Kotal Kahn General Discussion

[Qwark28]

Ironically, their list isn't entirely whack.

 

[Morgan the pilgrim]

I think its that the timing to Kotal air juggles are absolutely strange. I haven't had the same issues with other characters.

Try to do F24 into F12 , B22 into F12 ,F12 into F12 and F3 into F12. eather im r*** or ALL OF THEM HAVE DIFFERENT COMBO TIMINGS.Dont know why tho cuz in all of the cases combo pop up is after the hit confirms but for some reason f24 is gives u the biggest window to chain into f12 and f3/b22 gives u the smallest one .

 

[Pterodactyl]

What do u guys think if we could choose our own abilitites, so if we could choose he had his sunray replaced with dmg totem and give him his normal sunray like he has in his cat variation, would he be more viable in that variation?

Literally all I do with Kotal for player and private matches is swap god ray for damage totem.

That one simple change compliments his command grab as amp grab allows you to get out a free totem summon for two layers of damage buff or potentially a tracking amp’d beam(but only one characters without full screen checks like Sub or Liu). That said even if they hit you out of the risky amp beam recovery, the beam will still track them and do unavoidable damage.

 

[AK Harold]

Random match up stuff and good bad habits I use.

You can flawless Errons f4 and u2 for combos. He is o e of the few that can do this.
You can parry Errons f4 and jump over the amp for full punish.

Parry vs Subzero f4 allows a full punish with F1

Parry vs cetrion Boulder leaves her very negative even at full screen so you can't get frame trapped

Geras has a really hard time mounting offense after blocking your f4.

Against fast high projectiles you can eat one with sunlight and end positive if they do not approach you. Just sit there and duck vs characters like Johnny or thin ice sub etc.

If I have a 150 life advantage or more, I sunlight trade a lot. Especially in the corner where they have no way to stop the heal except to throw you out and take the damage. They can crush you out of it depending on character. Characters with lower burst lose out the trade often. You are one of the few characters that can heal, use you life as a resource that can replenish.

Neutral jump 1 blows up advancing strings often.

Kotal has both directions throw crush. It's kinda cheap.

I b22 with parry to give myself another turn. Opens up using b223 so they can't mash in the gap.

I flawless block attempt after all my blocked attacks. This will give you Intel if they are pressuring you frame perfect. If not, you know you have frames to back walk or D1.

I wave dash and stand still a lot. I think breaking your own pace helps a lot. It allows me to land a lot of f2 or whiff punishes.

F243 sometimes you gotta just do it. Build up the reads early or when they have no amp meters.

After f34 or 4 you can totem unless they have a full screen move. Even if they do, you can still use it as a gamble. Use his sword ender to reverse position if needed to stay on totem screen to stack. If you have one totem out already the value doubles.

In general, you should not be point blank against anyone. You should be at b4 range or more and adjust the space with your walk speed.

I use b4 a lot, a lot. Kotal had good burst speed and his shimmies are really good. Don't just try and brute Force all the time.

 

[Qwark28]

Random match up stuff and good bad habits I use.

You can flawless Errons f4 and u2 for combos. He is o e of the few that can do this.
You can parry Errons f4 and jump over the amp for full punish.

Parry vs Subzero f4 allows a full punish with F1

Parry vs cetrion Boulder leaves her very negative even at full screen so you can't get frame trapped

Geras has a really hard time mounting offense after blocking your f4.

Against fast high projectiles you can eat one with sunlight and end positive if they do not approach you. Just sit there and duck vs characters like Johnny or thin ice sub etc.

If I have a 150 life advantage or more, I sunlight trade a lot. Especially in the corner where they have no way to stop the heal except to throw you out and take the damage. They can crush you out of it depending on character. Characters with lower burst lose out the trade often. You are one of the few characters that can heal, use you life as a resource that can replenish.

Neutral jump 1 blows up advancing strings often.

Kotal has both directions throw crush. It's kinda cheap.

I b22 with parry to give myself another turn. Opens up using b223 so they can't mash in the gap.

I flawless block attempt after all my blocked attacks. This will give you Intel if they are pressuring you frame perfect. If not, you know you have frames to back walk or D1.

I wave dash and stand still a lot. I think breaking your own pace helps a lot. It allows me to land a lot of f2 or whiff punishes.

F243 sometimes you gotta just do it. Build up the reads early or when they have no amp meters.

After f34 or 4 you can totem unless they have a full screen move. Even if they do, you can still use it as a gamble. Use his sword ender to reverse position if needed to stay on totem screen to stack. If you have one totem out already the value doubles.

In general, you should not be point blank against anyone. You should be at b4 range or more and adjust the space with your walk speed.

I use b4 a lot, a lot. Kotal had good burst speed and his shimmies are really good. Don't just try and brute Force all the time.

One thing that needs to be mentioned is that F34 becomes a quite bad string once your opponents figure out how to option select to poke out of the F3 stagger and flawless block the 4 at the same time.

 

[AK Harold]

Is it a true option select? Without any frame loss.

Also f3 parry is good for throwing that off.

 

[Qwark28]

Is it a true option select? Without any frame loss.

Also f3 parry is good for throwing that off.

Not sure but I was always beaten out of anything I tried.

Parry doesn't leave you any +. I've tested baiting pokes with parry, if you parry a D1 you're actually at neutral/+-1.

 

[AK Harold]

Yeah the parry is a fixed "block" value. So the more actual frames you normally would have the more effective it is.

The D1 poke war with parry is to change the timing and response time of your opponent. They get really used to D1 to D1 checks. But if you parry their D1 you don't take chip and get a damage buff for your next exchange. Playing kotal you gotta add up small advantages

 

[Qwark28]

Yeah the parry is a fixed "block" value. So the more actual frames you normally would have the more effective it is.

The D1 poke war with parry is to change the timing and response time of your opponent. They get really used to D1 to D1 checks. But if you parry their D1 you don't take chip and get a damage buff for your next exchange. Playing kotal you gotta add up small advantages

Too risky for my tastes, I'd do it every now and then ofc, but if I rely on circus tricks like those, it'll just overload and bring me down mentally, more than this character already has.

My scene is already begging me to change chars for my sake.

 

[AK Harold]

Haha, if you are stressing try some other characters, but honestly I've been working through the cast and damn kotal always feels like home right now. Him and jade so far are getting the most of my attention.

Added info. Totemic wall carry is kinda sick with panther dash enders.

 

[Qwark28]

Haha, if you are stressing try some other characters, but honestly I've been working through the cast and damn kotal always feels like home right now. Him and jade so far are getting the most of my attention.

Added info. Totemic wall carry is kinda sick with panther dash enders.

I already really like erron but im just stubborn enough to keep playing a character that gets me nowhere just because I like them. I should've played erron day 1 and never looked back. Instead, I'll probably travel in EU tournaments and play this char. I was joking yesterday on how I'll ensure everyone I'll lab erron the next day and end up playing totemic.

 

[Qwark28]

I'm also really jealous on how wasted the variation slot for sunlight in ascension is. I literally couldn't understand why you'd do sunlight trades in totemic because the only use of it in ascension is for 1% chip, 1,5% if they're slow. And for locking yourself in the corner with it when you have at least 40%+ life and they have maybe 5%.

 

[AK Harold]

Yeah totemic sunlight is so fun for so many reasons

 

[AK Harold]

Like against rushdown I throw it does non stop, it's basically trading pieces in chess. Except with totems the healing potential is ridiculous. I honestly don't get to land many raw combos with kotal so the damage difference is negligible to me. I really just use Ascension vs scorpion to max the risk reward to my favor. But even lately I've just been doing totemic vs reborn.

 

[KingJerm731]

I’m gonna start labbing someone else but I think Kotal will stay my main. He’s just too fun to me for some reason and I feel it makes you a better player to try and make him work. Started injustice 2 with swamp thing and he was pretty decent by the second patch. I’m hoping my patience pays off again, heh.

 

[King Kull]

Like against rushdown I throw it does non stop, it's basically trading pieces in chess. Except with totems the healing potential is ridiculous. I honestly don't get to land many raw combos with kotal so the damage difference is negligible to me. I really just use Ascension vs scorpion to max the risk reward to my favor. But even lately I've just been doing totemic vs reborn.

The panther variation doesn't really have much in the way of raw combos to land anyway. I find when I'm using it I'm just grinding down opponents with a lot of moves that generally revolve around the 4 button (I just wish F14 led to something useful) and grabs. Obviously I tie in the saw cut anytime the opportunity arises as the damage is good and being able to control positioning can be highly useful. Honestly, the combination of basic grabs + basic sun seems superior to the command grab + god ray in the ascension version, which is odd considering that second option takes 2 ability points.

 

[AK Harold]

I'm telling you guys though. Try totemic and just dick around with sunlight and totems. You may get nothing from it, but it's hell of a lot of fun watching yourself get your ass kicked all game, but somehow lifebars are even lol.

 

[Qwark28]

I tried labbing totemic a bit, just seems like a pile of shit.

 

[AK Harold]

I tried labbing totemic a bit, just seems like a pile of shit.

Lol in the lab it has nothing. If I stick with him I'll try n upload some totemic.

 

[Morgan the pilgrim]

Totemic seems more like a anti-zoning variation. Amp cat for punishing projectile spam and close the gap, KB disc punishes spam aswell and sun beam with totem give u good sustain. But the problem still kinda stands ... With the lack of kahn cut u wont have any combos and at the same time u cant utilise totems to theyr full potential .

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

I think his parry is better than in X. But it would be nice if there was a amplified parry that came out at 1f. The thing with his totems is that they are different than they were in X. Not sure what they could do with totems, I don't like how you need to summon 3 of them to get the full effect. If you only had to summon 1, then they would be fine. But with three, I feel that the recovery should be shorter than what it is now.

My observation is similar to yours, Kotal is a footsie based character. He doesn't need big combos to do large chunks of damage. His walk speed is great, his range is really good. I'm enjoying him so far.

Kotal is definitely a footsie character, has god-like movement speed and very powerful range.
His parry is absolute garbage imo. Only works on single hits and doesn't offer frame advantage to counter. Since his close up game is trash the parry does nothing for him. It can stop counter pokes but is easily beat by multi hits into full combo punish and if they wait it's full combo punishable. The buff on it only lasts 4 seconds which isn't enough time to capitalize.

He also has serious hitbox issues with his best strings F1 and F2 in combo and in the neutral. S1 and S2 have hitbox issues as well making them wiff in poke range making his only options up close 11+ frames and the 11f F1 has issues connecting.
I'd that was fixed then he would probably be among the best along with getting a 11f mid.
His D1 has raptor syndrome
His D3 is abysmal and D4 is too slow.

All of his good strings put him in that problem wiff range after blocked. Then on top if all if that his F12 and F24 has issues connecting in combo, F12 after Kahn-cut and F2 at start since it's hitbox only works at the very last few active frames and that's at the end of the animation making it countered by any decent Normal.

Most of his specials are death in start and recovery.

Hayyawhei not sure how to spell it but his command grab DB2 should allow control of which side you put them at. Even if it cost meter.
Kotal is good mid range and nowhere else. His disk is ok for zoning but his sunlight is what I think would help him in zoning, midscreen damage and sustain. His close up needs serious help. He could have a few more KB'S.
All in all I agree his buttons need fixed and that's the sum of it. After that fix sun/CG for design and character personality.

 

[LawAbidingCitizen]

Totemic seems more like a anti-zoning variation. Amp cat for punishing projectile spam and close the gap, KB disc punishes spam aswell and sun beam with totem give u good sustain. But the problem still kinda stands ... With the lack of kahn cut u wont have any combos and at the same time u cant utilise totems to theyr full potential .

I agree. Imo Totemic is pure retarded and really has nothing going for him. The problems he truly suffers from is base Kotal not just in Ascension (Hitbox issues, buttons) exsist in Totemic as well.

Totemic has totems and corner carry but no damage, at least he doesn't have God Ray lol. But ultimately he still blows up close and has a plethora of button issues and then has no damage when he does touch them.

 

[Morgan the pilgrim]

I agree. Imo Totemic is pure (soap bar in my mouth) and really has nothing going for him. The problems he truly suffers from is base Kotal not just in Ascension (Hitbox issues, buttons) exsist in Totemic as well.

Totemic has totems and corner carry but no damage, at least he doesn't have God Ray lol. But ultimately he still blows up close and has a plethora of button issues and then has no damage when he does touch them.

Thats true as f. Puting aside his hitbox and frame data issues which we know are bad (and will be fixed ) , i think NRS kinda didnt make a good choice with variation and ability swaps.Kahn cut should of been base move and his CG and Sword-cut should of been variation changeable. That way eather u take CG for dmg buff or stick with anti-air combo ender in favor of corner carry cat variation slot. I hope its not too confusing but u get the point.

 

[Juggs]

What do y’all do in the Searing Rage Scorpion matchup? I think it’s a VERY bad MU for Kotal. I main Scorpion and I’ve actually played a lot of Kotal’s. And they have such a tough time getting in. Once they’re in it’s more of a fair fight. But literally Scorpion can react to all of his long advancing strings with a death spin or teleport. It seems like the best options is to wavedash or walk him down. Idk, seems like one of the tougher MU’s in the game.

 

[Qwark28]

What do y’all do in the Searing Rage Scorpion matchup? I think it’s a VERY bad MU for Kotal. I main Scorpion and I’ve actually played a lot of Kotal’s. And they have such a tough time getting in. Once they’re in it’s more of a fair fight. But literally Scorpion can react to all of his long advancing strings with a death spin or teleport. It seems like the best options is to wavedash or walk him down. Idk, seems like one of the tougher MU’s in the game.

Haven't played any good scorpions but I'd imagine you just play Uber patiently. Scorpion can only punish you if you press buttons, by not pressing buttons people get naturally put into your ideal range just bc of inactivity, so it's easier then.