so weird?

Like I said, a lot of the time it's on me for not reading the Breakaway that 9 times out of 10 comes at the end of my BnB where I'm still in recovery. What I'm not getting is why is everyone so up in arms about it? I get that some characters benefit and/or suffer from it more than others but what else is there?

 

[Benlo]

MK 11 is advertised as a neutral game but it's not.

Breakers were neutral, breakaway are just punish moves.

 

[Hellbringer]

Like I said, a lot of the time it's on me for not reading the Breakaway that 9 times out of 10 comes at the end of my BnB where I'm still in recovery. What I'm not getting is why is everyone so up in arms about it? I get that some characters benefit and/or suffer from it more than others but what else is there?

What if you antiair someone but get punished cause your opponent breaks away? Its just a dumb mechanic and you cant just change your combo on the fly in every situation. Yeah you can just not continue doing your AA combo in fear of getting punished but thats just stupid.

 

[DarkSado]

What if you antiair someone but get punished cause your opponent breaks away? Its just a dumb mechanic and you cant just change your combo on the fly in every situation. Yeah you can just not continue doing your AA combo in fear of getting punished but thats just stupid.
[/QUOTE/]
Thank someone gets its.

 

[GeoffBedlam]

What if you antiair someone but get punished cause your opponent breaks away? Its just a dumb mechanic and you cant just change your combo on the fly in every situation. Yeah you can just not continue doing your AA combo in fear of getting punished but thats just stupid.

Okay, so the only thing people hate about Breakaway is being punished?

 

[DarkSado]

Okay, so the only thing people hate about Breakaway is being punished?

 

[Metin]

You can punish;

• Skarlet's bf4 and db4
• Erron Black's Slide
• Sub-Zero's Slide
• Scorpion's Spear
• Cetrion's Geyser

by using the breakaway at the right time. i am also sure there is more moves that can be punished like this. Lao's spin for example. The Question that Sonic mentioned; is it fair or not? To me using the right combo ender shouldn't be punished that hard and players shouldn't be worried about that but most of us also thinking breakaway is pretty dumb and useless mechanic. i am trying to understand the devs, maybe breakaway was designed to punish certain moves like that, if so why it doesn't work on every character? This absolutely makes this point "not fair" and Sonic is right.

 

[GeoffBedlam]

Cool, just be a smartarse and not answer the questions. Helps me understand your point of view way better.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Okay, so the only thing people hate about Breakaway is being punished?

why do you even to have breakaway in first place?

 

[ABACABB]

also make hop attacks ignore low pokes and stuff so we have a reason to use this mechanic

 

[NaughtySenpai]

also make hop attacks ignore low pokes and stuff so we have a reason to use this mechanic

Short hop is already pretty good, dunno why people complain about it. Most characters lack an unreactable overhead and while short hop is still reactable, it can be used to set up a throw or low starter on oki.

 

[Wigy]

To play devil's advocate, is breakaway really as bad as people claim? Obviously, scenarios for which you get punished for trying to do combos are unacceptable. However, the implication that breakaway benefits bad players is nonsensical. You have access to the same tool that your opponent does. Breakaway favors a player no more than flawless blocking does. Another argument is that in previous Mortal Kombat games the top tier characters took advantage of combo breakers on a consistent basis because they built meter quickly. The option has been universalized in Mortal Kombat 11 so that the whole roster can properly exploit it.

On the point of being universal.

Some characters have no access to decent unbreakable damage and basically all the top tier outside of cetrion do.

It makes optimal combos extremely dangerous for some characters, shao Khan gets crucified on hit if he catches someone jumping with like half his strings.

Obviously you're playing devil's advocate but just addressing that point. It's not a good base mechanic as it's one of these things thats situational and character specific so hard to really balance with insight. There is a direct relation to characters that are less hindered by rollout and the tier list. Correlation isn't causation but it's a big factor I think.

 

[M2Dave]

I think you're minimizing this issue with breakways, like the fact that they are character specific is the biggest reason why they are unfair and problematic. Many characters have no fucking dmg without juggling while others can flat out destroy you without juggling you once, how is that okay?

Some characters have no access to decent unbreakable damage and basically all the top tier outside of cetrion do.

Projectiles in combos were unbreakable in Mortal Kombat 9 and nobody ever complained. Freddy's spikes, for example, were unbreakable. As was Kenshi's spirit charge, which Pig used splendidly to establish space. Uppercuts were also unbreakable in some of the old 3D games.

Again, certain characters are better at exploiting certain gameplay elements than others. I have no idea why this concept is new in 2020.

 

[BRAZILIAN SHEEP]

He is right in my view. A few tweaks and this game could be way better competitively.
Breakaway and fatal blows are the priority, but some few changes will prove even more: Correct some hitboxes, add good anti airs for everybody, adjust the frame data and balance some characters that cant do anything and ones that have too many options, like my main liu kang
Talking about liu kang for ex....adjust the crushing blows too. Somr have more and better ones than others, and this is crucial in this game.

I dont understand people saying that this game is boring. How....just look at the last trailer....

 

[SwagDealer]

To begin with, in the game, poor movement dynamics means that for the sake of casual players it is easier for them to approach where they should be in the control zone, for example, if you take tekken and mk 10, these games offer the maximum concentration on rush down or futsis in the new part of 11 this is not there, the game is easy, it is made for noobs. Such mechanics can no longer be fixed; the only thing that saves this game is the perfect block panish and wavedesh (these are the only two elements of mechanics that make the game difficult; the complexity of the game ends; fighting games should not be excessively simple). A game worse than the MK10. 10th part is more colorful and colorful there is only one not a wealth block breaker it needed to be finalized. The game was made with support for casuals, but the game has training guides that prevented the game from being created at the level of mk x, but with training guides. For some reason, for some reason, the players didn’t say about this game in this game, a noob can take 60% of the game. My opinion was that such a game should be made such as the 9th part of a series of Mortal Kombat games with tag mode online in the 9th part there were problems with hit boxes in the game there was no trade in attacks since the mechanics are old

 

[Cashual]

I think the chance of NRS developing brand new mechanics to replace old ones is very unlikely, however if it's just a matter of tinkering numbers or other variables of existing mechanics, I think there's a good chance.

Given their vow to support this game longer than previous ones, i hope i'm wrong.

Did you play MKX(L) ? NRS made some pretty mechanical changes to that game. How stamina and breakers worked, armored launching moves basically being deleted as example.

Some of the changes suggested could definitely be implemented if they wanted.

 

[Cashual]

He needs to chill with the “you nrs community” comments like he’s above or not part of it

You watch his tier list video? Lol, he repeatedly told chat how bad we all are at the game. He says he begs players from other communities to come play because how bad even top players are. It was kind of funny and also kind of like...damn dude.

 

[NaughtySenpai]

To begin with, in the game, poor movement dynamics means that for the sake of casual players it is easier for them to approach where they should be in the control zone, for example, if you take tekken and mk 10, these games offer the maximum concentration on rush down or futsis in the new part of 11 this is not there, the game is easy, it is made for noobs. Such mechanics can no longer be fixed; the only thing that saves this game is the perfect block panish and wavedesh (these are the only two elements of mechanics that make the game difficult; the complexity of the game ends; fighting games should not be excessively simple). A game worse than the MK10. 10th part is more colorful and colorful there is only one not a wealth block breaker it needed to be finalized. The game was made with support for casuals, but the game has training guides that prevented the game from being created at the level of mk x, but with training guides. For some reason, for some reason, the players didn’t say about this game in this game, a noob can take 60% of the game. My opinion was that such a game should be made such as the 9th part of a series of Mortal Kombat games with tag mode online in the 9th part there were problems with hit boxes in the game there was no trade in attacks since the mechanics are old

U wot m8?

 

[Wigy]

Projectiles in combos were unbreakable in Mortal Kombat 9 and nobody ever complained. Freddy's spikes, for example, were unbreakable. As was Kenshi's spirit charge, which Pig used splendidly to establish space. Uppercuts were also unbreakable in some of the old 3D games.

Again, certain characters are better at exploiting certain gameplay elements than others. I have no idea why this concept is new in 2020.

Meter doesnt recharge for free in those games.

I know you can make a case for these characters having mad meterbuild but still had to be earned.

 

[Gooberking]

Pretty sure the main reason sonicfox adress this isn‘t because of gaps but because fb u2 allows you to steal turns with a full combo out of plus frames which also goes in the category „punishing the player for the right read“. I don‘t see it as too problematic because it‘s very meter intensive, scales a lot and can be punished hard but I can see it being very annoying on a high level.

My comment on gaps was that there isn't a good enough reward to study up on them for most players if there isn't a damage payout. If you can only U3 then you are spending 2 of your bars on something that will do light damage and get you a small amount of hitstun advantage. Outside of frame data changing gaps like Raiden's b31, there is no incentive to really invest in a mechanic like that unless you play at a level where a few advantage frames is so valuable that it's worth those resources.

It also lowers the fear reaction on aggression. If someone is conditionable, but being predictably aggressive, and FBU2 or two can install a lot of fear and force someone to actually think about what they are doing. I did skip around the video looking for the meat of it, but it seemed like the FBU2 comments were pretty off the cuff and not as detailed as the breakaway part. I didn't come away feeling like they were filing it under punishing for the right read, and I certainly would think otherwise.

When you pop someone with one, you are reading them and forcing them to think about what they can do. It's essentially punishing someone for your right read of their behavior. When I keep getting my gap blown up over and over, it's on me to mix it up. To condition them into thinking I will be stopping my turn at the gap or ending another way; which introduce another layer of feeling each other out. It's not the breaking down of a read, it's introducing deeper reads. Removing them seems unnecessary, lame, and if damage was the problem then you could always just scale harder.

I think you're minimizing this issue with breakways, like the fact that they are character specific is the biggest reason why they are unfair and problematic. Many characters have no fucking dmg without juggling while others can flat out destroy you without juggling you once, how is that okay?

Not defending breakaway here, but this is kind of looking at balance one dimensionally . Presumably, a character's balance should take into account the overall system and be better and worse a various things to dial them into some sense of balance. Not everything is a good dial for balance, but generally speaking the system as a whole should provide a lot of balancing dials for characters to get them where they need to be.

Bottling a mechanic on it's own is a fine part of a discussion but asserting broad conclusions based on them doesn't really mean enough. It allow for statements like "My character doesn't get all these easy Krushing Blows like Geras and LK. Why does Johnny have to be such a trash character?"

 

[Eji1700]

Like I said, a lot of the time it's on me for not reading the Breakaway that 9 times out of 10 comes at the end of my BnB where I'm still in recovery. What I'm not getting is why is everyone so up in arms about it? I get that some characters benefit and/or suffer from it more than others but what else is there?

It's not that it's on you, it's that it's even possible for it to be on you.

The entire flow of a figthing game is dealing with your opponents bullshit (rushdown, defense, zoning, whatever) until you get a hit, and then you get rewarded. Literally take a risk, get it right, get rewarded.

This puts a mini game in the "reward" that makes it less rewarding, because now you're STILL dealing with risk.

As with my list from before, this is usually handled as either brief one off that resets to neutral (basically a do over), sometimes with a double down option for the aggressor to REALLY call out the defender, so it's still rewarding the person who took all the risk getting past their bullshit to land the hit.

MK11 is one of the very few games that not only gives a do over option, but will actively punish the player who landed the hit thus totally skewing the risk reward.

What's extra annoying is that you and everyone else who plays half serious knows this is mostly just a dumb knowledge test. "Oh don't bother doing X move in a combo unless they're out of meter". That's not interesting or exciting, and neither is "properly reading it" and just getting some slight oki (compared to say a burst bait/counter breaker from GG/KI). It's just a non obvious rule for beginners that leads to super unhype play in practice.

On top of this they clearly haven't balanced the cast for it, as a lot of the people who are most hurt by this system have nothing to make up for it, while others get great damage either way and give up essentially nothing.

So yes, you can make the read, but why? It's not making the game better, they didn't make it interesting to do, and it doesn't let them balance in better ways, so what's the point of it?

 

[Juggs]

As I’ve said on numerous occasions, I don’t believe any “combo breaker” mechanic should exist in a fighting game. However, breakaways do exist in MK11. BUT, I don’t believe the breakaway mechanic in MK11 is that bad. It just needs adjustments. There’s 2 suggestions I would propose for breakaway’s. One is to increase the recovery frames after you perform a breakaway. The other suggestion would be to significantly decrease the rate of recharging of your defensive meter after you perform a breakaway.

I had a very long post typed out explaining in detail why I made these suggestions. But I feel like just making the suggestions is enough. I 100% agree that the attacker who puts you into a combo should never be punished for that because the defender broke out of the combo and recovered fast enough to punish you.

 

[dribirut]

You watch his tier list video? Lol, he repeatedly told chat how bad we all are at the game. He says he begs players from other communities to come play because how bad even top players are. It was kind of funny and also kind of like...damn dude.

Yea I saw that. Makes it more enjoyable to know that ninja has been waxing that ass lately

 

[dribirut]

Flawless block u2 are fine. One of the feeeew mechanics that actually take skill and execution. I never do them but when someone does them to me I just tip my hat. The only reason why sonic is bitcjing about him is because he hardly knows how to do them whole ninja has been bending him over while effectively using this mechanic.