Kotal Kahn General Discussion

[HapHaxion]

does anyone think Kotal currently has any specific MUs where he has the advantage or is just good for him? Kotal seems underwhelming atm so I was just wondering

 

[Morgan the pilgrim]

does anyone think Kotal currently has any specific MUs where he has the advantage or is just good for him? Kotal seems underwhelming atm so I was just wondering

jade will outzone u , jax/jacquie will get up close and u cant do much about it (and then welcom to string+ D1/3 mash town). Noob is kinda better version of u and so far i had only ez matches vs scorpions .Kinda want to give u a good advice but i can only say aggainst scorpion be patient , let him go in ,and punish him for his lack of brain.Ascencion is ur kinda must have variation but ul get outzoned and out mashed . Totemic is better aggainst zoning but ul just lack dmg to punish them when u get up close .

 

[Ohgrr]

Coming from street fighter and first more in depth dive into mk, so- bias and all, but I was finding kotah's lack of mid pressure off of d1 pretty frustrating, but now that I'm option selecting jab into sun choke my opinion of his close game has wildly shifted.

I haven't seen much discussion about it, nor have I seen much (any?) gameplay where its used - is there an easy punish to it that I'm missing?

 

[Qwark28]

Coming from street fighter and first more in depth dive into mk, so- bias and all, but I was finding kotah's lack of mid pressure off of d1 pretty frustrating, but now that I'm option selecting jab into sun choke my opinion of his close game has wildly shifted.

I haven't seen much discussion about it, nor have I seen much (any?) gameplay where its used - is there an easy punish to it that I'm missing?

You're not option selecting, you're tick throwing or hit confirming D1. The first is Yolo, the second has a terrible risk reward.

 

[Ohgrr]

You're not option selecting, you're tick throwing or hit confirming D1. The first is Yolo, the second has a terrible risk reward.

Technically ticking off block which is different from street fighter but its most definitely an OS I believe. The frame difference on block/hit is very large and makes a pretty easily OS-able window if you delay the cancel.

Recording in training mode and it does both options with 100% success.

 

[Qwark28]

Technically ticking off block which is different from street fighter but its most definitely an OS I believe. The frame difference on block/hit is very large and makes a pretty easily OS-able window if you delay the cancel.

Recording in training mode and it does both options with 100% success.

Make a video vs a dummy on random block.

 

[Ohgrr]

Make a video vs a dummy on random block.

Will do, but this is -very- easy. Just cancel it late. Video in a few minutes once I figure out recording again lol.

Edit: Here ya go! Dummy recording with just 1 instance of the jab-throw os.

 

[Qwark28]

Will do, but this is -very- easy. Just cancel it late. Video in a few minutes once I figure out recording again lol.

Edit: Here ya go! Dummy recording with just 1 instance of the jab-throw os.

I meant put the dummy on random block and do it 10 times, don't record it and block, just to be safe.

Regardless, if it's a thing, you input the command grab so late you probably lose a significant chunk of frame adv if your D1 was a hit.

Disregarding that entirely, this'll get patched, just like in MKX.

 

[Ohgrr]

I meant put the dummy on random block and do it 10 times, don't record it and block, just to be safe.

Regardless, if it's a thing, you input the command grab so late you probably lose a significant chunk of frame adv if your D1 was a hit.

Disregarding that entirely, this'll get patched, just like in MKX.

It's very easy man, just try it, takes a couple tests to find the proper speed and then its 100% (results vary in random lag but what frame specific shit doesn't). And nothing happens if D1 hits, thats the OS.

I thought this type of thing was known? - wasn't this type of OS the exact reason f3 tick was removed? If not then I'm rockin it all to way to the bank until it's patched, where hopefully kotal gets some love in return.

edit: Random Block

 

[Qwark28]

It's very easy man, just try it, takes a couple tests to find the proper speed and then its 100% (results vary in random lag but what frame specific shit doesn't). And nothing happens if D1 hits, thats the OS.

I thought this type of thing was known? - wasn't this type of OS the exact reason f3 tick was removed? If not then I'm rockin it all to way to the bank until it's patched, where hopefully kotal gets some love in return.

edit: Random Block

F3 tick was also inescapable. You could do nothing about the command grab, as soon as you blocked F3 it was gg. You OSed it so that your opp took guaranteed damage if F3 made contact at any point.

 

[Ohgrr]

Ah that would be a problem for sure lol.

You can still jump out of this, but puts the onus of guessing right on the defender and not so weirdly lobsided on the attacker (Which felt very bizarre coming from SF tickthrows). Probably intended?

 

[chief713]

It's very easy man, just try it, takes a couple tests to find the proper speed and then its 100% (results vary in random lag but what frame specific shit doesn't). And nothing happens if D1 hits, thats the OS.

I thought this type of thing was known? - wasn't this type of OS the exact reason f3 tick was removed? If not then I'm rockin it all to way to the bank until it's patched, where hopefully kotal gets some love in return.

edit: Random Block

That's a good find. You can probably input command grab again after the OS so you can get the tick in case D1 hits. That way you got a double OS lol

Also, coming from SF too I feel like tick throwing is way cheaper in this game. The CG's generally aren't as dangerous as SF damage-wise, but the characters with them are do dangerous outside the CG, you almost kinda hafta eat it. Sorta like normal grabs in SFV haha

 

[Qwark28]

Ah that would be a problem for sure lol.

You can still jump out of this, but puts the onus of guessing right on the defender and not so weirdly lobsided on the attacker (Which felt very bizarre coming from SF tickthrows). Probably intended?

Same thing was patched out in mkx.

 

[Jeffrey Wolf]

Just wanted to say thanks for sharing @Ohgrr and taking the time to make two vids. OS are known in MK but since the game is still fairly young they haven't been grinded out much yet. Nice find.

 

[younghou]

i think kotal horrible match ups are erron black, sonya, subzero , cassie and jade. i really feel hopeless on those match ups.

 

[Qwark28]

i think kotal horrible match ups are erron black, sonya, subzero , cassie and jade. i really feel hopeless on those match ups.

What gives you problems in the SZ matchup and in which variation?

 

[younghou]

Subzero in his second variation (thin ice).
I find really hard to beat all his zoning/footsies tools, i can't trade with the ice ball, i can't duck forever because he has his polar axe, frigid storm and his death-cicle barrage, sometimes they just check my blocking with a risky slide in neutral and switch sides. and when my brain colapse they f4 me into a throw or overhead/low mix up.

 

[Qwark28]

Subzero in his second variation (thin ice).
I find really hard to beat all his zoning/footsies tools, i can't trade with the ice ball, i can't duck forever because he has his polar axe, frigid storm and his death-cicle barrage, sometimes they just check my blocking with a risky slide in neutral and switch sides. and when my brain colapse they f4 me into a throw or overhead/low mix up.

You're not supposed to trade with iceball or throw projectiles more than 1-2 times on knockdown.

The matchup is life lead based, get the lifelead and make him come to you.

His mid projectile is absolute garbage, gets smaller the more it travels, slow as fuck.

The barrage is punishable by F4 if he does it out of any normal outside of max range D4.

You can flawless block F4 on reaction for an U2 punish. If you block it, it's only +4. Sub's fastest mid is 13f. You can even neutral jump and his B3 will antiair you but the followup will whiff entirely.

The only actual thing he has in that matchup is the air axe that you have to be patient about and the slide. The slide is a major yolo factor and it unfortunately has a krushing blow. But you can breakaway in between the 1st and 2nd hit of slide.

 

[kabelfritz]

ive dabbled with totemic and i really like the character concept. hes more of a keepaway/whiff punishing char with self-healing. his best tool is obviously the totem, but i see some issues:

1. the fact that he has only low damage output to benefit from it. with three totems up, you can heal yourself 100%, but he doesnt get the damage from combos and also has no good mixups. its also not easy to get the totem out because its slow (safe only after b22 but for damage sacrifice), let alone three. its great that a second summon already caches out the dealt damage and sets up a new count though.
2. the fact that the totems dont always stack but sometimes appear in different locations and their effects dont synergize.

what do you kotal mains think and how do you play this char? i think i havent ever faced this variation.

 

[Ram]

ive dabbled with totemic and i really like the character concept. hes more of a keepaway/whiff punishing char with self-healing. his best tool is obviously the totem, but i see some issues:

1. the fact that he has only low damage output to benefit from it. with three totems up, you can heal yourself 100%, but he doesnt get the damage from combos and also has no good mixups. its also not easy to get the totem out because its slow (safe only after b22 but for damage sacrifice), let alone three. its great that a second summon already caches out the dealt damage and sets up a new count though.
2. the fact that the totems dont always stack but sometimes appear in different locations and their effects dont synergize.

what do you kotal mains think and how do you play this char? i think i havent ever faced this variation.

All good points.

I'll be honest, I NEVER use his totem. The reason is that I'd much rather go for sun, which comes out quicker and returns health immediately. Add on top of this the fact that health regen from totem only really becomes significant when you have multiple up, so I never go for it. Not saying that's the best way to play him, but it's just how I do it.

Midscreen, I play him as an annoying keepaway/whiff punishing character, like you described (with lots and lots of throws). With a lifelead, I'm putting on sun, throwing disks, harassing with f34 and f4 and ground-pound (occasionally) and letting my opponent come to me. In that sense, I play him as a death-by-1000-cuts character rather than a touch-of-death character. Now, that changes in the corner, where after a knockdown, I like to neutral jump into 221 (a safe, launching string) into really nice meterless corner damage (221 d1 34xxSword).

Lastly, when the opponent is close to death (~10% or less), I use sun and amplified sun like a maniac. Sure, it gets me punished here and there, but when used smartly (e.g., when you have them cornered), there is no escape and they slowly bbbuuurrrnnnn.

EDIT: I'd also like to add this point with regards to combos/damage. It's true that without Kahn Kut, Kotal's midscreen combo options are limited in Totemic. However, in Ascension, Kotal can't follow up 3,4 (a high-damage string) with anything, since 3,4xxCommand Grab whiffs (midscreen) (not sure if 3,4xxKahn Kut works). BUT!!! in Totemic, Kotal can follow up 3,4 with Sword Cut (and in some cases Cat Pounce), leading to higher damage potential. Couple of midscreen examples:

• b22 3,4xxSword
• u2 (wakeup or flawless block reversal) microdash 3,4xxSword
• d2 (krushing blow) 3,4xxSword
• f122 (krushing blow) 3,4xxSword

 

[Mandolore1123]

All good points.

I'll be honest, I NEVER use his totem. The reason is that I'd much rather go for sun, which comes out quicker and returns health immediately. Add on top of this the fact that health regen from totem only really becomes significant when you have multiple up, so I never go for it. Not saying that's the best way to play him, but it's just how I do it.

Midscreen, I play him as an annoying keepaway/whiff punishing character, like you described (with lots and lots of throws). With a lifelead, I'm putting on sun, throwing disks, harassing with f34 and f4 and ground-pound (occasionally) and letting my opponent come to me. In that sense, I play him as a death-by-1000-cuts character rather than a touch-of-death character. Now, that changes in the corner, where after a knockdown, I like to neutral jump into 221 (a safe, launching string) into really nice meterless corner damage (221 d1 34xxSword).

Lastly, when the opponent is close to death (~10% or less), I use sun and amplified sun like a maniac. Sure, it gets me punished here and there, but when used smartly (e.g., when you have them cornered), there is no escape and they slowly bbbuuurrrnnnn.

EDIT: I'd also like to add this point with regards to combos/damage. It's true that without Kahn Kut, Kotal's midscreen combo options are limited in Totemic. However, in Ascension, Kotal can't follow up 3,4 (a high-damage string) with anything, since 3,4xxCommand Grab whiffs (midscreen) (not sure if 3,4xxKahn Kut works). BUT!!! in Totemic, Kotal can follow up 3,4 with Sword Cut (and in some cases Cat Pounce), leading to higher damage potential. Couple of midscreen examples:

• b22 3,4xxSword
• u2 (wakeup or flawless block reversal) microdash 3,4xxSword
• d2 (krushing blow) 3,4xxSword
• f122 (krushing blow) 3,4xxSword

Honestly considering dropping Ascension just because of the inconsistency of the Kahn Cut launch.

 

[kabelfritz]

All good points.

I'll be honest, I NEVER use his totem. The reason is that I'd much rather go for sun, which comes out quicker and returns health immediately. Add on top of this the fact that health regen from totem only really becomes significant when you have multiple up, so I never go for it. Not saying that's the best way to play him, but it's just how I do it.

Midscreen, I play him as an annoying keepaway/whiff punishing character, like you described (with lots and lots of throws). With a lifelead, I'm putting on sun, throwing disks, harassing with f34 and f4 and ground-pound (occasionally) and letting my opponent come to me. In that sense, I play him as a death-by-1000-cuts character rather than a touch-of-death character. Now, that changes in the corner, where after a knockdown, I like to neutral jump into 221 (a safe, launching string) into really nice meterless corner damage (221 d1 34xxSword).

Lastly, when the opponent is close to death (~10% or less), I use sun and amplified sun like a maniac. Sure, it gets me punished here and there, but when used smartly (e.g., when you have them cornered), there is no escape and they slowly bbbuuurrrnnnn.

EDIT: I'd also like to add this point with regards to combos/damage. It's true that without Kahn Kut, Kotal's midscreen combo options are limited in Totemic. However, in Ascension, Kotal can't follow up 3,4 (a high-damage string) with anything, since 3,4xxCommand Grab whiffs (midscreen) (not sure if 3,4xxKahn Kut works). BUT!!! in Totemic, Kotal can follow up 3,4 with Sword Cut (and in some cases Cat Pounce), leading to higher damage potential. Couple of midscreen examples:

• b22 3,4xxSword
• u2 (wakeup or flawless block reversal) microdash 3,4xxSword
• d2 (krushing blow) 3,4xxSword
• f122 (krushing blow) 3,4xxSword

nice, didnt know the b2,2-3,4 option

 

[_CHINOCUDEIRO_]

All good points.

I'll be honest, I NEVER use his totem. The reason is that I'd much rather go for sun, which comes out quicker and returns health immediately. Add on top of this the fact that health regen from totem only really becomes significant when you have multiple up, so I never go for it. Not saying that's the best way to play him, but it's just how I do it.

Midscreen, I play him as an annoying keepaway/whiff punishing character, like you described (with lots and lots of throws). With a lifelead, I'm putting on sun, throwing disks, harassing with f34 and f4 and ground-pound (occasionally) and letting my opponent come to me. In that sense, I play him as a death-by-1000-cuts character rather than a touch-of-death character. Now, that changes in the corner, where after a knockdown, I like to neutral jump into 221 (a safe, launching string) into really nice meterless corner damage (221 d1 34xxSword).

Lastly, when the opponent is close to death (~10% or less), I use sun and amplified sun like a maniac. Sure, it gets me punished here and there, but when used smartly (e.g., when you have them cornered), there is no escape and they slowly bbbuuurrrnnnn.

EDIT: I'd also like to add this point with regards to combos/damage. It's true that without Kahn Kut, Kotal's midscreen combo options are limited in Totemic. However, in Ascension, Kotal can't follow up 3,4 (a high-damage string) with anything, since 3,4xxCommand Grab whiffs (midscreen) (not sure if 3,4xxKahn Kut works). BUT!!! in Totemic, Kotal can follow up 3,4 with Sword Cut (and in some cases Cat Pounce), leading to higher damage potential. Couple of midscreen examples:

• b22 3,4xxSword
• u2 (wakeup or flawless block reversal) microdash 3,4xxSword
• d2 (krushing blow) 3,4xxSword
• f122 (krushing blow) 3,4xxSword

I do more or less the same.
I add one thing talking about damage. Sometimes we only look if the combo is long , or "cool", but , in terms of damage, this variation is not only 1000 cuts as you said. Kotal doesnt use the offensive bar a lot (neither proyectile amplified, nor launchers), so finishing the string with the amplified sword is a must. And also, Ji2 connects easily with strings, so...
F24-DF2amp is 241 (275 with Ji2)
B22-34-DF2amp is 284 (311 with Ji2)


For meterless combos I use the cat, that corner carries and has more damage than the meterless sword
F24-BF4 is 209 (with Ji2 248)
B22-34-BF4 is 262 (with Ji2 293)


P.D: I only have problems up close with D1 mashers, with this variaton you loose the command grab tick throws..... what do you use instead of it at close distance?

 

[kabelfritz]

I do more or less the same.
I add one thing talking about damage. Sometimes we only look if the combo is long , or "cool", but , in terms of damage, this variation is not only 1000 cuts as you said. Kotal doesnt use the offensive bar a lot (neither proyectile amplified, nor launchers), so finishing the string with the amplified sword is a must. And also, Ji2 connects easily with strings, so...
F24-DF2amp is 241 (275 with Ji2)
B22-34-DF2amp is 284 (311 with Ji2)


For meterless combos I use the cat, that corner carries and has more damage than the meterless sword
F24-BF4 is 209 (with Ji2 248)
B22-34-BF4 is 262 (with Ji2 293)


P.D: I only have problems up close with D1 mashers, with this variaton you loose the command grab tick throws..... what do you use instead of it at close distance?

d1-sword sword should be an option against mashers

 

[KotalKahnIsTrueKahn]

I do more or less the same.
I add one thing talking about damage. Sometimes we only look if the combo is long , or "cool", but , in terms of damage, this variation is not only 1000 cuts as you said. Kotal doesnt use the offensive bar a lot (neither proyectile amplified, nor launchers), so finishing the string with the amplified sword is a must. And also, Ji2 connects easily with strings, so...
F24-DF2amp is 241 (275 with Ji2)
B22-34-DF2amp is 284 (311 with Ji2)


For meterless combos I use the cat, that corner carries and has more damage than the meterless sword
F24-BF4 is 209 (with Ji2 248)
B22-34-BF4 is 262 (with Ji2 293)


P.D: I only have problems up close with D1 mashers, with this variaton you loose the command grab tick throws..... what do you use instead of it at close distance?

With d1 mashers, you do d1 into d4 (they don't block, they just try to mash d1). The d4 jails for your f4 but I also like to f2 after d4 (on hit)