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MK11 SHANG TSUNG Discussion

SparkySanders

You task a thunder dawg
Sorry if you know this already, but f243 KB and f4 KB are actually two requirements for the same KB. If you land f243 KB , you won’t be able to do f4 KB and the opposite is true as well. F243 KB is much more practical so just do that)
I thought f243 kb was activated on a punish/ counter and f4 was its own kb activated by specifically punishing a roll? I wanna try this out when I get off work.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
Hi!

I "discovered" (at least never saw it) something labbing last week Spellmaster variation.

If you use the soul vessel (DB2) in a combo, you just heal instead of releasing the vessel.

I don't think it's very useful, coz the recovery is very long, but I think it's interesting....
Dude I've been having that happen to me a lot and I thought it was a random glitch but it seems you are right. When you cancel into Soul Vessal you get the heal even if the jar isn't out. It wasn't always like this, right?

It doesn't seem to be very useful, although you can probably get a safe heal in most matchups by ending a KB combo with something like 1, 1, 4~DB2 for around 200 damage and a 40 hp heal. Or since you can't get any good damage from an U2, you could do the same and get 130 damage with a 40 hp heal. It leaves you minus enough that some characters will have an easy punish but it could be usable.

I wonder if it's just a bug though.
 

Cobainevermind87

Mid-match beer sipper
I thought f243 kb was activated on a punish/ counter and f4 was its own kb activated by specifically punishing a roll? I wanna try this out when I get off work.
You are correct, but if you have hit the counter/punish f243 kb, the f4 kb for punishing a roll won't trigger and vice versa. It's weird. Two totally different KBs but you can only use one. I guess cuz NRS used the same animation for both.
 

Inzzane_79

Oooohh Daaaammmn
Premium Supporter
You are correct, but if you have hit the counter/punish f243 kb, the f4 kb for punishing a roll won't trigger and vice versa. It's weird. Two totally different KBs but you can only use one. I guess cuz NRS used the same animation for both.
Interesting, now, was this intentional or is it a bug? Not that I would ever land that roll punish F4 KB ever in my life in a real match but still would be nice to know if it´s a bug or not :)
 

Cobainevermind87

Mid-match beer sipper
Interesting, now, was this intentional or is it a bug? Not that I would ever land that roll punish F4 KB ever in my life in a real match but still would be nice to know if it´s a bug or not :)
That's a great question. I'm not sure if it's just a coding error where the game simply refuses to play the animation again, or if it's because NRS changed their minds after the fact and decided it would make them look dumb to have a character perform 2 different KBs that resulted in the same animation.

Do any other characters have two different KBs that result in the same animation?
 

Agilaz

#ShangLivesMatter
Premium Supporter
As time goes on I'm convinced Shang is lower and lower.

He cannot compete in terms of damage, everything he does well is done better by others, morph is an absolute death trap and he only has one good variation (warlock) with soul eater being passable and spellmaster flat out useless.

I have tried to make this character work, every single person rates him A+ in their tier list but im just not seeing it. If he gets no buffs next patch I'm dropping him and NRS can go fuck themselves, not gonna buy their next game. I'm completely fed up of always having my characters be completely outclassed because NRS balances using their Wheel of Chaos
 

kcd117

Noob
As time goes on I'm convinced Shang is lower and lower.

He cannot compete in terms of damage, everything he does well is done better by others, morph is an absolute death trap and he only has one good variation (warlock) with soul eater being passable and spellmaster flat out useless.

I have tried to make this character work, every single person rates him A+ in their tier list but im just not seeing it. If he gets no buffs next patch I'm dropping him and NRS can go fuck themselves, not gonna buy their next game. I'm completely fed up of always having my characters be completely outclassed because NRS balances using their Wheel of Chaos
He is bad and people upplay him like crazy. He's not getting buffed, nor is he getting fixed. We're two patches in and Geras, Liu, Cetrion and Sub are still the same stupid characters they've been since day 1 so I assume his unplayable matchups are also staying unchanged until the end of this game's lifespan. With that in mind, he is not worth the effort.

No Shang player is ever beating a half-competent player with any of the characters I mentioned above no matter who it is. No Shang player has ever gotten any results by using Shang alone (me included) and no Shang player ever will bc you simply can't pick a character that loses to the entire top 10, go to a tournament and expect that all the entrants who are pro players and live off of their tournament results will pick the low tier characters they love bc they feel like playing for smiles. You factor that with the fact that it takes around 4 minutes for you to teach a chimpanzee how to play Geras at a tournament level and the character simply rapes Shang in all possible ways and you have a character you simply can't rely on.

As a competitive player, I moved away from him save for a few matchups like Jade and Terminator, and you should too, if you care about winning.
 

Agilaz

#ShangLivesMatter
Premium Supporter
He is bad and people upplay him like crazy. He's not getting buffed, nor is he getting fixed. We're two patches in and Geras, Liu, Cetrion and Sub are still the same stupid characters they've been since day 1 so I assume his unplayable matchups are also staying unchanged until the end of this game's lifespan. With that in mind, he is not worth the effort.

No Shang player is ever beating a half-competent player with any of the characters I mentioned above no matter who it is. No Shang player has ever gotten any results by using Shang alone (me included) and no Shang player ever will bc you simply can't pick a character that loses to the entire top 10, go to a tournament and expect that all the entrants who are pro players and live off of their tournament results will pick the low tier characters they love bc they feel like playing for smiles. You factor that with the fact that it takes around 4 minutes for you to teach a chimpanzee how to play Geras at a tournament level and the character simply rapes Shang in all possible ways and you have a character you simply can't rely on.

As a competitive player, I moved away from him save for a few matchups like Jade and Terminator, and you should too, if you care about winning.
What's worse is that on paper, he's not terrible. He doesnt need much to be viable. Hell I would argue that reversing the huge unjustified nerf would be enough cause then ground skulls could make opponents afraid again.

I'm not a huge tournament player. We don't really have much of an offline scene here, and my age and responsibilities prohibit me from going all in on this game, but I like to attend something if I can. So winning isn't THAT important in the long run. I think above all I'm just disappointed that yet again, my favourite character in the cast has to struggle.

I hope Sindel gives me good vibes when they show her. Otherwise I'll probably go for Baraka and Noob.
 

kcd117

Noob
What's worse is that on paper, he's not terrible. He doesnt need much to be viable. Hell I would argue that reversing the huge unjustified nerf would be enough cause then ground skulls could make opponents afraid again.

I'm not a huge tournament player. We don't really have much of an offline scene here, and my age and responsibilities prohibit me from going all in on this game, but I like to attend something if I can. So winning isn't THAT important in the long run. I think above all I'm just disappointed that yet again, my favourite character in the cast has to struggle.

I hope Sindel gives me good vibes when they show her. Otherwise I'll probably go for Baraka and Noob.
SInce they butchered his dmg in V1 I’d simply like them to give him some decent V2 that can maybe not get outzoned by half of the cast and effectively have a playstyle and V3 where losing his best move (corpse drop) is justified by gaining more dmg and access to moves that are actually working instead of a slide that makes the amp part whiffs when you meet the requirement of the KB or a mid superkick that doesn’t whiff on crouch blocking/neutral ducking opponents, and who knows, maybe a shake that doesn’t startup in 3 days when you are trying to react to a projectile and a lift that actually does dmg instead of hitting people with a pillow.
 

Zubro

Noob
Are there any spellmaster mains around? I just picked him up last night and went in KL and had an abysmal record. Any tips or tricks? I was getting hella outzoned. How good are the cancels? I found f24 bf1 cancel b1d2 was a useful gimmick for getting the KB. Any other useful cancel gimmicks? Df3 cancel seems useless.
 

Marinjuana

Up rock incoming, ETA 5 minutes
Are there any Spellmaster mains around? I just picked him up last night and went in KL and had an abysmal record. Any tips or tricks? I was getting hella outzoned. How good are the cancels? I found f24 bf1 cancel b1d2 was a useful gimmick for getting the KB. Any other useful cancel gimmicks? Df3 cancel seems useless.
Some characters can zone him out well but BF1 trades well because of the knockdown and BF1 Amp can go under some projectiles so it really depends on the matchup. Normal Johnny forceballs are a good example of where BF1 Amp can make a big difference.

F24~BF1 Cancel is probably his best one, leaves him slightly closer for a throw or pressure and people are conditioned to block against that string because of F242. I also like to use 3U2~BF1 Cancel sometimes. The cancel can be used in neutral sometimes too, the meter comes back fast.

Crashing Flames second hit has a flawless block gap but it's really specific with matchups and spacing as to when that gap can actually be abused. TBH, most people don't have that kind of matchup knowledge to abuse the gaps, but it's good to avoid doing stuff like B11~DB1 on block because then you are asking for it.

More on Flames, F24~DB1 Amp has good pushback and 3U2~DB1 Amp even more so you'll can more confidently use those on block. Flames is also a solid zoning tool with much better frame data at distance, even without the amplified hit. The move can be good on oki because of the multiple hits and safety, like you can potentially catch them rolling, punish their wakeup option and be safe on block with it if your timing and spacing is good. Crashing Flames Amp does a lot of chip damage and it leaves you at a range where you can check the opponent with Soul Steal, so you get a bit of a mind game there.

Speaking of Soul Steal, it's important to use this move in this variation to check people, to help gain respect for the rest of your kit at that range, to zone, to punish, etc. It opens up F4, neutral DB1, F2/B1 pressure, all that jazz. Be ready to morph into the opponent and don't be afraid to play safer to just get out of the morph.

Soul Jar is matchup dependent but usually pretty good to throw that out after a DB1 Amp on hit, which can be cashed out should you land another good hit or if you make the right moves in neutral, like if you hit them cleanly with BF1 then maybe steal your heal. It's a nice thing sometimes but don't die using it. It's pretty much useless in the corner. When you special cancel into this move you get a 40 HP heal even without Jar out, which might be useful in U2 combos because the damage is low.

Having good movement is important for pressuring the opponent after DB1 Amp, you can get limited oki from it and being able to maintain pressure rather than just always going back to zoning is important. F4 and Soul Steal are good options but try not to be over zealous.

114~DB1 Amp doesn't connect midscreen but it does in the corner. B1 is a great stagger. I like to use DF3 on block sometimes despite the gap because of the safety and pushback, B11~DF3 in particular. D4~DB1 Amp is a good panic button. DF3 Amp is a luxury move but throw it at the occasional grasshopper Lao to knock them out of the sky.

Combos:

3U3~DB1 Amp
B12(KB), dash~1, B11~DB1 Amp
D2(KB), dash~11, B11~DB1 Amp
 
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haketh

Noob
I would find Spellmaster so baller if Scattering Souls would get replaced with Exploding Corpses if they aren't gonna buff the startup on it
 

Zubro

Noob
Some characters can zone him out well but BF1 trades well because of the knockdown and BF1 Amp can go under some projectiles so it really depends on the matchup. Normal Johnny forceballs are a good example of where BF1 Amp can make a big difference.

F24~BF1 Cancel is probably his best one, leaves him slightly closer for a throw or pressure and people are conditioned to block against that string because of F242. I also like to use 3U2~BF1 Cancel sometimes. The cancel can be used in neutral sometimes too, the meter comes back fast.

Crashing Flames second hit has a flawless block gap but it's really specific with matchups and spacing as to when that gap can actually be abused. TBH, most people don't have that kind of matchup knowledge to abuse the gaps, but it's good to avoid doing stuff like B11~DB1 on block because then you are asking for it.

More on Flames, F24~DB1 Amp has good pushback and 3U2~DB1 Amp even more so you'll can more confidently use those on block. Flames is also a solid zoning tool with much better frame data at distance, even without the amplified hit. The move can be good on oki because of the multiple hits and safety, like you can potentially catch them rolling, punish their wakeup option and be safe on block with it if your timing and spacing is good. Crashing Flames Amp does a lot of chip damage and it leaves you at a range where you can check the opponent with Soul Steal, so you get a bit of a mind game there.

Speaking of Soul Steal, it's important to use this move in this variation to check people, to help gain respect for the rest of your kit at that range, to zone, to punish, etc. It opens up F4, neutral DB1, F2/B1 pressure, all that jazz. Be ready to morph into the opponent and don't be afraid to play safer to just get out of the morph.

Soul Jar is matchup dependent but usually pretty good to throw that out after a DB1 Amp on hit, which can be cashed out should you land another good hit or if you make the right moves in neutral, like if you hit them cleanly with BF1 then maybe steal your heal. It's a nice thing sometimes but don't die using it. It's pretty much useless in the corner. When you special cancel into this move you get a 40 HP heal even without Jar out, which might be useful in U2 combos because the damage is low.

Having good movement is important for pressuring the opponent after DB1 Amp, you can get limited oki from it and being able to maintain pressure rather than just always going back to zoning is important. F4 and Soul Steal are good options but try not to be over zealous.

114~DB1 Amp doesn't connect midscreen but it does in the corner. B1 is a great stagger. I like to use DF3 on block sometimes despite the gap because of the safety and pushback, B11~DF3 in particular. D4~DB1 Amp is a good panic button. DF3 Amp is a luxury move but throw it at the occasional grasshopper Lao to knock them out of the sky.

Combos:

3U3~DB1 Amp
B12(KB), dash~1, B11~DB1 Amp
D2(KB), dash~11, B11~DB1 Amp
Good stuff. Thanks
I’m hesitate using soul steal because I suck with a lot of characters. But it seems to have good active frames. Do you just hang back and zone afterwards? I usually try for a swag combo if I know the character but then get punished for dropping it. It’s seems pretty high risk.
 

Agilaz

#ShangLivesMatter
Premium Supporter
Good stuff. Thanks
I’m hesitate using soul steal because I suck with a lot of characters. But it seems to have good active frames. Do you just hang back and zone afterwards? I usually try for a swag combo if I know the character but then get punished for dropping it. It’s seems pretty high risk.
Take some time to learn what the most common KB's are for each character. You can use your morph time to load it up (for example do a simple jade combo ending in nitro kick, next time you morph the KB will be loaded) or just throw them.

Some characters have strings with grab extensions. Shao's F34,1+3 or Geras' 111,1+3 for example. These do around 200dmg normally, so they're good options when you're morphed.

Zoning is an option too, since you'll straight up win trades due to dmg buff.

Morph is risky but not entirely useless. Play around in training mode and see what you can find.