MKII Tier List Discussion

[Konqrr]

Male Ninjas can duck any jump kick/dive kick attempt and counter with an uppercut, dLP setup, sweep, or start his crossup air throw trap for chip damage, or simply run away again.

Scorpion gets a free teleport on any hat throw and a free dLP->Spear on any Lao teleport attempt.

Lao's only strength on Scorpion is to get in for jabs and the corner spin trap. He is a threat with every jump because you never know when he is going to do a dive kick so you have to blockand that sets up him getting close for jabs on characters that can't simply duck the dive kick, which Scorpion can.

I think that Scorpion has the real advantage here with his keepaway game and how he can counter Lao very very well at long range and remain far away if Lao tries to rush in with dive kicks.

Scorpion 7-3

 

[Goofart]

I say 7-3 for Lao

I echo what sushi says. Scorpion's jump in deep kick will be cancelled by a Lao ducking lk. Scorp's spear would be almost ineffective against him. From long range, duck and buffer the hat throw to whip it out after a missed scorpion spear or whiff kick. The whiff kick changes lao's pace in a match and he can cover distance quickly. Long Range = Lao

If scorpion does spear close, ducking toe or block and uppercut. If Scorp walks up fast ducking lp or lk will prevent any close up. Lao's jab pressure is also better chip damage. Scorpion has a better sweep I find (and faster repetition) but can be stuffed with the toe. Closeup = Lao

In the air they are both even. Scorp can punch+throw if he's anywhere close - even a whiff kick can be thrown. However if Scorp gets nailed with a punch first he's gonna have to eat the whiff. Air = Even

Scorpion has an advantage with the teleport. If he hits it, he can get the spear and uppercut in. If Lao jumps around too much Scorp will definitely take advantage either with a teleport or blocked whiff kick which leaves him very vulnerable. Combos/Setup = Scorpion

Corner advantage goes to lao, ducking toe or jab pressure into spin leaves scorpion helpless. Corner = Lao

 

[dubson]

From long range, duck and buffer the hat throw to whip it out after a missed scorpion spear

That would never work at long range and Scorpion would again get a free teleport against him.

And why would he throw a spear out there while he is ducking, anyway?

Scorpion may lose to Kung Lao up close, but he shuts down many of his moves and makes him have to play very careful with the dive kicks.

 

[Goofart]

That would never work at long range. Scorpion gets a free teleport against any hat throw.

And why would he throw a spear out there while he is ducking, anyway?

Scorpion may lose to Kung Lao up close, but he shuts down many of his moves and makes him have to play very careful with the dive kicks.

if i'm throwing a hat from a ducking position i cant see any one countering fast enough with a teleport unless its an anticipated teleport after 2-3 hat throws

i'm giving you a situation - if you play low with kung what is scorp going to do? and the spear can be ducked, and countered with crouching hat thrown.

 

[Konqrr]

Why would Scorpion throw out any Spear randomly up close, or even from far away unless Lao was trying something. Lao can easily hit Scorp out of a Spear if he is watching for it, even at full screen. Any time that Lao jumps, Scorpion ducks and if Lao jumps from full screen and doesn't whiff kick then he potentially eats a spear, so jumping is a bad option for Lao...all he can do is walk in to try to get close and throw hats which makes him open to teleports. Lao's teleport is a non-option due to an easy dLP->Spear combo.

Lao's hat throw comes out pretty slow and you can see it coming. It is pretty easy to scout this. Lao has to play a solid ground game against Scorpion, if he jumps too much he is going to lose.

Lao's only game against Scorpion is this:

1. Get ahead in life and duck countering with dLK's all day.
2. Get up close to chip away with his superior jabs.
3. Corner Scorpion with the inescapable Spin.

Anything else and Scorpion wins. I think maybe going 6-4 Scorpion due to Lao's mobility, but nothing less. An aggressive Scorpion will lose badly to Lao, but a patient and observant one will win.

 

[Goofart]

Why would Scorpion throw out any Spear randomly up close, or even from far away unless Lao was trying something.

That's like saying why would Lao randomly spin if he's not setting up a corner trap. If kung jumps, scorp throws a spear, Lao can whiff kick if the spear is early or block if the spear late. There's still a chance he will get speared with a badly timed jump, but the fact is he still has a chance to escape without getting hit.

 

[dubson]

if i'm throwing a hat from a ducking position i cant see any one countering fast enough with a teleport unless its an anticipated teleport after 2-3 hat throws

i'm giving you a situation - if you play low with kung what is scorp going to do? and the spear can be ducked, and countered with crouching hat thrown.

Even at full screen, after a whiffed spear, and Kung throws a ducking buffered hat, scorp has enough time to block it. That situation is completely null though, because any smart Scorpion wouldn't even throw a spear randomly like that when he is ducking... He could maybe scout the spear and dive kick over to him, but again, a smart Scorpion wouldn't even throw a spear like that.

Unless the Kung Lao player is just going to sit ducking the entire match doing ducking LK's, he is gonna have a really hard time winning. Even doing so, Scorpion is gonna try and bait him with JK -> Teleport all day, and eventually get some sweeps in there or something.

The reason Liu is so dominate against him is because Scorpion doesn't shut down any of his moves... Liu not only has the superior ducking LK, but Liu is not hindered against Scorpion in anyway, where as Kung Lao is. Kung Lao almost cannot do any of his moves against him, and has only a ducking LK to win... Kung Lao almost cannot even go toe-to-toe with Scorpion at all. If he trys to walk to him, Scorpion just keeps sweeping away and teleporting out of there.

I don't see how Kung touches Scorpion, at all. But if he does get up close (which shouldn't happen, Scorp is gonna get hurt bad).

I could see 6-4 because if the Kung player seriously just wants to sit there the entire match doing ducking LK's, it is gonna be hard for Scorpion to win too.

While on topic of Scorpion, Scheisse is set on the fact that he thinks Kitana is favored against Scorpion, which I just cannot see. I think it may be close but I honestly don't see how she gets to him either.

We have argued for hours on Scorpion vs. Kitana, he will not budge.

I spoke with Sushi for a while last night, and he agrees, aswell as Scheisse that Liu is number 1, and I have to agree.

 

[dubson]

We need some specialized Scorp/Kung players in on this.

I know Yungnicca is a very good Scorp player and uses a lot of tricks with him.

 

[Kaiba]

Scorp/Kung

In general it should be about 7-3 Scorpion, but in the hands of a player who can really use Lao its probably between 6-4 Scorp or 5-5, depends on the Scorp's player ability.

Lao has far more potential, but it takes so much practice to use him really well consistently. I've been playing different people with Lao alot lately, so much fun to hit aaSpins vs idiots!

 

[Goofart]

In terms of arsenal, Lao's also got a better out of the air uppercut than scorp and standing hk counter though they can be countered with scorp's air teleport. Even so, the most I would lean on this is 6-4 in favour of Lao. I can possibly see Liu at no. 1 or 2 and I definitely see kit over scorp. A blocked spear or teleport leaves him so vulnerable - she only needs 2 fan combos to score the win not to mention the other tools at her disposal.

 

[Goofart]

kensi and yung are top scorp players. Lee-k and Truhnic's got wicked laos.

I agree with Kaiba. Lao is very dynamic but his controls require a very precise skill to play. I rank him based on potential/performance with top players. Average Lao vs. average scorp players - i might see scorp getting more wins in.

 

[Goofart]

No fucking way Scorp wins this...
Random numbers are flying out of your asses like the Count with diarrhea.

lol


Also if both spear and hat throw happens at the same time, scorp takes the brunt of the damage.

 

[Yungnicca]

Scorpion

Scorpion wins

I love when ppl pick Kung loa vs my scorpion i rarely lose that match. I believe that scorp is on top of lao.

Many ppl try to use the jump in drop kick jump out drop kick/jump in punch and jump out punch technique with kung loa cause ppl dont know how to time it.Just like certain ppl don't know how to time lui kang or baraka drop kick. I've got it down pack when to round house kung loa drop kick or punch.

Also when kung loa disappears he's open to a spear everytime. Everytime Kung loa throws the hat at the end of the screen he's open for a disappear attack. Everyime kung loa throws the hat close up he's open for a high kick in the mouth.Everytime kung loa does his spinning attack he's open for a spear.Everytime he does is flying special kick he's open for a 2 punch spear combo.

Best way to beat scorpion is to stay low.Even tho the low toe is scorpion weakness ppl try to use it to much against him when all you have to do is jump over them time it right and do a drop kick spear combo works everytime.

Only thing with scorpion when he throws that spear and it extends out his hands he's open for a counter with close combat.

 

[Konqrr]

You guys act like that TP scenario is worth a fuck and Scorp just disappears after he hits Lao with it during a hat toss. 9 times out of 10 Scorp will take MORE damage after landing a successful hat toss counter TP against Kung Lao.

When the TP hits Lao, Scorp is almost half screen away and he just simply walks backwards to safety again. Is Lao just going to dLK all day? It's that or take a huge risk to get in fast with a dive kick.

The only way to get this thing to be as accurate as possible is to discuss it assuming that both players are playing at the highest level, not making stupid mistakes. Imagine playing yourself.

Don't let this get personal, I don't care who is better than who, I am only sharing what I believe to be fact.

Here's the current grid, still WAY open for discussion, so please do so kindly:

 

[HatmanSTL]

Yikes.
Kitana 2-8 vs. Jax? 3-7 vs Liu? 2-8 vs. Mileena? 3-7 vs. Scorpion?

Ouch.

While I agree that Kitana has a few disadvantageous matchups, I strongly disagree that they're any worse than a 4 in any of them.

My thoughts (and I'll explain when I get a chance tomorrow):
Kitana 4-6 or even 5-5 vs. Jax.
Kitana 4-6 possibly 5-5 vs. Liu.
Kitana 4-6 vs. Mileena.
Kitana 5-5 vs. Scorpion.

As far as Reptile goes, I do agree on paper that he's the worst in the game, no question. Mediocre normals, annoying but weak projectile, situational Force Ball, high risk and low reward slide. His saving grace is invisibility, which is probably the most player dependent skill in the entire game. Poorly used, he seems like garbage. Competently used, he can seem very solid, even strong in most (not all) matchups. It's probably the only special move in the game that doesn't rate properly on paper at all.

Anyway, interesting discussion. I'll elaborate later.

 

[Konqrr]

Kitana's game revolves very highly on her getting in close. Jax and Mileena destroy her. Scorpion wins if he can keep away, all he has to do is get a life lead and run because if she jumps, Scorp can aaRH or teleport->spear.

Once she is close though, she has the major advantage, but it's getting there...

Liu Kang dLK her sweeps, has low fire/uppercut mixups. Plus his jump back punch hits her out of her square wave, it's a difficult matchup for her.

 

[Konqrr]

I wonder how we should factor in the corner jab infinites...Lao, Baraka, and Cage have the HP version that once started there is nothing you can do until you die. The other characters have the LP version but is much harder to setup.

Male Ninjas, Jax, and Raiden are the most at risk to this...especially against Shang's LP pressure.

Once you get the timing down, there is no pushback and no escape.

This, of course, is only effective if your opponent is in the corner actively blocking either high or low, but once they are in a high block or a low block and they release block to try to duck they sell the punches standing and can't duck anymore. The big characters, Jax and Raiden, get hit even while ducking and not blocking so they are at a huge disadvantage and are forced to try to escape as quickly as possible before getting jabbed or to use a ducking LP/LK or wakeup uppercut to create some space.

Perhaps with this in mind, Lao has a huge edge on Scorpion as he can use some tricks to trap him in the corner and setup the spin or jab infinite. But then Baraka's tier placement is in question due to this and he will have a huge advantage on a cornered opponent because they cannot jump at him.

DISCUSS!!!

I'll post some vids of this and even show you on the PS3/MAME if you want or if you don't believe it.

 

[Konqrr]

Another thought on Baraka against everyone except a ducking Cage or Shang, is when he lands a cornered JK he is free to do a Blade Fury 100% safe, so if your opponent is expecting this, they will try to block the Blades and Baraka has a 50/50 with the Blade Fury or doing a LP->HP to start the infinite! This raises Baraka's potential tenfold.

 

[coNsPirAcy]

Lao does not beat Scorpion but that doesnt mean Scorp gets a free win. The matchup is 6 - 4 in Scorpions favor. Reasons were stated before so i dont need to go into them. Scorpion controls the match unless he (or rather the player) is dumb enough to get himself in the corner. Scorp has tons of safe teleport options. (Kensi is the best at this) And even then, if Scorpion is ahead on life, there isnt much Lao can do until he gets ahead on life. And if Lao thinks he can teleport, that is an EASY d+lp ~ spear. Every char can punish Laos teleport with no risk on reaction cept Scorpion gets the easiest and biggest reward. And if your reactions good enough, he teleports, Scorp does AA-death punch, teleport, spear, uppercut. Not pretty. Offline, every char can get either death punch or uppercut. Online, it you catch it late, just d+hk.

Also, the killer toe isnt something to be feared. I dunno why alot of you think its a automatic ninja killer. Its not. Now, theres a "sweet spot" where if Kang (im using Kang as an example since Laos toe is easy to deal with) tries to mixup d+lk or low fireball, the sweep beats both options. It beats both options because all Scorp has to do is stand in the sweet spot, and wait. He sticks out d+lk? Whiff and sweep. As long as he catches the limb sticking out (no time before otherwise the d+lk will win), he will get swept. And even if you mess up the timing, Kang will be forced to block since the sweep will beat any next option. (d+lp, d+lk, fireball) Low fireball? Easy block, sweep punish. The sweet spot applies to Lao as well.

Now, it is a little tough to get used to the online timing of this but once you do, its pretty easy. Offline the killer toe isnt much.

Or if youre using Jax, Shang, Cage, or Raiden, use magic throw against it.

Konqrr, youve experienced the sweet spot when we played last.

Hatgrill - Im gonna say Kitana vs Jax 4 - 6 Jax. Lets discuss.

 

[HatmanSTL]

Okay, as promised, my reasoning.

Ordinarily I would agree with Konqrr that Kitana's hard matches are worse than what I feel they are, mostly due to characters with strong keep outs just outside of her sweep range (Jax, Liu, Scorp come to mind). Square Wave is ok but still does little to combat the strong outside sweep range position the above characters have to keep her offense at bay. However, there exists a technique to help alleviate that problem.

I guess I'll call it Hop Fan.

Most Kitana players release air fans anywhere from shortly after the apex of her jump to when she's about to land. Works ok, great for combos, but not difficult to react to and has limited setups. Hop Fan changes that quite a bit. It's pretty obvious what it is; simply a short u/f, u, or u/b jump off the ground into an air fan, well before she even reaches the apex of her jump. The significance of this is two-fold, so I suppose I'll nerd it up and analyze what it does for those that haven't faced it (and I'm not trying to insult intelligence or anything here, so bare with me):

1. Gives her a Mileena-like quality like the dreaded Hop Sai. The difference is that while Kitana's fan releases quickly, it's a bit slower and has a thick, nasty hitbox. Unlike Mileena however, Kitana uses this to move in those crucial half or full steps when she lands, while Mileena tends to move or leap back. I suppose it works in the vein of UMK3 Kitana air fan into run; except in a far more subtle manner.
2. Allows constant 33% damage scenarios against most of the characters in the game. Short hops in any direction where she wins the air-to-air battle should almost always lead to the air fan being tacked on, giving her Jax j/k, backbreaker damage but with slightly better range. Gives opponents that have great air moves or even air throws pause since her air normals have very high priority. Against tall characters (pretty much everyone but Liu, Shang, and the bitches) a hop kick when they're grounded will allow the air fan to connect for 33%.

What makes it work is that it's CRUCIAL for getting in on opponents. Hop Fan can be predicted and countered, but it cannot be reacted to. By the time you see it when it's unexpected, it forces that small hesitation...enough for her to walk in that crucial half or full step into her range, countering the constant keep-out space. When people start getting used to it, now she can mix it with Square Wave; full, blatant jumps with an attack or without (for better landing recovery to put on the pokes); or by blatantly walking into range which makes it SIGNIFICANTLY easier for her to get in. As MGP and MBK raised the potential of Jax and Liu from great to godly, Kitana NEEDS this ability to be competitive in not only those matches but against any top tier or otherwise difficult match and I feel it must be VERY consistent. Without it, I agree that those matches are about as bad as Konqrr says.

With that in mind, now to the match-ups...

 

[Vassago187]

Or if youre using Jax, Shang, Cage, or Raiden, use magic throw against it.
.

what's this "magic throw"? I"ve heard it mentioned, I may have seen it but I might just not know it by that name.

 

[coNsPirAcy]

Magic throw is when your opponent attempts a poke and although you take damage, you will throw them even if they are holding back to avoid a throw. Jax, Cage, Shang, and Raiden have them. Lao has a magic throw as well but its hard to do with him for some reason. In anycase, it will "trade" (in the throwers favor) with just pokes. Anything like roundhouse, uppercut, projectile etc it will beat clean. But only with the aforementioned chars.

 

[dubson]

He said using the death punch... noone in their right mind is going to try and aaHP Kung Lao.

 

[coNsPirAcy]

Eh? I dont think you completely understood what i was saying...

When i said AA-death punch, i meant when he does the teleport, and its not that hard to punish on reaction. Feel free to try it yourself on Mame, PS3, whatever you use. Lao jumping/dive kicks arent really a threat to anyone unless they are trying to move around. Im pretty sure all Scorp players (kensi, yungnicca, slipkicks, dvdcsn, etc) will agree with me when i say Scorp doesnt need to jump at all in this matchup. Laos d+hk is a non issue cause Scorp doesnt need to jump.

As for the whole killer toe thing, you missed my entire point on the sweep spot. Laos KT has a much bigger hitbox and recovery to punish on whiff than Kang and the sweep will hit if you as you jump back if you try to insta-dive due to his recovery. This isnt a issue with Kang because he has no dive kick which forces him to block. As stated before in my previous post, Kang will be forced to block since the sweep will beat any next option. (d+lp, d+lk, fireball) This includes jumping as well since the sweep will knock him on startup like Lao if he tries insta-dive afterward. Read my post again on the sweep spot. It applies to both Lao and Kang. This maybe a little hard for you to believe but it does exist and is an actual tactic.

So, now we move to hat throw. Sure you can throw it from a distance but i block and due to his recovery, i get to move in. Granted, its a few steps but it makes all the difference. Whats Lao gonna do? Empty jump? Insta-dive? Thats where d+lp comes into play. (On a side note, i always thought that whole empty jumping tactic is hilarious) Easy to time just as hes about to land and Lao is forced to block and we all know that poke blocked leads to ugly situations since it gives really good advantage.

Feel free to add more for debate if necessary. I would like to hear from other Scorp players about this matchup assessment.

 

[HatmanSTL]

Kitana vs. Jax:

I believe that this is a 5-5 match-up. Jax has a slight advantage in open space; Kitana has the slight advantage when Jax is cornered. Actually, I'd say it's more 4.5-5.5 (if that's allowed) in Jax's favor for one major reason: there's more open space than there are corners, and matches always start in the open.

In the open:
Jax dictates the pace with spacing, Golden Punching, aaHK, and GP/MGP. Errant jumps are countered with aaHK or Air Wave; big mistakes with hop kick, backbreaker; all the way covering his tracks with defensive GP/MGP. He keeps her out with ducking LP or sometimes ducking HK and even blatant standing HK. Kitana also can be attacked with turnaround j/k and jabs into GP for pure offense if she gets too close and is put on the defensive.

Kitana counters the range game by risking the jump more often than most characters because the reward is an absolutely retarded game changing 60% combo. GP and even MGP can be risky because nobody punishes it harder than her when he's wrong. Kitana breaks the spacing game with Hop Fan to get in, using her sweep/jabs/fan swipe/vertical j/p (on the way down) to chip at Jax. Whiffed ducking LP can be swept. Sweep can also beat GP when released too closely to her and big mistake GP can be hit by hop kick, air fan for 33%. Golden Punches can be countered by sweet spot fan swipes (which chip Jax out of his jab range w/o pushing him back). Jumps by Jax intending on chipping with turnaround j/k or j/k, backbreaker etc. stuff can be countered by an early u/b kick/punch to Hop Fan. Fan Toss from crouch can be used to attempt to trade with Air Wave abuse in her favor.

All in all, in the open Jax generally forces some kind of risk on Kitana (however slight) or she takes damage. Even if she plays without risk, she's gonna eat at least a couple or 3 GPs before getting to move in and play her game in her ideal territory (corner). The good thing is that GP by itself isn't much damage and even taking 3 of them is not far from being equalized, but generally Jax is going to be ahead on life in the beginning and it's up to Kitana to make that up with vicious pressure and sick combos. Either way, if the game stays out in the open long enough, Jax eventually sends her to the kitchen to make him a damn sandwich. Advantage: Jax.

In the corner:
Kitana takes advantage of his huge sprite and gets to chip and beat on him all day with jabs, sweeps, swipes and the like because now there's nowhere left to jump or back away to. Negotiating sweep tip range, she's at ideal space to horribly counter most everything he does to attack her or get out. Sweeps to whiff punish and beat GPs and the like are much easier now; ill-advised attempts to jump out risk round ending Fan Lifts or vertical j/p or j/k to air fan. Blocking in fear leads to enormous amounts of jab games and chip damage. Even if he does manage to leap over her, Kitana can immediately Square Wave over him which puts him back near the corner once again to continue the abuse.

Jax, while in a shitty position in the corner, still isn't out for the count yet. He can counter by abusing the priority of his j/k by jumping back repeatedly in the corner to attack overzealous offense; mix wise, careful use of ducking LP and and GP; and use the quick start-up of Air Wave to smack her in the face if she closes at the wrong time. If all else fails, blatant standing HK range can hit her out of the beginning frames of her sweep or if she gets careless closing in.

Obviously, Kitana is in a strong position if Jax is cornered due to her great normals and attempts to get out can be horribly punished or negated if she crosses right back over with a Square Wave should he get over her head. Still, if he has done enough damage to her in the open by the time he's put in the corner, he may only need a few hits to seal the deal before she chips his life to nothing. Usually though, if the match ends up here for any significant length of time, Kitana makes Jax do the dishes while she gets to watch her soaps. Advantage: Kitana.