MKII Tier List Discussion

[Konqrr]

Hatman, you are a breath of fresh air! Thank you for your very informative post.

It's funny, because I use the Hop Fan quite a bit. Without it she suffers in a lot of matchups.

I agree wholeheartedly with everything you posted, but I have to say that Jax is a character that forces every other character in the game to play him differently and that makes him have a serious advantage, as stated, and getting him cornered is no easy task. Kitana has a very mean jab game and an almost guaranteed win when she corners her opponents, she even has the LP/HP jab infinite on Jax/Raiden/Male Ninjas in the corner! But that is not enough for her to go toe to toe with Jax. I think it is a serious uphill battle for her. I'd have to say that Jax has the upper hand in this and wins 6-4 for Kitana's ridiculous damage. If she didn't do as much damage as she does, round ending damage, then I'd say 7-3 Jax, but she is devastating and turns the round in an instant.

 

[coNsPirAcy]

Scheisse - Thats because dealing with the KT is easy.
Like i said, im pretty sure most Scorp players will agree with my assessment on Lao vs Scorp.

People, do yourselves a favor and learn the sweet spot. Youll thank me later. To the people whove seen it, (wario, kensi, dragula, konqrr, etc) you know whats up.

Anyways, I put the match between Jax and Kitana 6 - 4.

As Hatman stated, Jax controls space at the start and he must maintain control of that space. He does this by hovering just at the tip of her sweep range. Jax must be wary of her 2 most dangerous weapons in this matchup. Her sweep and the corners.

Now, when Jax is hovering at this range, his main weapons are GP and HK. If she stays grounded, he can throw out HK with almost 100% safety since at that range...

- she cannot sweep him (his HK far outranges her sweep)
- if she jumps, attacks, etc HK will win clean
- if HK whiffs, the recovery is good and you should be okay.

The way to maintain this range is to step into range of her sweep then walk back. Depending on range, its one step in, one or two steps back. If you get predictable, she can start sweeping you. You must keep this in mind and mixup your steps back. As long as you take mental notes of your steps back, barely inching away towards the corners when you take 2 steps back, you are ok. If she tries to sweep it will whiff and then you GP. You want to keep this distance because of shes in range to block the HK, she can smack you and move in.

Now at some point she will be forced to jump in since at this range she cant do much and more than likely, youve been chipping away with ground pound. Heres where that spacing pays off. She cannot do a jump kick right off the ground since itll whiff. Kitana/Mileena players look to JK Jax where his HK cannot reach. This spacing gives them that false sense of security because at this range, Jax CANNOT HK female ninjas out of the air. This is want Jax wants.

Do not attempt to AA-HK. Block then start HP'ing defensive punches (aka golden punches). If she attempts a fan you will still be blocking so fans arent an issue. If she does a late fan, youll AA her twice with the HPs then GP as she lands. Quickly transition into LPs that she is forced to block. Now, she has to guess whether youll GP during the jabs or keep jabbing since she must jump back to avoid ground pound. If she guesses wrong, Jax will be popping her repeatedly in her face then on pushback, GP, or if she stays, cancel the LPs with a GP.

Now, problems for Jax begin when she moves in. Your best friend in this situation is d+hk, i shit you not. It will eat her sweeps and can AA crossover JKs. Now, you are only to use it when you see her sweep. Anytime before that, she will sweep you. (On a side note, Jax can completely shut down male ninjas with this one move) Now, if she gets next to you, GOD HELP YOU.

Nah jk. You must look for an opportunity to d+lp her. This will beat her sweep but only @ close range. After pushback, Jax must create some space react accordingly. One option is an crossover JK or crossover empty jump. There are other options but they must be done accordingly to how she reacts, mainly a GP. The crossover jump usually works since you havent jumped during the entire match, she cant anticipate it. If Kitana attempts a poke, as you land (most likely an uppercut) magic throw. If hes in the corner, Jaxs options are extremely limited as Hatgrill has stated. But by that time you reach the corner, Kitana should have most of her life gone so just turtle so you can think things though. Sooner or later, shell make a mistake in an attempt for damage. Remember kids, in the corner, HK, d+lp, and GP are your friends.

6 - 4 Jax.

Keep in mind, that im coming into this with a Jax players perspective, Hatgrill is coming with a Kitanas players perspective.

 

[Goofart]

Con brought up some good points with scorp but I'm still siding with sushi and scheisse of kung over scorp by a slight margin.

Kit vs Jax, I think 6-4 in favour of jax. Kitana has great sweep range but jax has a great keep out hk to prevent her from getting close. Wave punch messes up the air attacks and keeps her grounded, then the gp's force her to jump and eat a wave.

 

[Konqrr]

If you are Kitana and know how to execute the infinite jab trap, then Jax had better not block at all in the corner or he will die.

6-4 Jax puts her at 6th, Scorpion at 7th, and Jax/Liu swap places with Liu at the top spot.

 

[dubson]

I really don't see how it is 6-4 Jax, I don't see how it is less than 7-3 Jax.

But Liu does need to be number 1.

 

[coNsPirAcy]

Mainly because of corner issues. Doesnt take long before you reach it. Also, she is a threat if she gets in. Otherwise i would say 7 - 3 as well.

 

[Kaiba]

Scorp v Lao is more like 5-5, after doing some playing. Lao would have a 6-4 edge IF AND ONLY IF the spin maneuver had a better input command other than U, U, LK. All it takes is one aaSpin and your looking at easily 70%+ damage everytime, especially vs Scorp.

 

[coNsPirAcy]

Dallas eh? Ill be there during the weekend.

Ill be glad to show you Lao cant do much to Scorp unless hes moving. Which version are you running?

 

[Kaiba]

Dallas eh? Ill be there during the weekend.

Ill be glad to show you Lao cant do much to Scorp unless hes moving. Which version are you running?

MacMAME, MAT2, & all the consoles excluding PSX. No arcade board or PS3 yet.

Lao's wiff dive is very valuable in MKII, even if not used for his cross/corner inf. It may not be as quick as in the MK3 saga, but its very underrated.

 

[coNsPirAcy]

Not when you can d+lp on reaction when it does whiff forcing Lao to block. When people realize this, it takes alot out of his game. This also shuts down his empty jump tactic. Like i said, ill be glad to show you. My friend has a MK2 cab over there.

Also, MAT2 is a no go for me. Runs too fast.

 

[dubson]

That is the only way for things to be set it stone.

Actual human players playing each other, equal of skill.

Otherwise all we have is speculation that can go on forever.

I'm willing to test with people.

 

[Kaiba]

Not when you can d+lp on reaction when it does whiff forcing Lao to block. When people realize this, it takes alot out of his game. This also shuts down his empty jump tactic. Like i said, ill be glad to show you. My friend has a MK2 cab over there.

Also, MAT2 is a no go for me. Runs too fast.

So I'm assuming your also factoring in his range that he can wiff dive too?
It takes practice but you can control where Lao will land based on a) the location of your jump & b) how soon, or late, you push d+hk.

Lao has so much more than what most people, from what I've seen/heard can do on a PS3.

MAT2 isn't that bad when you consider other versions...*cough cough MK:SM, cough SNES (E), cough*

 

[coNsPirAcy]

Yep. Like i said, i can show you. Oh and he does have alot more but taking the dive kick out removes alot of his game. Thats why you only see it used for guaranteed punishment situations and combos.

So, lemme know if you wanna play...

 

[HatmanSTL]

Why thank you Konqrr, using Dial for Men (Man Size w/18oz extra!) is why I try to be a breath of fresh air everywhere! XD

But my own silliness aside, I suppose 4-6 isn't unreasonable in that matchup. I still believe it's a bit closer (but that depends on if we use .5 in the ratio, which might be a pain in the ass). I will say that the gap is larger and closer to a 4-6 in favor of a COMPLETE Jax (one that has an equally strong defense AND offense) in a tournament or short series of games since the initial offensive options at Jax's disposal while maintaining a strong general defense allows him to initiate guessing games in his favor first before the Kitana player can adjust to holes and patterns, and it tends to tighten more and more evenly as more games are played in that matchup.

con83: I'm a big fan of sweet spot spacing (re: whiff punishing), as a Tekken veteran it has taught me much about the importance of it and agree that it's a very viable tactic for all the ninjas more than anyone else in the game because they don't have that "sliding step" animation to throw them off of precision movement. Anyway, you've made good points in defense of Jax. Without getting too down-to-the-move theory fighting, I use blatant buffered (from a jab or crouch) standing Fan Toss (yes, the slow one) to hit the whiff of out of range baiting Jax HK. Also, as good as Jax's ducking HK is, sweep is guaranteed on him even if it hits Kitana (distance provided, of course). I also use "empty jump" (I like that) setups as well, they're as viable for Kitana as they are for Jax. But I feel that it's leaning a bit here and there toward theory fighting as opposed to listing options. Examples should be a bit more focused on strong generalizations of options than specific down to the move analyzations; those are decided during actual play, IMO. Even my analyzation is guilty of that in a few spots.

I suppose my point is (and I realize I'm in the minority here) that the options are so plentiful and fully counterable on both sides that it's a constant guessing game at all ranges all the time. There's doesn't seem to be a facet that one character possesses that skews the the balance so horribly that the opposing character can't counter or compete with. That's why I feel it's pretty close to even. Anyway, I'd really like dvdcsn's take on the matter. My conclusions have been drawn based on my matches with him, as he is the strongest overall Jax I've ever played (granted I've never played DreamTR and though con83 did maul me 11-1 over a year ago the one time I played him, this was well before the updated strategies with both Jax and Kitana were being implemented well, at least on PSN). I've had 3 major sessions with him (all three ended up being about 70+ game sessions). The first I got destroyed and ate a 20ish win streak. The second was better for me and more competitive, but he still won convincingly. The third was very close with him at a slight advantage (both of us had short streaks but his had a few extra games tacked onto 'em than mine, but the kicker was how often the matches in between literally were back and forth; he'd win, I'd win, he'd win, I'd win, etc. and it would go like that for about 20 or so matches before someone would win maybe 2 in a row and then right back to back and forth). Of course, this was still many months ago and I've been on hiatus until recently, but he may vouch for me that it's a pretty close match. Or he may not. Anyway the third session was the greatest experience I've ever had playing MK2...ever. All the tactics listed by con83 and me were being performed and countered constantly, and then some. It's too bad they weren't recorded. Oh well. At least I can definitely say that it didn't look like we were playing with our feet.

 

[dubson]

-

Some input from your buddy Slipkicks would be appreciated with Raiden and Scorpion since I know he is really good with them. I know he hasn't been playin MK lately, but he told me on XBL a long time ago you and him are buddies and play Tekken and other fighters together.

 

[coNsPirAcy]

Hatman - You also brought up something i forgot about. Crouch canceling. Where you do a move from crouch. Very usable for alot of chars to throw them off and depending on your char, very good for projectile punishment.

I remember when people thought i was cheating on PSN when i started doing it lol. Anyways, its extremely useful for Kits Fan Lift and Flying Punch. I personally like using it for Jaxs power/fire/black wave.

As for Scorpion input, yeah slips needs to be here. There are alot of good Scorp players and we all use him differently. Best overall i gotta give it to Kensi...

Yeesh, i cant space in Tekken for shit. I can space in VF, SC, ST, MK but never Tekken, and i used Julia... I still remember you were beating down peeps in 5.0 @ TiT with Asuka and Anna IIRC.

 

[Goofart]

I've been using ducking/buffered insta-moves for quite a while and it's really improved my cage, lao, raiden, kang and kitana. Good way to bait opponents into jumping forwards, countering projectiles, or just keep them guessing. But my thumbs are too slow to get the 3 taps fast enough for that damn crouching fan lift or baraka's blade fury.

Anyways, Va380 has an underated scorp.

And hatgrill I have to play you sometime. I have you on my list for months but you were so deep into calibur at the time. And same with you con. When you are ever back on the ps3 online scene, hook me up with some matches. I need to study these styles!

 

[Konqrr]

I feel that it's leaning a bit here and there toward theory fighting as opposed to listing options. Examples should be a bit more focused on strong generalizations of options than specific down to the move analyzations; those are decided during actual play, IMO.

^^QFT

Thanks Hatman, you had some other Kitana matchups you'd like to discuss?

No matter what Lao does on a jumpin vs a Male Ninja whether it's a simple JK or whiff dive or empty jump, he will have to block the d+LP every time because the only move that is going to hit a ducking Male Ninja is a jump punch and that has to be spaced right. I'm sure that Scorpion is willing to eat a few of those before he starts punishing your JP attempts...

 

[ded]

MAT2 isn't that bad when you consider other versions...*cough cough MK:SM, cough SNES (E), cough*

whats the difference between MKSM and MAT2 versions?

 

[Vassago187]

Magic throw is when your opponent attempts a poke and although you take damage, you will throw them even if they are holding back to avoid a throw. Jax, Cage, Shang, and Raiden have them. Lao has a magic throw as well but its hard to do with him for some reason. In anycase, it will "trade" (in the throwers favor) with just pokes. Anything like roundhouse, uppercut, projectile etc it will beat clean. But only with the aforementioned chars.

that would explain how I get thrown even when im blocking on rare occations. this is something i oughta learn for sure!

 

[Kaiba]

whats the difference between MKSM and MAT2 versions?

SM is just a little faster IMO.

 

[Goofart]

yep it does run a tad faster and can't play smoke. Play the ps3 version then MKSM - you can feel the difference immediately.

 

[Konqrr]

ok, messing around with some setups for the corner jab infinite and is extremely useful for characters like Sub-Zero, Baraka, and Shang.

Sub can freeze you near the corner with a normal freeze or a ground ice and start the infinite, I did this a few times online today. Pretty easy.

Baraka has a sort of corner trap where he jump kicks you and can do the Blade Fury which forces you to block or you will be hit by it, then he can jump back in to do it again. You can uppercut him if you have a good uppercut character like Shaolin or Female Ninja, he can mixup whether he is going to do the Blade Fury or start the infinite with HP. Once you guess wrong and get caught in the jabs it's over for you.

Shang is a monster up close, his jabs hit most characters when they are ducking even if they are not blocking so his is the easiest to do. Just trap someone in the corner and scare them with a couple sweeps making them block then start the infinite...dead.

Kung Lao, Cage, Kitana/Mileena have the HP variation but it is harder to setup. You can do Kitana's or Mileena's off a connected close HP elbow.

The only way you can catch Cage or Shang with it is if they are standing up and/or blocking. The only way to do it with a Male Ninja is the same.

I think this raises Sub a bit against some characters who are weak against him, also Baraka has a better advantage in the corner now, Jax beware...

 

[coNsPirAcy]

Sub IMO is worst in the game. Reptile at least has options...

Hit him once then run. Whats he gonna do? He cant chip you. Slide is too risky and offline blockable on reaction if out of sweep range. (block side blocked = free uppercut) He must approach you and they will start getting desperate/frustrated as time winds down and youre ahead on life. Ill admit, i do get a kick outta beat Subs by timeout.

Hes easy to anti air. Catch his JP/JK late? Yay d+HK which knocks his out of air. Ice slick? Crossover JK or jump back on reaction. Hes far too risky to bait slides cause the risk/reward ratio is skewed on that one. Only real good thing he has is a pretty good anti air. Thats it...

In short, no one as of now should be loosing to any Sub player. (fadeoutp3, threeshots3, RSM80, etc) Maybe when the game came out but not anymore. Online made him a bit better but overall hes pretty much worthless...

 

[Vassago187]

konqrr, if y ou are able you should post vids of those infinites. I'd like to see that in action..and not first hand!