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L

Lum@na

Noob
Yeah, that is why mildlying tweaking his TP is what I said. His f3 stagger pressure is legit and he can punish virtually any bad decision with a tracking mid launcher TP... If you make his TP more fair ie high on amp, you can leave room to add strength to his strings without everyone feeling like he is oppressive. It adds some vulnerability to his best move without changing his BnBs or overall play pattern.

I know there are more oppressive characters out there but Scorpion is the most accessible top tier pick and still probably warrants gentle nerfs to reach a more ideal state. Geras, Erron, Sonya all need a bigger whack.
 
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Matix218

Matix218

Get over here!
Lum@na said:
Yeah, that is why that is what I said. His f3 stagger pressure is legit and he can punish virtually any bad decision with a tracking mid launcher TP... If you make his TP more fair ie high on amp, you can leave room to add strength to his strings without everyone feeling like he is oppressive. It adds some vulnerability to his best move without changing his BnBs or overall play pattern.

I know there are more oppressive characters out there but Scorpion is the most accessible top tier pick and still probably warrants gentle nerfs to reach a more ideal state. Geras, Erron, Sonya all need a bigger whack.
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I would not change a thing on scorpion until it is proven that his current design is a problem. I have seen exactly zero scorpions running train on people in tournament so far. I know we have CB coming up but if he is not making a ton of noise there and at EVO I dont see how you could reasonbly ask for nerfs. Other than being able to mb teleport on block, I hope they remove it just so I can stop reading complaints about it and because it does nothing for the character anyway imo
 
H

Hor_PeT

Kombatant
Lum@na said:
Yeah, that is why that is what I said. His f3 stagger pressure is legit and he can punish virtually any bad decision with a tracking mid launcher TP... If you make his TP more fair ie high on amp, you can leave room to add strength to his strings without everyone feeling like he is oppressive. It adds some vulnerability to his best move without changing his BnBs or overall play pattern.

I know there are more oppressive characters out there but Scorpion is the most accessible top tier pick and still probably warrants gentle nerfs to reach a more ideal state. Geras, Erron, Sonya all need a bigger whack.
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Most accessible?
I could play Geras in 5 minutes pretty well lol - not high level though haha of course.
Erron Black took few hours practice in total mostly figuring out the strings and cancels.
Sonya mid screen Bnb was 5 minutes max. For medium level it is good enough.

Then with all of them I could play at least a level I could play with Scorpion at first. Of course more play gives more skill level but I can not say Scorpion was the easiest pick even on my casual medium level.

If you mean teleport spamming as most accessible I can not agree more but that should not be the primary reason to nerf him.

If you change the hitbox of the teleport it might not be able to whiff punish properly. And you can also delete Reborn variation as in reaction you just crouch and punish both cancel and normal teleport.
 
NaughtySenpai

NaughtySenpai

Kombatant
OutworldKeith said:
Since Spear’s recovery was buffed from the beta he isn’t weak to breakaway. You’re absolutely correct.

I’ve only been punished by breakaway when I used Death Spin in combo lol.
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I usually bait breakaway with f3,11 or f3, 21 on the juggle. You can hit confirm both strings in that scenario and if they breakaway you got them lying in front of you with tons of advantage.
You're pretty vulnerable if you go for f3,f32,bf2 or f3,4,bf1 which can open you up for a full combo punish if they break away at a good time.



By the way:
Am I crazy or is the 212+4 portion of db3 amp,f3,212+4 super hard to link on female characters? Was thinking about doing a big Scorpion combo guide for Youtube and went to the lab with D'Vorah and while the link is certainly hard, it seemed infinitely harder on her than on a Scorpion dummy, to the point I had to add a dash after the hellport amp to get it more consistently.
 
L

Lum@na

Noob
Hor_PeT said:
Most accessible?
I could play Geras in 5 minutes pretty well lol - not high level though haha of course.
Erron Black took few hours practice in total mostly figuring out the strings and cancels.
Sonya mid screen Bnb was 5 minutes max. For medium level it is good enough.

Then with all of them I could play at least a level I could play with Scorpion at first. Of course more play gives more skill level but I can not say Scorpion was the easiest pick even on my casual medium level.

If you mean teleport spamming as most accessible I can not agree more but that should not be the primary reason to nerf him.

If you change the hitbox of the teleport it might not be able to whiff punish properly. And you can also delete Reborn variation as in reaction you just crouch and punish both cancel and normal teleport.
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You don't need to change the hitbox to make it a high. That isn't the key feature. The visuals are unrelated to it's hit data as are the actual hitbox, ie Cassie's low shot is a mid because there is a basically a toggle in the code that says it's a mid. It is as low or lower visually and hitbox wise as many lows. Literally changing a mid to a high can be done with minimal effort. Look at Liu Kangs b2
 
H

Hor_PeT

Kombatant
Lum@na said:
You don't need to change the hitbox to make it a high. That isn't the key feature. The visuals are unrelated to it's hit data as are the actual hitbox, ie Cassie's low shot is a mid because there is a basically a toggle in the code that says it's a mid. It is as low or lower visually and hitbox wise as many lows. Literally changing a mid to a high can be done with minimal effort. Look at Liu Kangs b2
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I do not think making it high will not affect his hitbox as as a HIGH it will e.g. not hit a crouching or low enough opponent - so hitbox is changed.
So what is the point of making it high? To not hit mid-low area.

But I am not an expert on this. And do not want to argue more. I will play what NRS will gave me. If it is a high I will play with that version of Scorpion - as I do not have other choice lol.
I just leave the thinking about hitbox to NRS.
 
L

Lum@na

Noob
Hor_PeT said:
I do not think making it high will not affect his hitbox as as a HIGH it will e.g. not hit a crouching or low enough opponent - so hitbox is changed.
So what is the point of making it high? To not hit mid-low area.

But I am not an expert on this. And do not want to argue more. I will play what NRS will gave me. If it is a high I will play with that version of Scorpion - as I do not have other choice lol.
I just leave the thinking about hitbox to NRS.
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It is literally introductory programming. It would be the stupidest thing in the world to make the game visually determine where some should be blocked. The proof that this isn't true is that Liu Kangs b2 went from an overhead to a high with no change in frame data or visuals. Even basic self education would make it apparent the two are completely unrelated.

There are so many highs that look like they should connect with a ducking opponent but the game won't let the hitbox trigger if the opponent is crouching. A high just has a check that the opponent overlaps with the hitbox and isn't crouching. Doesn't matter the hitbox. If they are crouching, it won't register. Done. Again. Just look at LKs b2
 
jozuvloke

jozuvloke

Apprentice
Dwn 3 into grab is almost guaranteed. I'm sure you can dwn 3 2 or 3 times into that fwd 3 as well. Either that or other characters need there dwn 1 and 3 buffed. Shave a frame & add a frame...
 
Juggs

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Been working on what to do after a blocked D1, basically, the poke war. Tested on Geras since he has a 6f D1. After a blocked D1 it’s your turn, but not for long. Scorpion can only reverse D1 or D3 poke after a blocked D1. No other normal or string can hit them if they do D1 on block into another D1. If the do D1 and it hits, you’re forced to block the follow up. Usually they will attempt a jail, which you just have to block. Although, most jail attempts are the same per character. Meaning, that’s either the only jail their character has, or they only one good/only on they use. So, if you know all the jailing starters after being hit by a D1, you can get good at the flawless block timing on the first attack.

Now, after a blocked D1, Scorpion does have options other than counter poke D1/D3. Even against a 6f D1, after a blocked D1, you can walk back out of a second D1 attempt and whiff punish. Of course, this is under the assumption they do D1 into D1. You can also teleport after a blocked D1 and not get hit by a followup. It doesn’t make sense frame wise but it works. No other special move will work, only teleport (and the cancel for Reborn will work as well).

Knowing your options after either getting hit by a D1 or blocking a D1 is a very important thing you need to know. The situation happens a lot since D1’s are so good.

Don’t let people mash D1’s on you and get away with it. Successive D1’s can be counterpoked (worst option), they can be walked back and whiff punished, and they can be reversal teleported. Again, to be clear, this is in the “D1 on block into another D1” situation.

I’ll work on other situations on getting out of pressure close up. This is all I have right now and I’m falling asleep. This weekend gonna finally be able to hit the lab super hard and really help level up myself and the Scorpion community!
 
H

Hor_PeT

Kombatant
Juggs said:
Been working on what to do after a blocked D1, basically, the poke war. Tested on Geras since he has a 6f D1. After a blocked D1 it’s your turn, but not for long. Scorpion can only reverse D1 or D3 poke after a blocked D1. No other normal or string can hit them if they do D1 on block into another D1. If the do D1 and it hits, you’re forced to block the follow up. Usually they will attempt a jail, which you just have to block. Although, most jail attempts are the same per character. Meaning, that’s either the only jail their character has, or they only one good/only on they use. So, if you know all the jailing starters after being hit by a D1, you can get good at the flawless block timing on the first attack.

Now, after a blocked D1, Scorpion does have options other than counter poke D1/D3. Even against a 6f D1, after a blocked D1, you can walk back out of a second D1 attempt and whiff punish. Of course, this is under the assumption they do D1 into D1. You can also teleport after a blocked D1 and not get hit by a followup. It doesn’t make sense frame wise but it works. No other special move will work, only teleport (and the cancel for Reborn will work as well).

Knowing your options after either getting hit by a D1 or blocking a D1 is a very important thing you need to know. The situation happens a lot since D1’s are so good.

Don’t let people mash D1’s on you and get away with it. Successive D1’s can be counterpoked (worst option), they can be walked back and whiff punished, and they can be reversal teleported. Again, to be clear, this is in the “D1 on block into another D1” situation.

I’ll work on other situations on getting out of pressure close up. This is all I have right now and I’m falling asleep. This weekend gonna finally be able to hit the lab super hard and really help level up myself and the Scorpion community!
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I appreciate the hard work. :)
Btw poke war depends on the opponent. If he is a D1 masher and willing to D1 after blocked D1 yes you can poke back and jail into anything you want (e.g. F3 or B1 is cool as it can full combo the masher even on hit - if he respects you can get a throw).

I did not lab the walk back after blocked D1 as my friend mashes D3-D4 as well to beat me after D1 (sequence : D1, D4 - I do it as well sometimes probably lol) so against him the counter poke is working.

When you have the counterpoke respect you can even throw after a blocked D1 but as Scorpion it is really difficult to get.

However if you play against a 9F Mid opponent and if you do the same D1 mashing you can be full combo punished easily.
I usually start blocking after a blocked D1 (if I confirm) but I am a respectful player lol.

I will lab that walk back soon!
 
H

Hor_PeT

Kombatant
I labbed walk back against Scorpion, Sub Zero yes it works. But need to do that walk back immediately (if you are prepared to the poke war that will be okay).
Against e.g. Erron Black it is not working (D1 ok but 7F much better range D3 will catch you - I usually use D3 lol for 7F it is a cool move).

In general against better reach D3-D4 of course it does not work but there are exceptions.

It is absolutely worth using it.
It only can back fire if the opponent is not only D1 masher but not confirming into anything but after a D1 starts a 9-11F MID or good reach high which can catch your walk back. I saw that many times. Against them an S1 full combo punish is working but it should be a read! Worst case you eat a D1 - but my friend likes mashing D2 too as on block it is safe and with Shao Kahn it beats my walk back too (yes that was the reason I did not use it lol I remember now).

I am sure I saw it from @NaughtySenpai during our mirror matches when I mashed D1 lol.

I think this anti D1 masher works for other characters as well not just Scorpion specific. Good tool for those who can not get enough respect with their 9F MID.
Even 11F MID is not enough against a masher who has 7F -3 on block D1.
 
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Bar_Bar13

Bar_Bar13

Friendly Neighborhood Spectre
When am I supposed to input the special to cancel from KB F34? The timing feels super weird.
 
NaughtySenpai

NaughtySenpai

Kombatant
Bar_Bar13 said:
When am I supposed to input the special to cancel from KB F34? The timing feels super weird.
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Right before the end of the cinematic. I watch the boots sink into the torso for a visual confirmation.
I miss it sometimes too though.
That one's gonna take a while for me to get 100%. I get it most of the time on the hellport cancel, but when they have defensive meter I go for the spear and miss that infuriatingly often.
 
J

Jaywayday84

Noob
Elias6999 said:
I really hate playing against Scorpion, its such a chore! What do you recommend I try against him? I can blow up his teleport just fine, its just his up close blockstrings (aside from 212) are really safe, and F34 is safe too, and his staggers are INSANE. Also DF4 is impossible to punish of you don’t have a fast advancing move.
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212 has a huge punishable gap.
 
J

Jaywayday84

Noob
NaughtySenpai said:
Right before the end of the cinematic. I watch the boots sink into the torso for a visual confirmation.
I miss it sometimes too though.
That one's gonna take a while for me to get 100%. I get it most of the time on the hellport cancel, but when they have defensive meter I go for the spear and miss that infuriatingly often.
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Input it 3 times will almost guarantee it comes out after crushing blow.
 
OutworldKeith

OutworldKeith

Champion
NaughtySenpai said:
I usually bait breakaway with f3,11 or f3, 21 on the juggle. You can hit confirm both strings in that scenario and if they breakaway you got them lying in front of you with tons of advantage.
You're pretty vulnerable if you go for f3,f32,bf2 or f3,4,bf1 which can open you up for a full combo punish if they break away at a good time.



By the way:
Am I crazy or is the 212+4 portion of db3 amp,f3,212+4 super hard to link on female characters? Was thinking about doing a big Scorpion combo guide for Youtube and went to the lab with D'Vorah and while the link is certainly hard, it seemed infinitely harder on her than on a Scorpion dummy, to the point I had to add a dash after the hellport amp to get it more consistently.
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The female characters usually have smaller hitboxes.

I like to go for smaller combos until they breakaway, then do my 40 pieces lol.

On the flip side, I usually breakaway if I get KB launched lol
 
H

Hor_PeT

Kombatant
OutworldKeith said:
I play with Krushing Blow button checks on. I always make sure they don’t have 2 defensive meters before I use f34 KB
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Good but it limits your efficiency (not the button but skipping KB only due to opponent's defensive meter reasons). I just simply do break away proof combo when I see 2 defensive meters (based on the observation of the opponent's break away habit I rather skip the spear and do different ender or try the spear if it would be better positioning). If they spend it for KB combo they will not spend in the next.
E.g. if you skip the good F34 KB opportunity you will need 2 more for a combo without break away (if they break away your next). And worst case you find another F34 hit and shaking your head not to combo it either. :)

I also play with KB button that gives very good strategy tool into our hands. Especially in Scorpion's hand where F34 is a good threat for thick throw.
 
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OutworldKeith

OutworldKeith

Champion
Hor_PeT said:
Good but it limits your efficiency (not the button but skipping KB only due to opponent's defensive meter reasons). I just simply do break away proof combo when I see 2 defensive meters (based on the observation of the opponent's break away habit I rather skip the spear and do different ender or try the spear if it would be better positioning). If they spend it for KB combo they will not spend in the next.
E.g. if you skip the good F34 KB opportunity you will need 2 more for a combo without break away (if they break away your next). And worst case you find another F34 hit and shaking your head not to combo it either. :)

I also play with KB button that gives very good strategy tool into our hands. Especially in Scorpion's hand where F34 is a good threat for thick throw.
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The threat of the KB is better than the reward from the KB imo.

I also like to save my KBs for the championship rounds lol.

It’s also a waste if they just breakaway.
 
H

Hor_PeT

Kombatant
OutworldKeith said:
The threat of the KB is better than the reward from the KB imo.

I also like to save my KBs for the championship rounds lol.

It’s also a waste if they just breakaway.
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Good news for Searing rage that F32 can help out F34 threat after depleating it. It is more risky though but if you think about flawless block F34 it is not much worse lol.
 
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