Sonic Fox's criticism of Mortal Kombat 11

[MKF30]

Ermac and Sektor built meter pretty fast in mk 9 yet neither were top tier....alot of characters in mk 9 built meter fast thatbwerent top tier only. Tbh breakaways dont balance much in mk 11, example when low tiers get punished like raidens SC combos for example, only to be punished before he finishes his sc animation is not balanced to me nor fair

 

[ABACABB]

They need at least change breakaway input . Cant even count how many times some random ass SZ online did slide and I swear i crouch blocked in time but nope , got hit by it and wasted 2 bars on accidental breaker . Happened in many other situations also . that was just example . FBs being death on block would be great too . But better just remove all aromor from it . Such scrubby mechanic .

 

[Deleted member 5032]

They need at least change breakaway input . Cant even count how many times some random ass SZ online did slide and I swear i crouch blocked in time but nope , got hit by it and wasted 2 bars on accidental breaker . Happened in many other situations also . that was just example . FBs being death on block would be great too . But better just remove all aromor from it . Such scrubby mechanic .

What drives me crazy is getting caught in a 30-second Lao juggle, spamming breaker the whole time, and it won't come out. Then I get d2'd and somehow accidentally drop out immediately.

 

[Darth-Nero]

Yes please, add more risk to those scrubby ass mechanics.

 

[Rathalos]

You don't even need a replacement for breakaways.
The game barely has combos, no point in GG style burst or a combo breaker.

You could just straight up remove it and the world would be a better place.

 

[ABACABB]

What drives me crazy is getting caught in a 30-second Lao juggle, spamming breaker the whole time, and it won't come out. Then I get d2'd and somehow accidentally drop out immediately.

Lmao , yessssss xD Happened to me many times too . I was like wtf is my controller broken ?

 

[Marinjuana]

Some characters do 25% off of some BnB's and others easily get out 35%+. Getting rid of breakaway entirely will not be good for most of those characters. It's nice that low damage characters can exist and the mechanic helps that.

 

[Eji1700]

I agree 100% with SonicFox. Its a stupid mechanic and they should change it. Make it so that you always have an extra delayed wake up after using breakaway.

This is such a simple fix and it would do so much for the game that it's a major shame they'll probably never do it.

For reference, games that I can think of that have some way of getting out of a combo-
Guilty Gear - Burst
Killer Instinct - Combo Breaker
Rising Thunder - Kinetic Deflect
Samurai Showdown V Special - Rage Explosion
Tatsunoko vs Capcom - (i forget what it's called, but it's basically burst)
and MK9/X breakers

There's a LOT in common among these systems. The two most important in my eyes are:

1. If you predict an escape attempt you can absolutely fuck someone up (not just get a chance to), but that often comes with risk
2. A successful escape returns the game to near neutral.

MK 11 has a slightly interesting idea in that grounded combo's can't be broken, but that's basically the only good thing about the system. A correct read on a break is possible but frankly extremely boring. More baffling is still the ability to actually punish a combo with a break. In practice at high levels that doesn't happen a ton, but that's because it's constantly passively affecting what people do so that it doesn't happen, and the fact its even possible in the first place is absurd.

Forcing a longer delay on a breakaway would actually put some serious risk into it and eliminate the "lol you touched me so I get to combo you" outcomes and maybe get some slower startup moves more use on a proper breakaway read.

 

[M2Dave]

Breakaway is more inherently flawed than breaker was before. The core issue with breakers in 9/X was a symptom of the overall meter system, not so much breakers themselves. At their core, breakers were a desperate defensive play to interrupt the opponent's offense and reset neutral. There was no real mind game involved between the players. Offensive player got damage in and forced the opponent to lose their meter, thus giving them a potential advantage at the cost of losing their combo. Defensive player lost their meter, but also avoided damage and forced everything back to neutral to give themselves a chance again.

Breakaways, however, are a forced mind game on both players' part for EVERY launching combo. The defensive player is granted a tool that potentially gives them the ability to punish their opponent despite said defensive player making a mistake. That's asinine design and punishes players for succeeding. As Sonic said, that shit is unacceptable. This creates a disparity in the cast for combo extenders / enders as some characters who have long whiff recovery specials in their BnBs that can be punished for attempting to combo with while others have quick whiff recovery specials that aren't punishable in their BnBs (see: Scorpion spear vs. Geras choke). In addition, breakaways are launch-only combo breakers thus forcing a disparity in potential damage between the cast as those with great non-launching combos have access to consistent unbreakable damage. So breakaways give a defensive tool that can result in punishing players' success, forces a power rift in BnB specials for said potential punishment for succeeding, and forces a power rift in launch vs. non-launch combo potential.

Bonus kicker: breaker would have been perfectly fine in MK11 with auto-regen defensive meter because it wouldn't have had that same meter building disparity issue. No meter disparity, no launch vs. non-launch disparity -- breaker would have been a perfect defensive tool in the context of MK11.

You are mostly addressing a point that I never argued. I agree that scenarios for which you get punished for trying to do combos are not acceptable. Sonic Fox lists Cetrion as an example, but honestly how many times does a player like Dragon get punished because of breakaways? Rarely. The best players understand when to adjust their combos.

You can also argue that combo breakers are superior to breakaways, at least in some aspects.

1. Combo breakers can be used to escape grounded combos.
2. Combo breakers reset the neutral game whereas breakaways usually favor the offensive player.
3. If my memory serves me correctly, combo breakers cannot be "punished", but breakaways take reduced damage during armor.

I am also aware that certain characters ignore breakaways while certain others are more susceptible to them. This issue is inevitable in fighting games.

The reality is that the breakaway problem has been massively exacerbated. Nobody is placing top 8 at Koloseum because they are fraudulently breaking away from combos, but I guess many people have convinced themselves that this is so.

 

[dribirut]

To play devil's advocate, is breakaway really as bad as people claim? Obviously, scenarios for which you get punished for trying to do combos are unacceptable. However, the implication that breakaway benefits bad players is nonsensical. You have access to the same tool that your opponent does. Breakaway favors a player no more than flawless blocking does. Another argument is that in previous Mortal Kombat games the top tier characters took advantage of combo breakers on a consistent basis because they built meter quickly. The option has been universalized in Mortal Kombat 11 so that the whole roster can properly exploit it.

I actually don’t mind it. Although it can be annoying for some characters, I see it as an added depth and variety to the characters which is already severely lacking in the game. Some characters have good unbreakable damage. Some don’t. Some even run the risk of being punished. Adding more counter break away moves like spawns would be a funner more interesting approach.

 

[dribirut]

I think at its core, the real issue is the new regenerating meter mechanic.

 

[dribirut]

It used to be a bigger risk to break away when you knew the meter was actually gone and were either going to have to take more damage or go on the offensive make the opp block to get it back

 

[Gooberking]

Totally setting aside the balance aspects of Flawless block into U2, it's the games only real "fun" mechanic. In a game that is heavily criticized for being boring and bland, it's about the only thing that shakes stuff up and adds a little spice to thing.

It's fun to do, and gives you a reason to study gaps and something to fear. If you are a player that is so good that you look at spending two bars, and possibly taking armor damage just to take frame advantage and see that as a good deal, then I guess it's great to be a part of that club. But it takes a mechanic for high level players and turns it into one for elite only players while muting the game even further for everyone else. You presumably would still be able to punish gaps that make things negative on FB, but you'd lose out on cool stuff like FB'ing jump ins which isn't a bad way to approach anti-airs.

I really enjoy playing the game as it is. I'm not someone that finds it bland at all, but I do really like having that one crazy thing that keeps you on your toes. When someone turns the game around with one, that's fun to see. When someone shows you that they will make you pay for just tossing out that gapped string that forces you to think and adjust. I'm very against adding a bunch of crazy BS to the game to just "jazz it up", but I'm also not super down with dialing it farther the other way.

 

[DarkSado]

The mechanic in this game what hold this game back I been saying a while back, even in the beta breakaway are trash and need a rework or get remove.

 

[Metzos]

Invincibility on back dashes needs to happen imo.

Better AA options for sure.

Bring back the old breakaway system (been saying this since day 1 but well, i m not SF).

FB on whiff or block, thats it you lost it. Either that or what fox said. Make it a billion on block and no push back. But i still believe in the end, fb on block or whiff must be gone for good.

Fix the accidental breakaway issues with d+R2, that shit is stupid af.

Nerf the dmg scaling off combos started by d2 KB.

Nerf the dmg on KB throws (that includes combo starting throws as well).

Buff Shao Kahn.

 

[NaughtySenpai]

You are mostly addressing a point that I never argued. I agree that scenarios for which you get punished for trying to do combos are not acceptable. Sonic Fox lists Cetrion as an example, but honestly how many times does a player like Dragon get punished because of breakaways? Rarely. The best players understand when to adjust their combos.

You can also argue that combo breakers are superior to breakaways, at least in some aspects.

1. Combo breakers can be used to escape grounded combos.
2. Combo breakers reset the neutral game whereas breakaways usually favor the offensive player.
3. If my memory serves me correctly, combo breakers cannot be "punished", but breakaways take reduced damage during armor.

I am also aware that certain characters ignore breakaways while certain others are more susceptible to them. This issue is inevitable in fighting games.

The reality is that the breakaway problem has been massively exacerbated. Nobody is placing top 8 at Koloseum because they are fraudulently breaking away from combos, but I guess many people have convinced themselves that this is so.

That's not the point that people are making. People make the point that it's stupid and unfun. People didn't suddenly win in Smash Brawl because there was the dumb slipping mechanic punishing you for no reason, but that doesn't make it a good mechanic.

You just should never get punished for landing a hit into a combo in a fighting game. NEVER!

 

[NaughtySenpai]

Totally setting aside the balance aspects of Flawless block into U2, it's the games only real "fun" mechanic. In a game that is heavily criticized for being boring and bland, it's about the only thing that shakes stuff up and adds a little spice to thing.

It's fun to do, and gives you a reason to study gaps and something to fear. If you are a player that is so good that you look at spending two bars, and possibly taking armor damage just to take frame advantage and see that as a good deal, then I guess it's great to be a part of that club. But it takes a mechanic for high level players and turns it into one for elite only players while muting the game even further for everyone else. You presumably would still be able to punish gaps that make things negative on FB, but you'd lose out on cool stuff like FB'ing jump ins which isn't a bad way to approach anti-airs.

I really enjoy playing the game as it is. I'm not someone that finds it bland at all, but I do really like having that one crazy thing that keeps you on your toes. When someone turns the game around with one, that's fun to see. When someone shows you that they will make you pay for just tossing out that gapped string that forces you to think and adjust. I'm very against adding a bunch of crazy BS to the game to just "jazz it up", but I'm also not super down with dialing it farther the other way.

Totally looking forward to getting u2 removed so Jax can f2,1+2 all day. I hate that shit and fbs are fun to do.

 

[Darth-Nero]

I am also aware that certain characters ignore breakaways while certain others are more susceptible to them. This issue is inevitable in fighting games.

The reality is that the breakaway problem has been massively exacerbated. Nobody is placing top 8 at Koloseum because they are fraudulently breaking away from combos, but I guess many people have convinced themselves that this is so.

I think you're minimizing this issue with breakways, like the fact that they are character specific is the biggest reason why they are unfair and problematic. Many characters have no fucking dmg without juggling while others can flat out destroy you without juggling you once, how is that okay?

 

[Jowabunga]

I honestly think the current fatal blow implementation is an even more egregious issue than breakaway is,

 

[SonBearku]

I honestly think the current fatal blow implementation is an even more egregious issue than breakaway is,

Completely agreed

 

[Eddy Wang]

I think at its core, the real issue is the new regenerating meter mechanic.

the worst part about the meter mechanic it's that it fills up even when the round ends
No attacks outside of break away takes in consideration how the meter fills up, so it's just terrible in general.
I'm going to use moves that are insanely powerful with meter, but it's going to refill as fast as my most pesky amplified move.

 

[GeoffBedlam]

I think I'm in the minority of people that don't really mind Breakaway. Sure, I'd prefer Breakers to come back because they're neutral and all that but as a Kotal and Cetrion main, if someone breaks out of my BnB and I get punished for it (which is, like, 7/8 times out of 10 with Kotal lol) then that's on ME. I like having to take into account that they may Breakaway and like the idea of catching them out on that and meaty-ing them for their effort. That all said though, again, I would still rather Breakers come back and just reset the neutral. That way it's exactly that, neutral.

Fatal Blows already are death on block, it's just the pushback makes them nearly unpunishable. You'd think the top 1% of NRS players would just Flawless Block them to take away the pushback entirely but what would I know, I'm just one of the 99% that are trash lol. EDIT: I LITERALLY JUST DID THIS ON MY 2ND ATTEMPT IN PRACTICE. Some Fatal Blows would probably be too fast to react to but, still, if you read it it really shouldn't be a problem.

Also, u2's are fine. Seeing someone u2 a gap in a string or use to punish something that isn't usually punishable (Scorpion's f34 for example) is HYPE AF.

 

[Blewdew]

Totally setting aside the balance aspects of Flawless block into U2, it's the games only real "fun" mechanic. In a game that is heavily criticized for being boring and bland, it's about the only thing that shakes stuff up and adds a little spice to thing.

It's fun to do, and gives you a reason to study gaps and something to fear. If you are a player that is so good that you look at spending two bars, and possibly taking armor damage just to take frame advantage and see that as a good deal, then I guess it's great to be a part of that club. But it takes a mechanic for high level players and turns it into one for elite only players while muting the game even further for everyone else. You presumably would still be able to punish gaps that make things negative on FB, but you'd lose out on cool stuff like FB'ing jump ins which isn't a bad way to approach anti-airs.

I really enjoy playing the game as it is. I'm not someone that finds it bland at all, but I do really like having that one crazy thing that keeps you on your toes. When someone turns the game around with one, that's fun to see. When someone shows you that they will make you pay for just tossing out that gapped string that forces you to think and adjust. I'm very against adding a bunch of crazy BS to the game to just "jazz it up", but I'm also not super down with dialing it farther the other way.

Pretty sure the main reason sonicfox adress this isn‘t because of gaps but because fb u2 allows you to steal turns with a full combo out of plus frames which also goes in the category „punishing the player for the right read“. I don‘t see it as too problematic because it‘s very meter intensive, scales a lot and can be punished hard but I can see it being very annoying on a high level.

 

[Eji1700]

I think I'm in the minority of people that don't really mind Breakaway. Sure, I'd prefer Breakers to come back because they're neutral and all that but as a Kotal and Cetrion main, if someone breaks out of my BnB and I get punished for it (which is, like, 7/8 times out of 10 with Kotal lol) then that's on ME.

See i tried to come around on this, but it sure as hell doesn't feel like this was something they were balancing for. There's so many characters that just don't have to deal with this, and many characters that a just lower on the tier list because of it.

It doesn't feel like someone said "well they're getting ass damage most of the time because their opponent could break and punish, so we gave them X to make up for it". Cetrion is the exeception to the point it feels like an accident.

 

[kabelfritz]

and u+2 ought to be disabled after flawless blocking.

not gonna bash, but flawless blocking is considered the only weaker aspect of sonics gameplay. this change would surely benefit him.