General/Other - Kano Kano General Discussion Thread

[SaltShaker]

I think the big issue with this opening people up and footsies argument is being looked at all wrong and @Hitoshura sees that. We are using a character with great footsies yes but it's not SF or Tekken or any other fighter where stuff like that is really strong. We are playing MK and the effectiveness of footsies "and" zoning is heavily outweighed by 50/50's. These 50/50's are also extremely difficult to react to or not reactable at all. Leaving your options to a guess and that really isn't beneficial for Kano at all since our opponent doesn't have to guess most of the time vs him. He really does lack the freebies all the other characters were blessed with and in the future we are going to see him decline on the tier list once everyone catches onto that.

Edit: @LEGI0N47 is right in saying that; Bottom line is that no matter the variation Kano is IMO one of the most read and footsie based chars in the game. And it's this that honestly hurts him in this game since there's so many characters that are played with little to none of this. On top of that, those same characters out damage Kano with those mindless tools and strategies as well

What I think has to happen, and hopefully it will, is that all these 50/50 options have to become punishable. If they can't remove the OS because of game mechanics, then stuff like Raidens Shocker needs to be full combo punishable so they can't OS. If that happens I'd be ok with the 50/50's because the risk reward would be balanced, and that would also make players less reliant on them, engaging more in pressure and footsie tactics.

This I believe would move Kano up the charts, since he isn't reliant on 50/50's in the first place, and has all the nuetral tools a character can want. I'm hoping this fix happens not just for Kano, but because it'll make MKX a better game as a whole.

 

[NHDR]

^Same shit in SF4. Ryu plays the honest, slow-paced game when he faces C. Viper or El Fuerte. Kano is Ryu in this case.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

There definitely needs to be higher risk on a few 50/50 situations.

 

[Youphemism]

It's not rushdown! Jesus. What don't you understand?

The opponent can block low all day until he sees a njp. He has no mixup potential, so opening people up is an issue. He could use an overhead, but not one that can get a full combo off. Make it a 2-3 hitting string that isn't special cancelable.

Sure sounds like rushdown to me. And all your talk about opening them up and mixup potential, it looks like you're just talking about his rushdown/pressure/close up game. If you're not then you're going to have to explain your point lol.

Because you're basically saying why isn't he Spec Ops Sonya up close in Cyber lol. I don't know what else you expect anyone to say. Maybe you should try out Cutthroat instead.

Spec Ops Sonya? Lol do you mean Special Forces Sonya or Spec Ops Cassie?

 

[ando1184]

What I think has to happen, and hopefully it will, is that all these 50/50 options have to become punishable. If they can't remove the OS because of game mechanics, then stuff like Raidens Shocker needs to be full combo punishable so they can't OS. If that happens I'd be ok with the 50/50's because the risk reward would be balanced, and that would also make players less reliant on them, engaging more in pressure and footsie tactics.

This I believe would move Kano up the charts, since he isn't reliant on 50/50's in the first place, and has all the nuetral tools a character can want. I'm hoping this fix happens not just for Kano, but because it'll make MKX a better game as a whole.

That would be amazing but idk how devoted NRS would be at doing something like that. Especially since they care about the casual gamers as well as us honestly I think they should look at this with an LOL approach. LOL made patches based on community, the tourney balanced patches and the casual patches. If you were a competitive player you DL patch A and if not you either don't DL it or DL patch B. This would split the the community and divide us based on play preference. The only issue with that is $$$, time, and half the casual gamers see combo vids and competitive matches and think they can instantly do shit like that, then complain when they can't.

 

[SaltShaker]

Spec Ops Sonya? Lol do you mean Special Forces Sonya or Spec Ops Cassie?

Hahaha!!! Yea Special Forces Sonya my bad.


*Salt from playing Spec Ops Cassie is hard to shake away

 

[FlappyDaniel]

I think balance in all games should be for the high level player. The casuals or whatever are already not going to use their character/champion/race etc... To it's extent because they won't devote the time or effort. They shouldn't get changes to tools they aren't using in an optimal way.

 

[SaltShaker]

That would be amazing but idk how devoted NRS would be at doing something like that. Especially since they care about the casual gamers as well as us honestly I think they should look at this with an LOL approach. LOL made patches based on community, the tourney balanced patches and the casual patches. If you were a competitive player you DL patch A and if not you either don't DL it or DL patch B. This would split the the community and divide us based on play preference. The only issue with that is $$$, time, and half the casual gamers see combo vids and competitive matches and think they can instantly do shit like that, then complain when they can't.

Yea this is true. In the end they may actually want more stupidness in the game. Like what's the point of Raiden's OH being -60 on block if you can just OS it to make it either fully safe or full combo??? That's my only issue with the 50/50's in the game.

Where Kano comes in is that if he doesn't have one then his tools better be damn good to compensate. I think they are, but I just think some MU's are merciless. For example, I think GM Sub is 5-5. But if he makes a mistake sometimes you can combo and sometimes you'll poke depending on the mistake. But if YOU make a mistake you'll almost certainly be carried to the corner of death.

So while I do feel he's a strong mid character, I also feel his game his to be at its peak to achieve maximum results that a sloppy Erron can pull off with half the effort.

 

[Hitoshura]

Sure sounds like rushdown to me. And all your talk about opening them up and mixup potential, it looks like you're just talking about his rushdown/pressure/close up game. If you're not then you're going to have to explain your point lol.

It's right there. A string that isn't special cancelable. We get the hit, knock them down, then back away and begin to zone. Maybe I should of edited my post and put "and ends in knockdown" afterwards to clarify my point.

 

[Rude]

Your analysis is correct.

It is too early to predict accurate tier positions, but Cybernetic Kano is probably no higher than a mid tier character. He is very good at something that is not very relevant to the meta game. You need easy pressure and simple 50/50 mix ups to be top tier in this game. He probably loses to most top tier characters because he cannot generate adequate pressure and offense.

So this is definitely a thing with you, right?

I remember after The Deathstroke nerf you would go on to police the DS forums and trash on anyone who would dare say DS was still viable. "Kano 2.0" if memory serves.

You would run that gimmick into the ground until finally you admitted that he was not low tier toward the end of the game's life.

So i can only conclude, looking for a new character community to spread doom and gloom upon in service of your need to replace The Deathstroke gimmick, you've settled on The Kano Community.

Come to think of it, i can't think of the last time i read a helpful, positive, uplifting M2Dave thread. The Death of Footsies certainly weren't it. Not to say that you didn't have a point, you did and i agree only to an extent, but maybe that the point was overblown and exaggerated in service to making as big a scare as possible.

No one here is calling Kano The Kabal of MK X.

We're not saying he 7-3s the cast.

But to suggest that he is a tournament viable character?

The balls! The absolute nerve of us! The supposed Kano nerfs didn't change much. All of the strings that were safe before patch are still safe now.

It's true, Kano can't block infinite Quan Chi anymore, but weren't you in Zyphox's Takeda thread supporting a -3 or -4 change to Kano's b1?

That was really the only major change to the character. The rest of the supposed nerfs that some claim have damned him to unviability didn't change all his strings that much at all. B13, b31, 2,f4, f4, b23 are all still safe.

I'll meet you halfway and say upper mid. I'm a believer like that.

 

[Rude]

Does Cyber Kano need an overhead?

I don't necessarily think it's the determinate factor on if Cyber Kano lives and dies in tournament, but you know what? I'll take it.

But since in the game as it is now, he doesn't have one I'm willing to work without it. It would be nice but the character can live without it.

What would you make overhead, anyway?

B23 is a combo starter.
F4 is a combo starter.
2 is a combo starter.
B13 is a combo starter.
F4 is a combo starter.
I guess you could make the f4 in 2f4 a combo starter, but wouldn't that negate the point of giving him an overhead to begin with?

It would have to be a move unique to Cyber, otherwise you're giving Cutthroat two overheads.

Which you could do, if you wanted. Commando players would be happy.

I think at this point, unless he gets one in the next patch, we should make do with what we have.

 

[SaltShaker]

It's right there. A string that isn't special cancelable. We get the hit, knock them down, then back away and begin to zone. Maybe I should of edited my post and put "and ends in knockdown" afterwards to clarify my point.

Why not give every character and variation in the game OH/Low starter elements while we're at it?

I just hate the idea that every problem or issue with a character has to be resolved with an OH/Low of some sorts. There are plenty of suggestions that can keep his core gameplay in tactic while buffing him to fare better against the Top 10. How about more pushback on block after F4, a faster B2, more priority on his Ball specials, a few more % on his combos, more damage on knives, more block stun on laser, more pushback on B13 and B23 to help compensate the B1 nerf, etc. Things of that nature that enhance what he was designed to do.

Just throwing the OH bandaid on it is a cop out and won't really help anything in the long run of the character.

 

[Youphemism]

Hahaha!!! Yea Special Forces Sonya my bad.


*Salt from playing Spec Ops Cassie is hard to shake away

My training partner plays her

It's right there. A string that isn't special cancelable. We get the hit, knock them down, then back away and begin to zone. Maybe I should of edited my post and put "and ends in knockdown" afterwards to clarify my point.

But we have that in 2F4?

I'll meet you halfway and say upper mid. I'm a believer like that.

I've been saying he's upper mid the whole time...

 

[SaltShaker]

My training partner plays her

Yup one of mine too. There isn't a match more uphill than Hellfire Scorp and Spec Ops Cassie for Cyber imo. When I need extra salt for my fries, I just play those matches a few times.

 

[M2Dave]

So this is definitely a thing with you, right?

I remember after The Deathstroke nerf you would go on to police the DS forums and trash on anyone who would dare say DS was still viable. "Kano 2.0" if memory serves.

You would run that gimmick into the ground until finally you admitted that he was not low tier toward the end of the game's life.

So i can only conclude, looking for a new character community to spread doom and gloom upon in service of your need to replace The Deathstroke gimmick, you've settled on The Kano Community.

Come to think of it, i can't think of the last time i read a helpful, positive, uplifting M2Dave thread. The Death of Footsies certainly weren't it. Not to say that you didn't have a point, you did and i agree only to an extent, but maybe that the point was overblown and exaggerated in service to making as big a scare as possible.

No one here is calling Kano The Kabal of MK X.

We're not saying he 7-3s the cast.

But to suggest that he is a tournament viable character?

The balls! The absolute nerve of us! The supposed Kano nerfs didn't change much. All of the strings that were safe before patch are still safe now.

It's true, Kano can't block infinite Quan Chi anymore, but weren't you in Zyphox's Takeda thread supporting a -3 or -4 change to Kano's b1?

That was really the only major change to the character. The rest of the supposed nerfs that some claim have damned him to unviability didn't change all his strings that much at all. B13, b31, 2,f4, f4, b23 are all still safe.

I'll meet you halfway and say upper mid. I'm a believer like that.

I made no comparisons to Deathstroke. I never said Kano was a bad character. I did not even suggest any particular buffs unlike certain players from other forums.

I did not trash Kano or the Kano community, but I will gladly trash you and @Youphemism for acting like Mortal Kombat X and Kano authorities when neither one of you has the slightest idea what he is talking about. You two fools have spewed ignorance in this forum for a while. Suggesting that Cybernetic Kano is able to win with nothing but zoning and footsies demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the game's meta game, even at a rudimentary level.

If players from the Kano community do not wish to wake up to a rude awakening, as I did when I fought the YOMI players, I highly suggest they pay more attention to @SaltShaker and, as much as it pains me to say this, to @dribirut and entirely ignore both of you.

 

[SaltShaker]

Damn. It's getting Black Dragon style up in this thread.

 

[Rude]

I made no comparisons to Deathstroke. I never said Kano was a bad character. I did not even suggest any particular buffs unlike certain players from other forums.

I did not trash Kano or the Kano community, but I will gladly trash you and @Youphemism for acting like Mortal Kombat X and Kano authorities when neither one of you has the slightest idea what he is talking about. You two fools have spewed ignorance in this forum for a while. Suggesting that Cybernetic Kano is able to win with nothing but zoning and footsies demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the game's meta game, even at a rudimentary level.

If players from the Kano community do not wish to wake up to a rude awakening, as I did when I fought the YOMI players, I highly suggest they pay more attention to @SaltShaker and, as much as it pains me to say this, to @dribirut and entirely ignore both of you.

What ignorance specifically?

I said that Kano can win. He can. I never claimed he was top tier. If you actually read what was said, i said he was upper mid and tournament viable.

Now you can be defensive now that I've called you out on your character community gimmick. That's fine and that's really all your reaction is.

I said that Kano can compete. Which is true. I said that Kano could use a damage buff. Also true.

I said that the reality(something you seldom live in), is that he doesn't have an overhead or big damage, so players who choose to play Kano need to work with the tools they have. Which is just practical.

You also said Kano was upper mid or mid.

So what have i said that isn't true?
Was it when i said Kano had solid footsie tools and could use them to compete with a lot of the cast?

Because Insayne and King Hippo said as much as well.

I didn't say he was the best character in the game. I didn't say he 7-3 the cast and i didn't say he won easily.

I even said that yes, Kano has to work hard to win.

So what bills am i selling?
What have i said that is over upplaying?

Would you rather i act like the psychotics in the Kitana forums and attack anyone who says something positive about the character?

Seriously. How sad.

Yes i am well aware of how momentum heavily and setplay dominant the game is. I even AGREED with you in your thread, you idiot.

However, Cyber Kano doesn't have a 50/50. So these players need to work with the tools they have.

How DARE I suggest that my character community cope and make do with what we have, right?

If you want to blow me up, at least try to do it with something I've actually done.

Unlike you, Dave, you miserable troll, I've done nothing but help and contribute in a positive way to these forums.

Writing up basics to the character for those that need it, helping in match ups that i have experience in, etc.

Again, unlike you and that paste slurping idiot dribirut, at least I'm TRYING to make these forums and enjoyable, supportful, helpful place to be.

What have YOU done, besides shit on the game and spread negativity?

If anyone needs to be ignored, it's you.

You provide nothing of value besides negativity to these forums.

 

[Rude]

You know, I'm still trying to figure out what these bills I've been selling are. Hell, I've never even said Cyber Kano didn't have losing matches. He most definitely does. Saltshaker and i agree on a lot of them.

How dare i assist my character community in a positive and helpful way, you guys. I should tell you all to stop playing the variation altogether or campeign for buffs, right?

Because that's productive.

 

[FlappyDaniel]

Guys...I'm afraid MK1 Kano is gonna hurt himself

 

[DFC]

So. Who else agrees that MK1 Kano needs a better Winpose?

And god dammit, Kano i SOLID. He's not a world beater, you're not going to cruise control with him, but putting in the work will yield positive results over plenty of characters.. He seems to be at that sweet spot where buffing him seems unnecessary despite having things that need fixing, but nerfing him seems uncalled for despite having some really good tools.

 

[dribirut]

@dribirut

He's lower mid to mid. I don't know why that's so unbelievable

 

[SaltShaker]

He's lower mid to mid. I don't know why that's so unbelievable

Yea personally I think he's somewhere in the middle of the pack currently. I just had to tag you on that one because Coach's comments were like the polar opposite of your earlier posts lol.

 

[DFC]

Yea personally I think he's somewhere in the middle of the pack currently. I just had to tag you on that one because Coach's comments were like the polar opposite of your earlier posts lol.

That's exactly where all his variations are at. He's in that sweet spot where none of his variations are outright bad, but none are so amazing that it's the go-to. Every single one has good strengths and tough weaknesses, but you can win with each one.

Though they could all do with a little safe choke here(and actually plus on hit), a B1 (overhead) extension there. Nothing drastic as changing a move (unless that move is up-laser) or giving him massive plus frames or a big damage boost or an overhead 50/50 on every variation.

-

To branch off, I really, really (really) like Kano, but I feel like I've plateaued with him, while most of the people I play with are getting better, or simply getting better at playing me. I don't really know what to do in this. I can't afford to go to ECT or Summer Jam, despite both being like 4-5 hours away on train(Not to mention I have NO IDEA about any local scene here).

 

[SaltShaker]

Yea I agree. Only thing I'll say though is I believe he needs those adjustments. If multiple characters are going to get buffed each patch, Kano needs to get in on that or he'll fall too low. I'm going to make an actual thread on this when the time is right, but he won't be able to just "stay a good enough character" without getting something.

Reminds me a little of Raven in Injustice who was said to be "good enough and doesn't need anything, mid tier" for most of Injustice. Then when people realized she wasn't that good and needed buffs patching was long over. I don't want the same thing to happen to Kano. He may not be a bad character by any means, but he will be needing some buffs as patches roll to stay competitive as time goes. Either that or significant nerfs to the 50/50's of characters and to the top tiers.

 

[Youphemism]

I made no comparisons to Deathstroke. I never said Kano was a bad character. I did not even suggest any particular buffs unlike certain players from other forums.

I did not trash Kano or the Kano community, but I will gladly trash you and @Youphemism for acting like Mortal Kombat X and Kano authorities when neither one of you has the slightest idea what he is talking about. You two fools have spewed ignorance in this forum for a while. Suggesting that Cybernetic Kano is able to win with nothing but zoning and footsies demonstrates a complete lack of understanding of the game's meta game, even at a rudimentary level.

If players from the Kano community do not wish to wake up to a rude awakening, as I did when I fought the YOMI players, I highly suggest they pay more attention to @SaltShaker and, as much as it pains me to say this, to @dribirut and entirely ignore both of you.

Please go ahead and quote me saying that you can win with nothing but zoning and footsies. Obviously you have to space out your opponent, anti-air, trip guard, whiff punish, everything fundamental to winning a match. You can't win with any character just with zoning and footsies. But of course you think what you want because you believe you're right and are under the assumption that you are the Omega Kano, else you wouldn't be strolling around these forums acting like an ass discrediting people who, oh I don't know, actually do something in competition with him.

As for insinuating Rude and I are acting like authorities on the character and/or game stop being a hypocrite and look at how you're posting. I haven't seen you do anything with the character in competition either so if anything you have just as little reason to suggest we don't know what we're talking about. Even Coach Steve agrees with us and he's a much more successful Kano than you are as of yet so there is no reason to listen to you. I suggest you go and prove that you are a credible source of information for this character before dragging around unnecessary negativity.

Agreeing with Saltshaker is agreeing with us because he's making the same points Rude and I are so well done for clearly being biased to certain members of the community. As for agreeing with dribirut who is claiming the character could actually be "lower mid/low" tier, well...whatever you say lol.

Sorry he's not Freddy Krueger, if you want your precious zoner with 50/50 mixups go play Summoner Quan Chi. Meanwhile we'll be here making the most of our characters tools (which we know we probably lack in comparison to other characters in the game but can still win with) and providing healthy competitive discussion like good and bad matchups and why, tech, "mixups" and gameplans.