Strategy "Shazam!" -- Captain Marvel General Discussion Thread

[HungryforPasta]

The CPU can do wakeup attacks before an actual player can yes.

I don't think you confirmed either of the two interpretations I had for what you said earlier...
Are you saying that the CPU dummy wakes up at a different speed than a human player?

is there an example you can show which will prove this?
Match-up & Shazam teleport aside, I think this is interesting and EXTREMELY important!
The validity large amount of lab work via training dummy is potentially at risk as many of my meaty set-ups have been tested this way.

 

[Heroic_Legacy]

Look it up, there's a thread and yt video about it.

 

[HungryforPasta]

there's a thread and yt video about it.

Typed everything I thought was common sense into the search engine here+youtube+google and haven't been able to find anything; would you guide me plz!

and for the record, if this turns out to be true and I nor any of my injustice playing friends haven't heard about it... That sucks. Something this important to take note of during training mode, I would think would be front page worthy for days!!

If true; A bug no doubt, could it have been fixed in the patch?

 

[SmokeMaster]

I have no idea what this statement is supposed to mean exaclty!
are you saying that reversals have different start up if the computer is doing it than if a person is doing it?

If so, that is horrible!


Or are you saying that a computer can more consistently do a reversal than a person?
if so then... ya I hope so.

The training mode dummy IS set to do a wake up reversal; I damn well hope that it will reversal everytime.
But that's so far out the way from what's relevant that I don't see why you brought that up...

you saying that just because it's "difficult" to do a wake up reversal (which is your opinion) that it warrants the telephotos characteristics?

plz think through what you're trying to say
I'm sure you didn't mean this and were meaning to say something else.

What I'm saying is that the window of opportunity is a little easier then you pressumed. You can't do meaty attack into shoulder rush anymore due to his Teleport buff. This was one reason why Doomsday owned Shazam pre-patch. Once Doomsday activated trait, Shazam was shit out of luck. You damn near got free mixups on Shazam all day. All we could do was block and tech accordingly and pray for an opening once trait wore off. Now with the Buffs/Debuffs of the new patch the pendulum has swung in our favor. Shazam now has a viable way off getting out of mixup pressure from Doomsday even with trait activated. You can't get that vortex seeminglessly for free anymore.

Which brings me to my next point. If you don't have trait activated, you should never attempt to do his ground mixups. Wakeup Teleport is nothing compared to wakeup "Herculean Might" or "Atlas Torpedo". Both wake ups have "invincibility" on startup. HM is the worse of the two for Doomsday. Even if you do any meaty attacks(crouching included) on Shazam's wakeup, it will still grab you.

What everyone else has said in here is essentially the only options you have for Doomsday in reguards to Shazam's wakeup. As for what I said, if you can't see the "relavance" in recovery frames on wakeup then I'm afraid the Shazam matchup is the least of your worries. You can take this advice to help you with the matchup or leave it, but I'm sure some Doomsday main will find this info to come in quite handy.

 

[HungryforPasta]

response

I have absolutely NO idea what the part of my previous text which you Bolded has anything to do with your three paragraph response...

You pointing out the strength of Shazam's reversals in response to Doomsday pressure is good but completely non sequitur as to what the conversation is about. I never meant to insinuate any interest or intention at all in talking about the match-up as a whole.

Notice that we're in the "general discussion" thread and not the "match-up thread".

I'm here to discuss what I think is a problem; that Shazam's teleport virtually (for the most part) untouchable!
The invincibility+the phantom hitbox+the fast recovery make this incredibly hard to counter... (or am I missing something?)
Whether or not my focus on countering his teleport is relevant to the match-up is besides the point!!!

As far as I can see, the teleport doesn't have a weakness, so I'm trying to see if anybody can hopefully shed some light on the situation.




And BTW, not that it matters but since you brought it up.

You can't do meaty attack into shoulder rush anymore due to his Teleport buff

False

Aris made that video showcasing how meaty attacks are still able to make "contact" with invincible reversal hitbox and are from there able to cancel into specials/armored f/b3/super.

It is possible to meaty jab and cancel into venom against Shazam's teleport
the only problem is that he recovers to damn fast for it to punish!!! LOL

 

[SmokeMaster]

*response*

The phantom hitbox and fast recovery were there pre-patch, so I don't now what you are trying to debate. Do you think they need to get rid of the phantom hitbox? That's not going to solve your issue because of the fast recovery of Eluding Mercury Storm. If you take out the phantom hitbox then other matchup's for Shazam will increasingly be against his favor. If you take out the fast recovery then the move becomes utterly useless. If you take out the invinciblity then we are back to square one with Doomsday in favor over Shazam. Let me know what you are trying to debate here?

 

[EGP Wonder_Chef]

I played a Doomsday at WNF that had this exact problem. Afterwards he came up to me and asked me how he was supposed to punish teleport and I had to say "I dunno"

That phantom hitbox thing is kind of a big issue for a lot of characters I think.

 

[SmokeMaster]

I just need to know what's the use of a evasive move if it doesn't evade. If you take out the phantom hitbox all Doomsday's Tackle will do is go right through Shazam's Teleport. If you take out phantom hitbox + fast recovery, you might as well use back dash because the move becomes useless at that point.

 

[Pterodactyl]

What is it i'm not getting about this character? Is there some mysterious tech or something that I don't get?

 

[HungryforPasta]

Let me know what you are trying to debate here?

Debate? what are you talking about...
alright for the third time, I'm here because of this; I think the teleport is too strong, why? because my character can't seem to do jack against it.

If you feel fine and are Ok with this.
If you feel that the teleport is fine the way it is, fair enough.
I'm not interested in having that debate with anybody.

All I'm after is if somebody here knows of some way to punish it that I'm not aware of.

 

[booivi]

The CPU can do wakeup attacks before an actual player can yes. There are some setups that work against another person's wakeup but not against a cpu's wakeup. Either way it doesn't change the fact that Doomsday still has problems punishing the teleport, and I really have no answer as to how to do it. It's why I think Shazam beats Doomsday pretty hard now with his teleport buff. We don't care about your knockdown game anymore.

What I can suggest is just let them teleport and hold your ground, don't let them get past you and out of the corner. And when they're in the corner, baiting a forward teleport and punishing is FAR easier than doing the same to a backwards teleport.

Wait shazam beats doomsday badly? can you explain why and how? I actually have trouble fighting bane and doomsday's here and there.

 

[HungryforPasta]

Would you guys like to analyze a particular match-up, you seem to understand something that I'm missing; much appreciated

http://testyourmight.com/threads/shazam-match-up-discussion.29217/page-3

 

[SmokeMaster]

@HungryforPasta and any other Doomday main that may have this problem with punishing wakeup teleport. First do not go by data in training mode to punish wakeup teleport for 2 reasons:

1. The CPU training dummy does all wakeup attacks faster then a human opponent can due to some sort of glitch in training mode.

2. When you set the CPU to do "Eluding Mercury Storm" that is exactly what they do and that teleport is extremely hard to punish on wakeup, but "Advancing Mercury Storm" can easily be punished on wakeup.

This is why I said to test with a human opponent because it is critical to Doomsday being able to punish the right type of teleport. The CPU has "godlike" execution and reaction time compared to the best human opponent. Everyone knows that. There is only 2 ways to punish wakeup teleport and for all general purposes when I say wakeup teleport I mean "Advancing Mercury Storm".

After you do an untechable knockdown with Doomsday(D3), you need to dash-in before they recover from their knockdown. This is critical to punishing wakeup teleport for when you dash-in you essentially just crossed up your opponent. Your opponent will buffer the motion for "Eluding Mercury Storm" upon wakeup. When they recover from a knockdown and do wakeup "Eluding Mercury Storm" it's instead going to be "Advancing Mercury Storm".

You then have two options:

1. Do ji+d3

2. Do Supernova(MB)

I tested both options and both of them work. For option #1 you'll need to do it deep for it to connect and for option #2 they cannot back-dash it if timed properly.

I hope this has helped if not then take Heroic_Legacy's advice and just hold your ground.

 

[HungryforPasta]

@HungryforPasta and any other Doomday main that may have this problem with punishing wakeup teleport. First do not go by data in training mode to punish wakeup teleport for 2 reasons:

1. The CPU training dummy does all wakeup attacks faster then a human opponent can due to some sort of glitch in training mode.

Again, would you please bring me up to date with this? I still haven't been able to find more information on this.
Much appreciated

 

[Heroic_Legacy]

 

[HungryforPasta]

WOW!
what a scandall that I haven't heard of this before hand?
was this on the front page of TYM? do they have a confirmed list as to which reversals are affected when performed by the AI? is it all of them?

Well I came to ask for help and walked away with something very very very interesting.
I'll have to doubt a great amount of lab work done hitherto thanks to this bug!
I'm happy to know of it now, thanks alot for sharing!

 

[Shawi]

HungryforPasta Okay. I took this to the lab and I think you are greatly over reacting.

1. The teleport can be punished, MID SCREEN, with EX shoulder. Delay the mb so the shoulder hits the invisible hitbox and then the mb part charges forward and hits shazam. Cannot block.

2. The teleport can be PUNISHED anywhere on screen with a MB supernova. It is VERY VERY VERY easy. You have a load of time to mb it. If you simply do the mb supernova as soon as you knock shazam down, you will hit him in the following state: (sorry about picture quality)



You can even delay it slightly after the knockdown and you will hit shazam in this state, where he is almost out of recovery.



There is no way, even if you delay it further, that shazam can not get hit by it. A dash would be stuffed and shazam wont have time to hit a b3 or f3.

 

[Heroic_Legacy]

This all assumes he does Eluding Mercury Storm...

 

[HungryforPasta]

1. The teleport can be punished, MID SCREEN, with EX shoulder. Delay the mb so the shoulder hits the invisible hitbox and then the mb part charges forward and hits shazam. Cannot block.

Did you watch the video that I posted? Perhaps it was too long and my rambling lost your attention.
Toward the end of the video I clearly show how MB venom works against this however did you notice that the third attempt didn't hit?

Basically: You're right, MB venom works!
but it I don't think it's as easy as you make it sound... make sure your AI is set to auto block.

The teleport can be PUNISHED anywhere on screen with a MB supernova. It is VERY VERY VERY easy. You have a load of time to mb it.

Are you putting the AI as DD and having him record a set up?
If so I don't think this is true at all. Iirc only a very precise supernova will stuff the post teleport dash but fine.
I'll reconsider and test one more time.

 

[HungryforPasta]

I'm sorry I can't resist anymore, I'll debate now.
This is just dumb and I'll tell you why.

The phantom hitbox and fast recovery were there pre-patch, so I don't now what you are trying to debate

What does this have to do with anything?

Do you think they need to get rid of the phantom hitbox? That's not going to solve your issue because of the fast recovery of Eluding Mercury Storm.

Really? can you not put 2 & 2 together?
It's the COMBINATION of the phantom hitbox HOLDING the opponent back AND stopping their preemptive attack AND the fast recovery that make this teleport what it is... very, very strong!

It has fast recovery but if it wasn't for the phantom hitbox that gets in the way, MAYBE preemptive horizontal moving attacks would have an easier time punishing! (call me crazy but sounds pretty fair!)

Or if you want you could leave the phantom hitbox and increase the recovery... it would probably yield the same result.
Leave the invincibility where it is now though, the invincibility I think makes sense!

If you take out the phantom hitbox then other matchup's for Shazam will increasingly be against his favor.

Ya no kidding!
It's a nerf, of course a nerf is going to have negative consequences in matchups, if it didn't then it wouldn't really be that much of nerf would it?

And here's the question!
Are you telling me that Shazam is so bad that he needs this?
that he deserves a teleport like this and would be too bad without it?
Cause if you are let me tell you something: If you got a character that is so bad that they merit having a teleport like this, then you know what? You got yourself a shitty character!

No character! I don't care who it is or what game it is should EVER have a teleport that is this powerful!
If the character sucks and arguably needs a teleport this safe to stay viable, then NRS need to rethink the character and buff it in ways to make it so that he wouldn't need it!



*huff* *puff*

 

[SmokeMaster]

I'm sorry I can't resist anymore, I'll debate now.
This is just dumb and I'll tell you why.



What does this have to do with anything?



Really? can you not put 2 & 2 together?
It's the COMBINATION of the phantom hitbox HOLDING the opponent back AND stopping their preemptive attack AND the fast recovery that make this teleport what it is... very, very strong!

It has fast recovery but if it wasn't for the phantom hitbox that gets in the way, MAYBE preemptive horizontal moving attacks would have an easier time punishing! (call me crazy but sounds pretty fair!)

Or if you want you could leave the phantom hitbox and increase the recovery... it would probably yield the same result.
Leave the invincibility where it is now though, the invincibility I think makes sense!





Ya no kidding!
It's a nerf, of course a nerf is going to have negative consequences in matchups, if it didn't then it wouldn't really be that much of nerf would it?

And here's the question!
Are you telling me that Shazam is so bad that he needs this?
that he deserves a teleport like this and would be too bad without it?
Cause if you are let me tell you something: If you got a character that is so bad that they merit having a teleport like this, then you know what? You got yourself a shitty character!

No character! I don't care who it is or what game it is should EVER have a teleport that is this powerful!
If the character sucks and arguably needs a teleport this safe to stay viable, then NRS need to rethink the character and buff it in ways to make it so that he wouldn't need it!



*huff* *puff*

You are intitled to your opinion

 

[HungryforPasta]

You are intitled to your opinion

... Ya I know I'm beating a dead horse now.

It just bugs me that something that's so blatently obvious and second nature to me isn't so to others.
It boggles my mind that people can look at this and feel nothing.

 

[Heroic_Legacy]

Yeah no the teleport is straight dumb but before the teleport buff he had 0 wakeup options. I agree the teleport needs an increase in recovery judgin the wakeup version, but being fair if it had increased recovery I'd never use it outside of wakeup, itd be a dead move.

 

[SmokeMaster]

... Ya I know I'm beating a dead horse now.

It just bugs me that something that's so blatently obvious and second nature to me isn't so to others.
It boggles my mind that people can look at this and feel nothing.

Tbh it wouldn't be an issue hadn't he got the invincibility buff on startup for wakeup teleport. No one was raising alarms then because you'd be a fool to use it on wakeup. Now that it has become more difficult for Doomsday it's now a problem. If you adjust any of the attributes that Shazam has on his Teleport as it stands right now then we are right back at square one. A seemingly useless move on wakeup. All because you can't "conveniently" punish it. Because technically your character can punish it it's just not up to your standards.

 

[HungryforPasta]

Tbh it wouldn't be an issue hadn't he got the invincibility buff on startup for wakeup teleport. No one was raising alarms then because you'd be a fool to use it on wakeup. Now that it has become more difficult for Doomsday it's now a problem.

WHAT!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

You little fool!
How dare you say that I'd be THAT shallow that my complaints are based solely my inability to win!!!!
This is a matter of principle not my petty win streak!

Let me start from the beginning and make something clear so even you can't misconstrue it!
I agree with you 100% regarding shazam's teleport pre patch, it's lack of invincibility made it pretty lack luster! I'm Glad it has invincible now! It's a great option for any character to have, invincible teleports are fine by me I never had a problem with that to begin with!

If you adjust any of the attributes that Shazam has on his Teleport as it stands right now then we are right back at square one

*facepalm*

It's invincible on wake up! You understand that, so why do you claim such ridiculous nonsense!
Do I have to spell it out for you again?!?!?!
EVEN IF! they were to remove the phantom hitbox and increase the recovery 5X over (which isn't what i'm advocating) it would still be an improvement over prepatch...

because... IT"S INVINCIBLY ON WAKE UP! he can escape cross ups, he can escape meaties... only a colossal addition in recovery can make this fact irrelevant.

what is so hard to understand about this?
please try your best to understand what's being said before commenting again.