MKII Tier List Discussion

[Konqrr]

There are some things that I would change for Kitana seeing as how she struggles in the footsie battle against several characters. She has to slowly force her opponent to the corner with iAF and sweeps/jabs. If she jumps in, she is taken out by an aaHK every time. And honestly, her iAF doesn't really improve any of her matchups except vs Jax.

Shang's sweep and jab game just rapes everyone in this game.

I think that Sub has an extremely hard time when he doesn't have the life lead, so some of his matchups are worse than what is shown. Sub really sucks at rushdown, everything he has comes with great risk. He might be the worst in the game.

 

[B_Frisco]

I'm still noobish but I have a lot of the basics down. From what I've seen I just dnt understand how mileena could be better than jax. Turtles are hella annoying but if anyone knows what they're doing with jax (which I don't) they should be victorious in most matchups. I feel like mileena has some bad matches you wouldn't want to use her in but jax doesn't really. I trust everyones judgement here so can someone explain how mileena is superior?

 

[Konqrr]

She can hurt you safely from anywhere on the screen with air sai spam. It is extremely difficult to get around unless you are a top tier character or one with mobility like Lao or Kitana. Sub can freeze and Scorpion can teleport punch her during her air sai, but that only stops her from spamming it. She can roll into a jp, air sai combo on male ninjas to punish them trying something like a projectile.

She's just too good. Jax is better than her not because he wins in their matchup, but because he is better overall. Liu Kang and Mileena are pretty much interchangeable on the tier list as they both dominate everyone else.

Can the top 3 be beat by characters in the bottom 9? OF COURSE THEY CAN.

 

[B_Frisco]

Ok that makes sense alot more now. Lol I guess I just saw your video with u playing jax (hopefully I'm not mistaken) but you got around the sai to what seemed easy. Anyway that makes sense thanks konqrr.

 

[Konqrr]

it's a lot easier to get around offline, but yeah. properly timed ground pound hits her after an air sai attempt.

 

[tonshaad1230]

this is my mid tier :
4. Kitana
5. Shang Tsung
6. Kung Lao
7. Raiden.

 

[BeRB]

Kitana is fourth? Anyways,

I consider this in my opinion what i think tiers are
Top:
#1. Jax
#2. Mileena
#3. Raiden
Mid:
#4. Kung Lao
#5. Shang Tsung
#6. Kitana
#7. Subzero
#8. Reptile
Low:
#9. Johnny Cage
#10. Baraka ( I think he's more above on the list but he wasn't practical to me either)
#11. Liu Kang
#12. Scorpion

Or swap Liu Kang and scorpions position, Scorpion
was never a practical char for me in MKII, But I always
felt Liu Kang had potential.

 

[MKB]

Kitana is fourth? Anyways,

I consider this in my opinion what i think tiers are
Top:
#1. Jax
#2. Mileena
#3. Raiden
Mid:
#4. Kung Lao
#5. Shang Tsung
#6. Kitana
#7. Subzero
#8. Reptile
Low:
#9. Johnny Cage
#10. Baraka ( I think he's more above on the list but he wasn't practical to me either)
#11. Liu Kang
#12. Scorpion

Or swap Liu Kang and scorpions position, Scorpion
was never a practical char for me in MKII, But I always
felt Liu Kang had potential.

As much as I love using Raiden, I have to admit he does not belong anywhere in the top 3.

 

[Tim Static]

#11. Liu Kang

Or swap Liu Kang and scorpions position, Scorpion
was never a practical char for me in MKII, But I always
felt Liu Kang had potential.

#11? Potential? Come on, seriously....

 

[BeRB]

#11? Potential? Come on, seriously....

I love Liu Kang, Of course i see potential in him or he wouldn't be my main char in all the MK Games , I feel in my opinion raiden could be top 3, Then again that's just an opinionated list not real facts. I wasn't even aware I put scorpion in bottom tier i think he's mid, I must have been really tired.

 

[coNsPirAcy]

Basically, all that Liu needs is ducking LK and there is nothing that Scorpion can do except try to time a sweep or teleport on top of Liu for an ambiguous crossup throw. Can Scorpion win? Of course he can, but it is an extremely uphill battle.

Long time since ive posted here but with the MKHD collection incoming, my interest is back...

Now your last sentence is correct, but Kangs d+LK can be beat with the sweet spot sweep. Youve experienced this against me first hand in 4 matches (we played 12 matches total, you CP'd all 3 chars i used and it didnt work) and you stopped doing it in the 2nd match because it wasnt working.

I have a post in this thread somewhere describing what the sweet spot was...

 

[coNsPirAcy]

It comes down to timing, and his d.lk isn't the only thing that he has when it comes to that scenario. On paper, he has the potential to d.lk all day and run down the clock against scorp.

Saying d+LK is the only thing needed ninjas is laughable at best because "on paper", its theoretical. Konqrr has experienced firsthand when we played last when i used Scorp and he CP'd with Kang, and then Lao when Kangs d+LK wasnt working. But then again, Lao isnt really a CP for Scorp.

As i stated, i have a post here that describes Scorps plan against Kang as well as why Scorp is a hard fight for Lao. Concerning Kang, it is uphill for Scorp but running and relying on d+LK will get Kang killed if the Scorp/Ninja player knows the sweet spot range.

The fight is harder for the other 2 ninjas because they lack the mobility of Scorp.

 

[Konqrr]

Con, it's sort of hard to time c.lk when there is delay and when we played there was a lot of it. Whether or not a person can do it effectively does not negate the tactic.

c.LK really is all a Liu player needs against Scorpion. The player who is Liu can hold down and tap forward constantly to mask the input and if the Scorpion player is close, he just does c.LK. If the Scorpion player is in "the sweep sweet spot", the Liu player can press LP instead on reaction to the incoming sweep and hit him out of it.

Of course, this is all theory fighter and the Liu player has to have really good reaction time to do this. Also, the Liu player isn't really just going to sit there in one spot all day ducking either.

When it's all said and done, Liu is a REALLY bad matchup for Scorpion. It's the worst matchup in the game...worse than Reptile vs Mileena.

 

[coNsPirAcy]

Found the post...

Also, the killer toe isnt something to be feared. I dunno why alot of you think its a automatic ninja killer. Its not. Now, theres a "sweet spot" where if Kang (im using Kang as an example since Laos toe is easy to deal with) tries to mixup d+lk or low fireball, the sweep beats both options. It beats both options because all Scorp has to do is stand in the sweet spot, and wait. He sticks out d+lk? Whiff and sweep. As long as he catches the limb sticking out (no time before otherwise the d+lk will win), he will get swept. And even if you mess up the timing, Kang will be forced to block since the sweep will beat any next option. (d+lp, d+lk, fireball) Low fireball? Easy block, sweep punish. The sweet spot applies to Lao as well.

Now, it is a little tough to get used to the online timing of this but once you do, its pretty easy. Offline the killer toe isnt much.

It was something i tested to fight against the killer toe (as yungnicca dubbed it) as well as Kangs other options (low fireball, d+LP) and it worked. It cant be theory when its tested/applied in real matches and i know im not the only one who knows this strat.

Scorpangel, Wario, Yungnicca, Xiongbros, etc. ive used it against all of them with success. As i stated, offline timing isnt needed.

Scheisse - Correct. Its when Scorp is right next to Kang the killer toe is extremely effective. Scorp is forced to block until he gets out of range. The chip damage is tiny but blocking 3 - 5 of them will hurt in the long run. When approaching Kang, as long as you know the KT's range you can stop on a dime and sweep since the ninjas take small steps.

Kangs best weapon in the matchup is his low fireball from crouch. If male ninjas arent in sweep range, thats the killer right there.

In short, yes its a bad matchup but its a notch above Rep/Mil. I would say Jax/Sub is the worst matchup in the game.

 

[tonshaad1230]

Jax/Sub is one of the worst matchups in the game but Kitana/reptile is the ultimate

 

[Konqrr]

Kitana vs Reptile is only 6-4 Kitana...Mileena vs Reptile is like 8-2 though lol

 

[tonshaad1230]

Oh wow... that shows how much i know =-/

 

[Konqrr]

Once Kitana gets in, it is hard for Reptile to get out without taking some good damage...but she has to get in there first and that is VERY hard against male ninjas.

Reptile has many opportunities to go invisible, from there he just waits for her to try to get in and she gets hit out easily.

It's still difficult for him, but it's definitely not a terrible matchup like Rep/Mil haha

 

[DreamTR]

Once Kitana gets in, it is hard for Reptile to get out without taking some good damage...but she has to get in there first and that is VERY hard against male ninjas.

Reptile has many opportunities to go invisible, from there he just waits for her to try to get in and she gets hit out easily.

It's still difficult for him, but it's definitely not a terrible matchup like Rep/Mil haha

Well...all she needs is one sweep, the thing is, her walk speed is so fast that she can walk in and out of ninja sweeps and when that happens, one sweep and Jab games and with Kitana Back + HP also...I think it's way worse when you look at it that way...Kitana never has to jump at all or even throw anything. Granted it is not as bad as Mileena but she got crazy tools against all 3 of them with that sweep reach...

 

[MKK hanzo]

Well...all she needs is one sweep, the thing is, her walk speed is so fast that she can walk in and out of ninja sweeps and when that happens, one sweep and Jab games and with Kitana Back + HP also...I think it's way worse when you look at it that way...Kitana never has to jump at all or even throw anything. Granted it is not as bad as Mileena but she got crazy tools against all 3 of them with that sweep reach...

Sup Jason! Thx for posting, nice to see you here I didnt noticed.

 

[Konqrr]

Well...all she needs is one sweep, the thing is, her walk speed is so fast that she can walk in and out of ninja sweeps and when that happens, one sweep and Jab games and with Kitana Back + HP also...I think it's way worse when you look at it that way...Kitana never has to jump at all or even throw anything. Granted it is not as bad as Mileena but she got crazy tools against all 3 of them with that sweep reach...

Reptile and Sub have really good footsies against sweeps though. They do not suffer from the "must complete full walk animation before I can duck" syndrome that non-ninjas do, so they can walk in and out of range at will. Slide punishes sweep attemts for free.

You are right though, one sweep and Kitana is in, and when she is in, you take damage no matter what.

The key to the matchup is getting invisible and three things...1. making her jump at you...2. Putting safe forceballs on the screen...and 3. punishing her whiffed moves. Getting invisible is a simple matter of making her block or duck an acid spit or after any aaRH.

I still think the matchup is 6-4 Kitana because Reptile's options are actually viable in this matchup and she has no safe jump options (who jumps at ninjas anyways lol). An expert Kit who can do iAFs at will would make it 6.5-3.5 or even 7-3 though. Perhaps the match should be drawn up that way right? Best possible Kit vs best possible Rep = 7-3 Kitana.

EDIT: Here's a match in an online tournament of David GEM vs me playing this matchup. Granted, it is online so don't judge it too hard. I should have gone invisible more. It's the first match. Keep watching to see the Shang infinite on Raiden midscreen lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4ZmlrudcKs

 

[DreamTR]

Heh, Kitana should have stand RH Reptile everytime but he didn't do that to you at all =P

I'll say this on slide, it's too easy to block that and uppercut on reaction; and you can bait the sweep out but it's risky. You are better off just blocking the sweep instead of risking uppercut damage on blocked slide. I know online it's way tougher to instant block those, another reason I keep away from online on MK2 period. .it's just got too many issues in general with little things like that...fun to mess around in, but hoooo nooooooo, LOL.....

Shang jabs were funny

 

[Shock]

Konqrr, Raiden can't ducking LK when he manages to duck on the breaks?

 

[dubson]

the rep kitana matchup i would also say 6-4 at best for kitana

i often use reptile to counter kitana infact, so more testing is needed on the matchup but its definately not that bad at all for reptile for most of the reasons konqrr already said

 

[Konqrr]

I'll say this on slide, it's too easy to block that and uppercut on reaction; and you can bait the sweep out but it's risky. You are better off just blocking the sweep instead of risking uppercut damage on blocked slide. I know online it's way tougher to instant block those, another reason I keep away from online on MK2 period. .it's just got too many issues in general with little things like that...fun to mess around in, but hoooo nooooooo, LOL.....

You are right about throwing out random slides, but if you bait out sweeps from your opponent, like sweeping them at the tip of your sweep and walking back and they try to counter sweep you...you can slide them for free and they can't block because they are in sweep animation. That's what I meant.

I agree 100% with what you said about online lol

Shock, if Raiden blocks a jab, he might be able to get one off or even jump out (which he gets hit out of the air). But it's risky because if he gets hit by a jab, he has to block the next one to try to get out. He has to try something though and takes damage doing so.