MKII Tier List Discussion

[Konqrr]

Sub has a lot of options, way better than Reptile.

Trading projectiles, winner: Sub

Close game, winner: Sub due to free ground ice after sweep on most characters

Damage potential, winner: Sub -- Reptile has virtually no damage potential...Sliding people trying to ducking LK the forceball? Give me a break.

The ONLY thing Reptile has going for him is Invisibility, aaRH, and surprise slides

Sub is a very defensive character who makes you come to him, he has two infinites if he freezes you in the corner, jabs and rh's, both are doable.

 

[coNsPirAcy]

Free ice slick after sweep? I dont remember that being possible offline... Online maybe.

No ones gonna trade projectiles with Sub. Also, the difference maker is that Reptile can go invis which gives him mobility options. Sub cant chip when someone runs from him. Rep can at least go invis and attempt to use forceball setups when someone runs from him. Sushi and Tru were great Reptile players and they had great success with him only because of invis being the main weapon. Theyre both bad chars but Sub is pretty worthless.

Sub offline has his weaknesses greatly magnified because not only can you run from him, stuff possible only online with him (say for example, JK then ice slick ~ uppercut) are gone.

Also, im curious about these jab infinites as well. Only thing im aware of with jabs is multi ground death
punches and DP stun. An infinite is possible on Shang when he morphs back.

 

[Vassago187]

is it the slight lag from the online play that makes some of this stuff possible? (ie.free iceslick after sweep)

 

[coNsPirAcy]

Well i have never seen that offline, so if its being done online, im gonna have to assume so for this particular setup.

Offline changes alot of stuff around. Like Subs JK ~ ice slick ~ uppercut isnt possible. Kang and Laos KT are much easier to deal with, even without the sweet spot. You can insta SUJP/K Shang and Baraka if they try to JP/K you on reaction. (They both have excellent JP/Ks) Anti-airs are much easier since its reaction as opposed to anticipation. Mileena being able to react to almost anything, etc. (Online makes dealing with Mil alot easier) MGP/MBK isnt possible (on an actual MK2 cab or a emulated version using Happ parts) due to no emulation input errors and the construction of Cherry microswitches. Theres alot more and these are just some examples.

The slight lag even with 2 excellent connections makes alot of stuff not possible offline, possible. It also doesnt let you react to things as you could offline.

 

[Vassago187]

Well i have never seen that offline, so if its being done online, im gonna have to assume so for this particular setup.

Offline changes alot of stuff around. Like Subs JK ~ ice slick ~ uppercut isnt possible. Kang and Laos KT are much easier to deal with, even without the sweet spot. You can insta SUJP/K Shang and Baraka if they try to JP/K you on reaction. (They both have excellent JP/Ks) Anti-airs are much easier since its reaction as opposed to anticipation. Mileena being able to react to almost anything, etc. (Online makes dealing with Mil alot easier) MGP/MBK isnt possible (on an actual MK2 cab or a emulated version using Happ parts) due to no emulation input errors and the construction of Cherry microswitches. Theres alot more and these are just some examples.

The slight lag even with 2 excellent connections makes alot of stuff not possible offline, possible. It also doesnt let you react to things as you could offline.

that makes a lot of sense when I play on the cab some of the things don't work quite as well or as easy as online

 

[Goofart]

ground freeze after sweep I'm pretty sure is possible offline - I have done this many times and it seems the sweep animation cuts into the ground freeze, but to be honest I can't say for sure my opponent was actually trying to avoid it

However I agree that sub beats reptile - though an expert invisible reptile can definitely be a pain in the ass to deal with, in theory it should not be enough to break a top sub player. His moveset is painfully limited - force ball is just so slow and can be seen and countered a mile away using a few options - and acidspit dishes very little damage or can be ducked. The slide gives him some mobilility but the invisibility trick is a plus/minus I find. Since even the player controlling him can not see him judging the timing for counters or attacks that require pinpoint accuracy will be increasingly difficult. Not to mention the first several frames of invisibility leaves him wide open. Sub just needs a ground freeze to keep reptile from coming close then let the ice fly

 

[coNsPirAcy]

Goofart - If you got someone around, try it. Sweep them and see if they can jump back out of it. I think you can just jump out of it, but then again, ive never seen it. (this tactic)

Well, in terms in ninjas, Rep and Sub are extremely limited. But that being said, the runaway tactic applies for all chars against Sub. Try what i said above on any Sub player online. Get ahead on life then run. See what hilarity ensues lol. Im positive youll see what i mean about Sub.

EDIT - IDEA!!! When i install these DPDT switches on my stick, well throw some Rep & Sub matches. You use Sub and ill use Rep.

 

[Goofart]

true but don't you think an immediate sub slide after a properly timed jump can close the distance? I mean what would you do if you were in that situation? I'm not being sarcastic btw I'm just looking for a strategy in this particular scenario from a hit and runner.


edit: lol I just talked myself into an ass kicking courtesy of con - realtalk has a pretty strong sub I hear and lee-k's sub can do shit I have never seen before.

 

[coNsPirAcy]

If you try to slide after your opponent jumps, they get a free JK. Any delay in the slide, then can block then they get free uppercut.

EDIT - All i all, its extremely difficult for Sub to do anything when his opponents ahead on life and runs because ever option he has carries some considerable risk.

 

[AriaDelano]

As far as Reptile goes, I do agree on paper that he's the worst in the game, no question. Mediocre normals, annoying but weak projectile, situational Force Ball, high risk and low reward slide. His saving grace is invisibility, which is probably the most player dependent skill in the entire game. Poorly used, he seems like garbage. Competently used, he can seem very solid, even strong in most (not all) matchups. It's probably the only special move in the game that doesn't rate properly on paper at all.

This is what I was looking for, sub vs reptile wins in every category except his invisibility. There is no way to rate this, and a skilled invisible rep should not have a problem distancing ground freeze and the ice throw. The only way that sub can get to him is by slide, and thats a high risk / low damage reward. If you have ever seen Hatgrill play, you will know how he uses invisibility to the highest level.

 

[coNsPirAcy]

Exactly. I feel that Sub should be bottom but they are both pretty bad chars cept Reptile has at least some options if someone tries to run.

Also, the difference maker is that Reptile can go invis which gives him mobility options. Sub cant chip when someone runs from him. Rep can at least go invis and attempt to use forceball setups when someone runs from him. Sushi and Tru were great Reptile players and they had great success with him only because of invis being the main weapon. Theyre both bad chars but Sub is pretty worthless.

All i all, its extremely difficult for Sub to do anything when his opponents ahead on life and runs because ever option he has carries some considerable risk.

 

[Konqrr]

Jump Kick->Ground Ice is guaranteed if you get the jump kick deep enough offline.

What I meant by Sub's Sweep->Ground Ice working on most of the cast is that you can do a special move right when you hit the ground after a sweep...Liu can do his Bicycle Kick, Raiden can do the Superman, etc...I'd assume that any character can do a special move but it's risky because Sub might expect this and be ready for you. EDIT: Tested offline and it can be jumped out of. This is a useful tactic because once you are swept, if Sub is to sweep you again and you are trying to jump out, you will be swept again and he can either sweep again or ground ice.

MKII is a little different on getup animation than MK3+ where they have to do the whole kipup animation after a sweep BEFORE they can react, the only way to skip this is to hold down to recover ducking but then you have to do the stand animation then jump which takes a few frames and it's too late.

Anyways, you bring up some very good points...once you are up on life, all sub has is to rush you and that's a joke. But he is > Reptile 100%

 

[kensi]

I like Sub for the mind games you can play.

Freeze, late jump kick, ground ice
Freeze, late jump kick, quick jump kick, slide(you catch them as they try and jump away to avoid the ground ice.
Freeze, late jump kick, sweep, ground ice
Freeze, sweep, ground ice
Freeze, sweep, sweep, ground ice
etc...

in close combat switch up low jabs and sweeps and be ready to ground ice if they fall for the sweep. i spam the shit out of the ice blast as well. non-seasoned players will think twice before throwing projectiles if i keep hurling ice at em. then if they jump at you it's aaRH.

it's funny, alot of times with reptile, i'll go invisible as quick as i can on purpose against subby in anticipation of the slide. block, uppercut...re-disappear...rinse, repeat. works against scrubs alot and even seasoned vets. Hatgrill is great with invisible reptile...very tricky to find him.

also...Konqrr...what is this corner jab infinite you speak of?? i can nail the corner multiple RH from time to time but i've never heard of a jab inf.

 

[Konqrr]

I recorded a bunch of setups for all characters except Reptile for the corner jab infinite...All characters have setups for it except Lao, Reptile, Raiden.

I think that Liu has one but I have to test it, it may be escapable by allowing yourself to be thrown out at the beginning but I don't know.

I'll see when I have time to finish the video and I'll YouTube it.

 

[Konqrr]

Here's a variation of the corner jab infinite with Sub-Zero...Just to clarify, P2 is trying to duck and block to avoid the jabs the entire time. Once the jabs start, you can't do ANYTHING.

When I finish the video I'll post it up.

This is encoded using Xvid.

 

[Konqrr]

Here's the video:

http://www.ultimatemk.com/vForum/showthread.php?t=4295

 

[coNsPirAcy]

Ahhhh so its a variation of multi death punch but in corners. Hmmmm...

 

[Goofart]

Here's the video:

http://www.ultimatemk.com/vForum/showthread.php?t=4295

nice I've been working on the timing between the 3rd and 4th jab. Very tricky stuff to pull off.


I just quickly tried ground freeze after sweep and it works. Timing needs to be perfect not so much immediately after the sweep. I did it on 2p offline sub vs. sub. I tried a few attempts against cpu but ground freeze just wouldn't come out after the sweep.

 

[dadmcbad]

I'd be greatly interested in seeing how some of the quality players here exploit AI flaws for the arcade version and emulated versions (PS3, Midway Arcade Collections 2, etc.). I've gotten quite adept at exploiting holes in computer jump-attack and jump-dodge patterns with 7 characters, but can't find any similar holes with the remaining; Raiden, Liu Kang, Kitana, Mileena, and Kung Lao. With Kung Lao, I've found limited holes, but the AI seems to recognize what's going on and adjust accordingly.

If anyone could post some Youtube videos showing how they own the computer with those 5 characters, I'd greatly appreciate it. I can't seem to win more than 6-7 matches in a row with any of them.

 

[Shock]

I deleted a bunch of offtopic posts. It seems like people just want all message boards to fail. This is a warning.

 

[fusion117]

mk2 home versionz

So does anybody remember how awful the home versionz of mk2 were?And how it seemed so hard for the SNES,Genises,32x etc. to make a good version of it.The characters were always midgets and sound bites were always missing youd get "come 'ere" on the SNES and youd get "get over here" on the Genises version.Well im glad the ps3 finally made a carbon copy(not counting online play of course) also did the ranking change this time around?I just remember Raiden being ranked dead last?

 

[Konqrr]

Here's the most recent version of the Tier List:

This listing was made without taking into consideration Kitana's instant Air Fan.

 

[mhtdtr]

i have a question regarding the tier list. i dont know so much about mkii a high levels so i want to know if it is possible win with a low tier againsta a top tier at high levels or it is like other games where a 8-2 or 7-3 it almost impossible matchup. thank you

 

[Konqrr]

Of course, you can win using any character.

The Liu v Scorpion matchup is so lopsided. Basically, all that Liu needs is ducking LK and there is nothing that Scorpion can do except try to time a sweep or teleport on top of Liu for an ambiguous crossup throw. Can Scorpion win? Of course he can, but it is an extremely uphill battle.

 

[AC1984]

Good job man, I saw the Kang Vs Scorpion...I think Scheiss posted it somewhere and it does look pretty nasty.