MKII Tier List Discussion

[scaryice]

Here's a list of every matchup in the game, there's only 66 in total. Just put down how much each character wins out of ten (assuming both players are equally skilled). If enough people do that, then there should be a pretty good consensus and also give us an idea of where the debate should be focused.

BARAKA

vs Jax
vs Johnny Cage
vs Kitana
vs Kung Lao
vs Liu Kang
vs Mileena
vs Raiden
vs Reptile
vs Scorpion
vs Shang Tsung
vs Sub Zero

JAX

vs Johnny Cage
vs Kitana
vs Kung Lao
vs Liu Kang
vs Mileena
vs Raiden
vs Reptile
vs Scorpion
vs Shang Tsung
vs Sub Zero

JOHNNY CAGE

vs Kitana
vs Kung Lao
vs Liu Kang
vs Mileena
vs Raiden
vs Reptile
vs Scorpion
vs Shang Tsung
vs Sub Zero

KITANA

vs Kung Lao
vs Liu Kang
vs Mileena
vs Raiden
vs Reptile
vs Scorpion
vs Shang Tsung
vs Sub Zero

KUNG LAO

vs Liu Kang
vs Mileena
vs Raiden
vs Reptile
vs Scorpion
vs Shang Tsung
vs Sub Zero

LIU KANG

vs Mileena
vs Raiden
vs Reptile
vs Scorpion
vs Shang Tsung
vs Sub Zero

MILEENA

vs Raiden
vs Reptile
vs Scorpion
vs Shang Tsung
vs Sub Zero

RAIDEN

vs Reptile
vs Scorpion
vs Shang Tsung
vs Sub Zero

REPTILE

vs Scorpion
vs Shang Tsung
vs Sub Zero

SCORPION

vs Shang Tsung
vs Sub Zero

SHANG TSUNG

vs Sub Zero

 

[Lars]

You probably got MKP, which is like, HPHPHPHPHP = 5 hit combo that ends in an uppercut for everyone.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[BD_PREDATOR]

All I Can Say Is Who Is Playing Jax Some Jax Players Are Very Hard To Beat And One Are Easy
Vs Millena

 

[Konqrr]

All I Can Say Is Who Is Playing Jax Some Jax Players Are Very Hard To Beat And One Are Easy
Vs Millena

Let's Not Capitalize Every Single Word, Ok?

 

[dubson]

scaryice has the right idea, with the matchup chart

 

[Not II ROFL II RIP]

Let's Not Capitalize Every Single Word, Ok?

I Like To Do That Too

but seriously I do lol

 

[Konqrr]

scaryice has the right idea, with the matchup chart

Yeah, he does. I really want to do this too.

 

[Konqrr]

I did a quick mockup of the grid...interesting stuff here, and it is obviously up for discussion and major fine tuning:

The numbers in the gray area are how many matches the character on the left would win out of ten if both players of equal skill were playing against each other. The numbers on the right are how many matches above or below the average they are, the average is five.

 

[Tim Static]

Oops Konqrr!!! 1 & 2 are mixed up! lol

 

[dubson]

That looks like what it would look like based off the the current tier list, but to build one of those match-up charts you would need to to 10 matches of every character versus every character, against a human player of equal skill.

 

[Konqrr]

That looks like what it would look like based off the the current tier list, but to build one of those match-up charts you would need to to 10 matches of every character versus every character, against a human player of equal skill.

That's what that is...but it requires quite a bit of discussion as it is a very rough draft. I just plugged in numbers quickly of what I thought and the tier list turned out that way with lao above kit and cage sucking.

 

[dubson]

I think Liu is the best... I always have.

=/

Cage is definitely better than Baraka...

 

[Konqrr]

Let's discuss one character at a time, with matchups to determine the best of ten results.

Baraka has superior rh, sweep, anti air than Cage. I think Baraka's HP hits Cage ducking and blocking, not all characters can do this. He can rh Cage's jk easily. He can get a lead and turtle all day to beat Cage. Also buffering the Blade Fury while ducking to bait a jump in is a very good tactic. You can't buffer the Shadow Uppercut in this manner.

All that being said, I put Baraka beating Cage 6-4 in the matchup. How about the rest of the matchups for Baraka? He can aaRH Shang with ease, but can't withstand the FB onslaught or the jabs so he loses to Shang 4-6, probably worse than that.

This is what we should be discussing so we can tweak this grid and make it as accurate as possible.

 

[dubson]

I wasn't comparing Baraka vs. Cage in that single match-up.

I agree that Baraka is favorable against Cage, but I think that Cage is better against Scorpion than noted.

And I do agree that Shang beats Baraka probably 7-3.

 

[Konqrr]

I wasn't comparing Baraka vs. Cage in that single match-up.

I agree that Baraka is favorable against Cage, but I think that Cage is better against Scorpion than noted.

And I do agree that Shang beats Baraka probably 7-3.

What makes Cage able to fight Scorpion? Scorpion's only weakness vs Cage is if he manages to trap himself in the corner where he can't teleport out. Scorpion zones the hell out of Cage and can trap him pretty well staying just out of reach and teleporting the back of Cage's head any time he tries to throw a fireball. He can also buffer a spear from ducking which is a prime position to be in against Cage when within sweep distance. Crossup kicks while throwing out air throw attempts, Scorpion can safely duck after he lands to see what Cage will do then begin jumping again. If Cage jumps back from this, he gets hit with a Double Spear Uppercut. Scorpion also has great sweeps for chip damage then teleport to safety.

That's why I put Scorpion over Cage 7-3.

 

[dubson]

What makes Cage able to fight Scorpion? Scorpion's only weakness vs Cage is if he manages to trap himself in the corner where he can't teleport out. Scorpion zones the hell out of Cage and can trap him pretty well staying just out of reach and teleporting the back of Cage's head any time he tries to throw a fireball. He can also buffer a spear from ducking which is a prime position to be in against Cage when within sweep distance. The crossup kicks while throwing out air throw attempts, sweeps for chip damage then teleport to safety.

That's why I put Scorpion over Cage 7-3.

Idk, I find little to no trouble destroying Scorpion with Cage a majority of the time.

I think his up close pressure is favorable against Scorpion. Plus his aaHP can hit his JK pretty much anywhere, right into a shadow kick. Cage will uppercut the shit outta him tryin to crossover JK.

Baiting him into blocked teleports, into the same punisher, or just jab pressure.

I just pretty much back him into the corner, and if he wants to have a turtle fight, I think Cage has the advantage. Cage can pretty much wreck Scorpion anyway he comes at him.

Eventually, Scorpion is gonna fail at a teleport, running away all match. And I mean if you are gonna use the turtle tactic with Scorpion, then Cage can just aswell. He can back him into the corner while baiting kara jabs... and when Cage eventually gets up close to him, Scorpion is gonna get hurt... Cage's jabs wreck him.

I also think that Scorpion is favorable against Kung Lao, than noted...

 

[Konqrr]

That's some good shit right there. I forgot about his elite jabs.

Cage has very good jabs and a Close HP that hits most characters ducking, his sweep is the exact same length, recovery, and duration as any Male Ninja.

He does turtle very well against most characters.

His Shadow Kick will hit Scorp every time on a blocked Spear at half screen or closer.

What do you think the score should be? 6-4 Cage?

----------------------------------------------

Baraka vs Liu Kang:
-Liu's JP counters Baraka's jump attacks quite well.
-Liu's Fireball traps keep Baraka guessing and eating chip damage.
-Liu's uppercut hits Baraka's JK unless it's from a distance but then Liu can simply Low Fire his ass out of the air.
-Liu has MBK =)

-Baraka has those long sweeps that catch Liu doing Low Fire too close which leads to his jab game, but Liu can easily counter with his elite Toe Kick or ducking LP.
-Baraka can't use his corner JK->Blade Fury trap on Liu because he will eat an uppercut every time.

The only chance Baraka has is to keep his spacing so his Jump Kicks won't get hit by an uppercut and anticipate Low Fireballs to jump kick then try to get in and play his jab/sweep game trying to corner Liu.

Liu Kang wins 9-1 vs Baraka

 

[dubson]

6-4 or 7-3, I definitely think it's favorable for Cage.

 

[Tim Static]

6-4 or 7-3, I definitely think it's favorable for Cage.

Def 7-3 at least.

Nut punch >>>>> Teleport punch lmao

 

[dubson]

I would say 7-3 aswell....

 

[dubson]

I also believe Scorpion to be favorable against Kung Lao.

- Any time Kung trys to spin he will take a spear.
- Any time Kung trys to teleport he will take a ducking LP, to Spear (unblockable)
- Any time Scorpion blocks a Dive Kick, Kung will take a spear.
- Any time Kung trys to throw a hat, he will eat a teleport punch to the back of the head.

 

[Konqrr]

Let's not forget that Lao's hp's (and Baraka's) own Male Ninjas when they crouch block and if Lao corners Scorpion with a perfectly spaced Spin, there is not a damn thing Scorpion can do, so if Lao is ahead in life it's game over.

Also, any Spear can be scouted and Dive Kicked from full screen!

Lao can use his ducking LK the same way that Liu Kang can and this forces Scorpion to come to him giving Lao a big advantage where it's hard for Scorpion to even hit him.

^^This is the main reason why I put Lao up 7-3

 

[Konqrr]

Nut punch >>>>> Teleport punch lmao

Let's keep it serious Tim ^_^

 

[dubson]

I think it is probably closer than any either of us have give credit for. You were right in a lot of your arguments including that Kung does rape Scorp up close. But you also assumed that the Scorp player was bad in some of your arguments. You say that Kung has a lot of options, but I believe Scorp shuts down many of his options, but Kung does the same to him.

I still think that Scorp has more options against Kung, than the other way around...

 

[sushi615]

lao has toe taps for scorps.. and spins kills spears if closes enuff for those who cant judge distances..
lao's Hp, Lp rush jab pressures makes it kinda difficult for scorp..

so 8=2