Make Wonder Woman Great Again! Just like her new movie!

[evolution07]

Injustice is my first game in the series. Idk much about the lore. I never really got into it when I was younger but it has peaked my interest with the release of this game.

I know in the original game she had good meterless damage, air dash and other options.

I'm not too sure why they took her air dash away and put it as a trait option, as it's a big staple in her default moveset.

I'd personally like to see her being able to control her trait just like many other characters are able to do so. Why did Harley players get a nice trait but WW gets the random buff?

They should remove the bracelet buff trait and have it as a default option when she uses it in the neutral. Give her back air dash, faster low option (F2) so she has a good meterless combo, and a faster D3.

I love the character and playstyle. Coming from being a kitana main, controlling the neutral is huge for me. WW has great midscreen control and even better corner game. She doesn't need to be overly buffed, but a slight tweak to her moveset would help her out quite a bit.

 

[Marlow]

Why should comic book lore be used to justify how strong a character is in a fighting game? Let comics be comics and games be games. I'm fine with WW how she is. I'd rather focus on playing her with the toolset she has than spend time wishing for buffs. If I want those buffs for WW, I'll just find a character who already has those moves and play that character.

 

[Ryu Hayabusa]

Why should comic book lore be used to justify how strong a character is in a fighting game? Let comics be comics and games be games. I'm fine with WW how she is. I'd rather focus on playing her with the toolset she has than spend time wishing for buffs. If I want those buffs for WW, I'll just find a character who already has those moves and play that character.

Comic book lore is reason why characters got moves they have comics. Some characters have more abilities than they normally do in comics. Most of us are not asking for damage buff here, what we are saying let her parry reflect projectiles and default air-dash like she does in comics. This has nothing to do with damage buff or how strong she is lore wise.

 

[Stanlos]

Why should comic book lore be used to justify how strong a character is in a fighting game? Let comics be comics and games be games. I'm fine with WW how she is. I'd rather focus on playing her with the toolset she has than spend time wishing for buffs. If I want those buffs for WW, I'll just find a character who already has those moves and play that character.

If you picked up this game, selected Superman, and he had no heat vision and was limited to punches that did the least damage in the game would that register as odd to you? Or fall outside expectation?

 

[Lex Luthor II]

If you picked up this game, selected Superman, and he had no heat vision and was limited to punches that did the least damage in the game would that register as odd to you? Or fall outside expectation?

Amen, its like if he had no heat vision, couldnt fly, no air dash, no mobility, no hit confirmable strings.

 

[CompleteMadness]

Lol people suggesting buffs because lore. If we go by lore Darkseid's omega beams would be un-dodgeable/un-blockable!

 

[Stanlos]

Lol people suggesting buffs because lore. If we go by lore Darkseid's omega beams would be un-dodgeable/un-blockable!

I am out right now but when I get to my laptop I am going to blow you up with scans because no. Lore would enable WW to send the beams back to his face

 

[Lex Luthor II]

Lol people suggesting buffs because lore. If we go by lore Darkseid's omega beams would be un-dodgeable/un-blockable!

Bad argument. Things sacrificed for the sake of gameplay. But WoWos stuff wasnt sacrificed for gameplay, she had her stuff, so does Superman, and it worked.

kthx

 

[Ryu Hayabusa]

Lol people suggesting buffs because lore. If we go by lore Darkseid's omega beams would be un-dodgeable/un-blockable!

No they aren't.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I am out right now but when I get to my laptop I am going to blow you up with scans because no. Lore would enable WW to send the beams back to his face

Yeah I think even Batman dodged them once too

 

[Gooberking]

I noticed this guy wants us to vote against our own interests. If someone really thinks projectile reflecting parry isn't going to help then I don't know what to say to that person.

Yeah, sorry but I'm one of those people too. I pretty strongly suspect altering her parry to be a reflect would very much damage the character more than anything anyone has suggested.

Reflect is paltry damage that really only serves to police the same screen space as her shield toss. There could be some utility in gaining extra horizontal space in order to have some kind of help at max range, but beyond that I don't think there is anything of value to gain from a reflect. On the loss side you can't nullify the wide range of physical moves, and you lose out on full combo punishes on a read or on guaranteed gap punishes. Her potential off of parry is huge compared to reflects and typical parrys, and it's a hell of a lot more satisfying and mentally stimulating that a basic reflect.

I totally get the idea that the character has a very suggestive history concerning this that probably should have been better honored at design time, but at this point I think it would need to be one hell of a reflect to make up for what she would be losing in the trade. It might make her more accessible/simpler which can help a character on occasion as a byproduct, but that's situational and I'm not sure that this is that situation.

I could totally be wrong, but I feel like the implications are way more serious that people are thinking and impact her in a way that would, at the very least, reduce my interest in her. It's just unconfirmable speculation, but I can't not put the idea out there with so much vocalization on changing something I think is working.

 

[Ryu Hayabusa]

The more I think about it the more problems I see with this character.

Meter burn moves usually have 2 of 3 main properties.

Safe
Armor
Combo after the move

Wonder Woman currently has only 1 main property on most of her special moves.


She could benefit from armor on meter burn shield bash and combo after when you meter burn lasso.

I know they are not going to change meter burn lasso to her tying up opponent for follow up attack instead of her throwing away her opponent.

What they can do is allow her to throw her opponent up in the air after meter burn lasso so you can continue the combo after instead of throwing them away. It would be a great change her to bland moveset and it would allow her to open up her opponent.

 

[Stanlos]

Soooooooooooo from the sound of things in the thread it sounds like there may be an NRS thing that a parry and a reflect are different things and so my suggestion that her bracelets parry should return projectiles is a really big deal and a no-no. I am admittedly a relative newb to NRS games so I don't knew anything about those rules/structures but I do know about WW and I don't understand why the deviation in approach in adapting her as opposed to adapting the others.

I also don't understand why there would be such a restriction given the bizarre kits already existing in the game. Deadshot can fire away and pretty much eat your life bar on the way in. Then when you do get in, he can instantly send you right back across the screen with one wakeup. So I hope the answer isn't 'balance'.

I noted that in some of the character descriptions in the Tutorial they describe some characters as 'Well Rounded" or "Excelling in X"; why would not be among the versatile/well rounded characters in the cast given that she is the most versatile of the cast in the source material?

 

[Gooberking]

Soooooooooooo from the sound of things in the thread it sounds like there may be an NRS thing that a parry and a reflect are different things and so my suggestion that her bracelets parry should return projectiles is a really big deal and a no-no. I am admittedly a relative newb to NRS games so I don't knew anything about those rules/structures but I do know about WW and I don't understand why the deviation in approach in adapting her as opposed to adapting the others.

I also don't understand why there would be such a restriction given the bizarre kits already existing in the game. Deadshot can fire away and pretty much eat your life bar on the way in. Then when you do get in, he can instantly send you right back across the screen with one wakeup. So I hope the answer isn't 'balance'.

I noted that in some of the character descriptions in the Tutorial they describe some characters as 'Well Rounded" or "Excelling in X"; why would not be among the versatile/well rounded characters in the cast given that she is the most versatile of the cast in the source material?

I'm not sure there are any really no-no's, but I'm not aware of if there is an example of an NRS reflect + parry and most parrys have far less damage potential than WW's does currently. I don't think any other player's community is going to OK with her parry having both full combo potential and a reflect property regardless of it being OP or not. They might consider a more standard parry with reflect properties something acceptable given who she is, but then her parry starts to look a lot more like everyone else's. Right now hers is actually a bit unique among the cast I think. I admittedly only know things about WW, so I may be wrong on that, but all of the other parrys I know of just auto deal some small damage. It's easier and more reliable, but then there is that loss of potential. Parry properties would probably just end up being like everyone else's if they were willing to add a reflect + parry.

There were probably some reflect options like stunning, blood loss DOT, and knock down explosions that might have better synced with lore and been worth exploring when conceiving the current design instead of going the parry route. It gets harder to make a fundamental adjustments once a game is out. That doesn't mean it doesn't get done (Think KI had some significant character rework between seasons) it's just harder, and I think there are lots of less invasive options to try and help her out that wouldn't be as at risk for destabilizing her basic game plan. That's just my opinion and I pretty much suck so take that however you like.

 

[Stanlos]

I'm not sure there are any really no-no's, but I'm not aware of if there is an example of an NRS reflect + parry and most parrys have far less damage potential than WW's does currently. I don't think any other player's community is going to OK with her parry having both full combo potential and a reflect property regardless of it being OP or not. They might consider a more standard parry with reflect properties something acceptable given who she is, but then her parry starts to look a lot more like everyone else's. Right now hers is actually a bit unique among the cast I think. I admittedly only know things about WW, so I may be wrong on that, but all of the other parrys I know of just auto deal some small damage. It's easier and more reliable, but then there is that loss of potential. Parry properties would probably just end up being like everyone else's if they were willing to add a reflect + parry.

There were probably some reflect options like stunning, blood loss DOT, and knock down explosions that might have better synced with lore and been worth exploring when conceiving the current design instead of going the parry route. It gets harder to make a fundamental adjustments once a game is out. That doesn't mean it doesn't get done (Think KI had some significant character rework between seasons) it's just harder, and I think there are lots of less invasive options to try and help her out that wouldn't be as at risk for destabilizing her basic game plan. That's just my opinion and I pretty much suck so take that however you like.

Thanks for taking the time to explain your position Gooberking and shed some light on why reflect and parry combo might be objectionable. I value the discussion because I don't have familiarity with NRS properties outside IGAU.

 

[ILuvFightGames]

I just wished her shield traveled full screen.

 

[Stanlos]

I just wished her shield traveled full screen.

I think I have a better idea of why the reflect is problematic (I don't share the opinion but I understand the underpinnings a bit better) but why no full screen presence and poor mobility?

 

[Ryu Hayabusa]

Yeah, sorry but I'm one of those people too. I pretty strongly suspect altering her parry to be a reflect would very much damage the character more than anything anyone has suggested.

Reflect is paltry damage that really only serves to police the same screen space as her shield toss. There could be some utility in gaining extra horizontal space in order to have some kind of help at max range, but beyond that I don't think there is anything of value to gain from a reflect. .

Shield toss doesn't go full screen and it's highly punishable. If you get hit by projectile shield toss disappears before reaching opponent. It can't be used to trade.

On the loss side you can't nullify the wide range of physical moves, and you lose out on full combo punishes on a read or on guaranteed gap punishes. Her potential off of parry is huge compared to reflects and typical parrys, and it's a hell of a lot more satisfying and mentally stimulating that a basic reflect..

The chance of utilizing the damage you gain after parrying is less than 5%. It looks good in practice mode but in actual match. You are more likely to get punished than do some damage to your opponent.

I would happily take reflect over "potential" damage which you might get a chance like once in 20 matches to do.

 

[Ryu Hayabusa]

One more benefit of having reflect is that it ll give her a some game of her own instead of playing her opponent's game. It ll force zoning characters to take risk.

Ducking and inching forward is not the way, zoning character build tom of meter in time it takes Wonder Woman to get to them. They can easily roll out or clash because they always have meter advantage.

Getting you are opponent doesn't shift the match in WoWo's favor. She struggles with opening her opponents up, needs meter to do significant damage and where the fk are her advancing strings?

Lasso normals have pathetic range and what do you get from b2 at sweep range? B22, lasso grab and shield bash. None of that leads to healthy damage.

One thing I have noticed is that Wonder Woman players are more likely to spend meter on universal tools such as b3 & f3 compared to players of other characters who are more likely to spend meter on special moves so they can extend the combo or open up their opponents.

 

[TheGabStandard]

Shield toss doesn't go full screen and it's highly punishable. If you get hit by projectile shield toss disappears become reaching opponent. It can't be used to trade.




The chance of utilizing the damage you gain after parrying is less than 5%. It looks good in practice mode but in actual match. You are more likely to get punished than do some damage to your opponent.

I would happily take reflect over "potential" damage which you might get a chance like once in 20 matches to do.

Where did you get the less than 5% figure from? Just curious.

I honestly believe to unlock the full potential of WoWo in her current form requires high level understanding if not mastery of her parry. It is A LOT of dedicated work but in doing so becomes another tool to work with. As for the likelihood of doing it in matches, that is the same as everything else whether it is a setup, a BnB etc. It requires practice and continuous use until you feel like it is second nature. Then combined with reads/picking up patterns you will use parry more often

 

[Ryu Hayabusa]

Where did you get the less than 5% figure from? Just curious.

From experience and by watching some high level gameplay of WoWo on youtube. The chances successfully utilizing the damage buff from parry and landing a combo is less than 5%. If you play like 20 matches then you might be able to do it once.

Even when you do manage to land a combo with parry buff it is more likely be that you parried a projectile or single hit at close range and managed to land a combo on opponent who made a mistake rather than parrying gaps in strings and punishing with combo of your own.

I honestly believe to unlock the full potential of WoWo in her current form requires high level understanding if not mastery of her parry. It is A LOT of dedicated work but in doing so becomes another tool to work with. As for the likelihood of doing it in matches, that is the same as everything else whether it is a setup, a BnB etc. It requires practice and continuous use until you feel like it is second nature. Then combined with reads/picking up patterns you will use parry more often

It's all good on paper and in practice mode but it doesn't simply work when you are up Against someone who knows what he is doing. Parry is good against b3s and wake ups(if it's just one hit) but as a Wonder Woman player you are going to spend most of your time at distance from your opponent and trying to get in. Her parry has very limited use and she doesn't really get to capitalize on damage buff.

 

[ShepherdOfFire]

In IGAU, Raven had a anti-projectile special move (Empty void) : it was able to deny every projectile caught. If you meter burned it, you were able to reflect the projectile (with extra damage if I remember correctly) back to the opponent. it could be a good compromise if we apply the same properties to WW's bracelets. It would make zoning against WW a less viable option in critical situations (low health bars). The MB bracelets and the buffed shield toss would be two greats anti-zonning tools.

 

[Gooberking]

Shield toss doesn't go full screen and it's highly punishable. If you get hit by projectile shield toss disappears before reaching opponent. It can't be used to trade.




The chance of utilizing the damage you gain after parrying is less than 5%. It looks good in practice mode but in actual match. You are more likely to get punished than do some damage to your opponent.

I would happily take reflect over "potential" damage which you might get a chance like once in 20 matches to do.

I wasn't speaking about the buff at all. It's not required to be one of if not the best parry in the game. It's not an anti-projectile tool, it's an anti-aggression tool that also happens to nullify projectiles. In a zone heavy game having closeup options may not always feel ideal when struggling to get in, but I'd rather improve other things to help her close gaps than sacrifice her closeup game for something that my not accomplish much of anything. Things like giving her a full time air-dash that improves with the buff, or a buff that armors shield bash so you can trade damage to get in.

Maybe I don't get how parry falls apart at a higher level, but I'm left feeling if the instinct is to use it to deal with zoning then that's missing the point and power of the move.

As far as caching in the buff, then off of a projectile absorb, yeah it probably is 5%. Nobody should be tempted by it into playing risky. Caching in on physical attacks is totally different and is often guaranteed if you land the parry.

 

[TheGabStandard]

From experience and by watching some high level gameplay of WoWo on youtube. The chances successfully utilizing the damage buff from parry and landing a combo is less than 5%. If you play like 20 matches then you might be able to do it once.

Even when you do manage to land a combo with parry buff it is more likely be that you parried a projectile or single hit at close range and managed to land a combo on opponent who made a mistake rather than parrying gaps in strings and punishing with combo of your own.



It's all good on paper and in practice mode but it doesn't simply work when you are up Against someone who knows what he is doing. Parry is good against b3s and wake ups(if it's just one hit) but as a Wonder Woman player you are going to spend most of your time at distance from your opponent and trying to get in. Her parry has very limited use and she doesn't really get to capitalize on damage buff.

I see where you are coming from with your points but I do feel the judgment is too early. The game is barely a month old so a lot of things have not been learned/experienced/mastered etc. I wouldn't expect anyone to get the full potential of parry at this stage when learning MUs in a general sense is most player's priority right now, while gaps in strings comes under intricate knowledge. I do feel in time the potential can be realised but as I said it will take work.

Now if in 6-12 months time nothing happens with parry I would happily admit I was wrong but it seems to me it is too early in the game's life to write off the move.

I will admit I do have a biased view as I spent a lot of my time in MKX learning to use Roll in gaps as Mileena to great success. So I feel that the same could be applied to parry and hopefully we will see something come to fruition in the future.

 

[Ryu Hayabusa]

I wasn't speaking about the buff at all. It's not required to be one of if not the best parry in the game. It's not an anti-projectile tool, it's an anti-aggression tool that also happens to nullify projectiles. In a zone heavy game having closeup options may not always feel ideal when struggling to get in, but I'd rather improve other things to help her close gaps than sacrifice her closeup game for something that my not accomplish much of anything. Things like giving her a full time air-dash that improves with the buff, or a buff that armors shield bash so you can trade damage to get in.

Maybe I don't get how parry falls apart at a higher level, but I'm left feeling if the instinct is to use it to deal with zoning then that's missing the point and power of the move.

When Wonder Woman was revealed last year tyler lansdown said in an interview that she would have projectile reflect parry which shows projectile reflecting was part of her design and the fact that the removed her 2 mobility moves(straight air punch and Dive punch) from her base moves without giving her anything in return says a lot about her design.

As far as caching in the buff, then off of a projectile absorb, yeah it probably is 5%. Nobody should be tempted by it into playing risky. Caching in on physical attacks is totally different and is often guaranteed if you land the parry.

Parrying Melee attacks and using that buff for combo damage is riskier and harder. It is only useful against b3s and single hit wake up attacks.