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General/Other - Kano Kano General Discussion Thread

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
They work fine its just pretty difficult. I think he's top tier already even before I know about that stuff.





My intention was not to bash anyone's opinion, as I was just scrolling through and seen some statements here and there. Now sure, cybernetic Kano lacks the crazy high lows that some other characters (and cutthroat) have to offer. And while it may seem like you're working hard, I never felt that way. Because people always end up killing themselves trying to get in. Kano has a great Down 3/4. Easily one of the best in the game. A low string that is +1 on block and confirmable. And then there are grabs which are very strong in this game. When you mix all of that in you can play a very solid up close game because you're almost always going to be safe. Now on top of that, you have Back 1, which, while it is -2 on block, the entire string after is a safe, true, confirmable string that you can always use and mix up between B1, B13 and B13, 2+4 (unsafe to very few characters, optional Meter burn that wont come out on block). B1 is also a very consistent anti air for when they get frustrated in trying to get past you on the ground.

Mid projectiles are always good too, and the EX one blows up armor, is plus on block and confirmable anywhere on screen, including full screen.

Don't think about it as working hard. You're really not. You're the one setting the pace for the match and your objective is to just try and remain in control of the ground while they do all these risky things just to get one hit on you (by then you'll probably have a breaker anyway)

As far as damage goes, 25% no bar from 1 hit is good. You have to hit them 4 times (less because of the chip and grabs they'll take getting in).
Myself and Youphemism have been saying this stuff from the beginning.

I'm glad other offline, successful tournament players agree.

I should refer to this from now on when certain people come in here just to troll and call him bottom tier.

Thank you.
 

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
Yeah I'm not sure why there's doom and gloom. I may disagree with Mr. Coach that he's top tier, but he's solid and will probably be able to compete if you put the time and effort in.

Big thing to me is that his fireball functions like an SF fireball in a game that is essentially Tekken. They can jump over it still sure, but the odds of you being able to backdash or just plain block before you get hit is pretty high in your favor, and they are fast enough to where they are just straight not reactable at mid range. Like even with Scorpion, are they really just gonna bonkers teleport at mid range on the off chance they read a fireball? No, definitely no, positively no, decidedly no. They are low damage, but they serve as one of your main pokes and that is where it's great. I've been counterpoking the god tier d4's with knife, and they pretty much just have to take it; can't jump out, can't poke back, pretty much just have to guess on armor. And when you've got them holding down just to block a knife, well then you can start your little meta of b1, b13, run up d4, etc. like Mr. Coach outlined. He has good armored moves and one that leads to a full combo in Kano Ball and Laser blast, so I'd take the risk to try and blow up someone getting a little too antsy.

The one thing I can agree about is his damage, which may be a little less than average, but once you've got them doing crazy stuff to avoid the knives like guessing jumps at mid range and attempting an armored move half screen, those hits add up. Now if only his jump was better :p
 

ando1184

Noob
I'm thinking of maining Kano. Cybernatic has the tools for heavy zoning and people have compared him to Guile/Sagat in Street Fighter. Anyone agree?

Does anyone have any thoughts of Street Fighter counterparts for Kano's other variations? I'm coming from a SF background so this really helps me better understand the character. Thanks!
Footsies like Guile
Kano ball = blanka ball (acts just like blanka's in that he gets hit outta it or it trades a lot)
Knives = ryu FB
MB Kano ball = Shoryuken (converts to combos and your true reversal)
Commando command throws = poor man's zangief version
Commando/Cyber B1 = Hugo's standing MP (advances forward/safe/combo starter)
 

Dukmunky

Arms Dealer, including all 4 of Goro's
Yeah I'm not sure why there's doom and gloom. I may disagree with Mr. Coach that he's top tier, but he's solid and will probably be able to compete if you put the time and effort in.

Big thing to me is that his fireball functions like an SF fireball in a game that is essentially Tekken. They can jump over it still sure, but the odds of you being able to backdash or just plain block before you get hit is pretty high in your favor, and they are fast enough to where they are just straight not reactable at mid range. Like even with Scorpion, are they really just gonna bonkers teleport at mid range on the off chance they read a fireball? No, definitely no, positively no, decidedly no. They are low damage, but they serve as one of your main pokes and that is where it's great. I've been counterpoking the god tier d4's with knife, and they pretty much just have to take it; can't jump out, can't poke back, pretty much just have to guess on armor. And when you've got them holding down just to block a knife, well then you can start your little meta of b1, b13, run up d4, etc. like Mr. Coach outlined. He has good armored moves and one that leads to a full combo in Kano Ball and Laser blast, so I'd take the risk to try and blow up someone getting a little too antsy.

The one thing I can agree about is his damage, which may be a little less than average, but once you've got them doing crazy stuff to avoid the knives like guessing jumps at mid range and attempting an armored move half screen, those hits add up. Now if only his jump was better :p
Well, here's hoping for a small damage buff. Or no health loss on power up /kappa
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Well, here's hoping for a small damage buff. Or no health loss on power up /kappa
I wouldn't mind losing health for the buff if it didn't take so much damn health away. Or go away when you're hit. Because of this I never even use the 1 bar power up unless it's the Final Round. If you get them in the corner and they guess wrong while buffed, they're usually dead though.

Cyber surely needs a damage buff though.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Do you guys agree that cybernetic Kano loses to characters with strong mixups if the opposing player decides to never jump against the knives and just blocks and walks forward? I could be wrong but it seems to me like this strategy kind of destroys him.

Knives have low pushback on block and walk speed in this game is good so you can quickly get in on Kano by blocking and walking forward. Bad players will jump and get blown up by b1 but I don't think you need to risk this - just walk forward.

Once you get closer - Kano has good normals but he has no good mixups. Mixing up b1, b1, with b13 and b1 grab is mediocre compared to other characters tools. Ex knives into grab vs b1 is slightly better but too expensive (in meter terms) for what it gets you. If you are using these tools against anyone with actual MKX offensive tools (i.e., D vorah, Erron black, any good character), you will lose unless you massively outplay your opponent.

It seems to me like Kano appears better than he really is right now because opponents make a lot of mistakes (jump a lot, try to poke too much against pressure when they should just block and take the throw), and he has a simple game plan that doesn't change too much in a lot of matchups.

I think he's bottom ten at best if he's not patched. That doesn't mean he's bad - I think the bottom ten in this game might be the best bottom ten I've seen in an FG. He can certainly win if you outplay your opponent. But I really doubt there are ten characters worse than him.

My honest opinion.
No way is he a bottom ten variation in the game, he can handle himself well against the majority of the cast. The only characters that give him real trouble are teleport characters like Scorpion and Ermac who can ALSO put you into a fucking vortex off of them ( fuck those matchups by the way -_________- ) and characters with counterzoning tools. Otherwise he goes at least even against most pure rushdown variations, and considering the amount of rushdown variations in the game I'd say he's fine. Being mid tier isn't a bad thing in this game considering everyone has the tools, it's just that other characters have insane 50/50s or 33/33/33s that make them much better. Remove the 50/50s and you'll see Kano becomes better. He's well balanced, that's the main thing :)
They work fine its just pretty difficult. I think he's top tier already even before I know about that stuff.





My intention was not to bash anyone's opinion, as I was just scrolling through and seen some statements here and there. Now sure, cybernetic Kano lacks the crazy high lows that some other characters (and cutthroat) have to offer. And while it may seem like you're working hard, I never felt that way. Because people always end up killing themselves trying to get in. Kano has a great Down 3/4. Easily one of the best in the game. A low string that is +1 on block and confirmable. And then there are grabs which are very strong in this game. When you mix all of that in you can play a very solid up close game because you're almost always going to be safe. Now on top of that, you have Back 1, which, while it is -2 on block, the entire string after is a safe, true, confirmable string that you can always use and mix up between B1, B13 and B13, 2+4 (unsafe to very few characters, optional Meter burn that wont come out on block). B1 is also a very consistent anti air for when they get frustrated in trying to get past you on the ground.

Mid projectiles are always good too, and the EX one blows up armor, is plus on block and confirmable anywhere on screen, including full screen.

Don't think about it as working hard. You're really not. You're the one setting the pace for the match and your objective is to just try and remain in control of the ground while they do all these risky things just to get one hit on you (by then you'll probably have a breaker anyway)

As far as damage goes, 25% no bar from 1 hit is good. You have to hit them 4 times (less because of the chip and grabs they'll take getting in).

Cyber surely needs a damage buff though.
Not really, he gets 40% 1 bar at least in the corner and mid 30s midscreen. That's normal.
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
Do you guys agree that cybernetic Kano loses to characters with strong mixups if the opposing player decides to never jump against the knives and just blocks and walks forward? I could be wrong but it seems to me like this strategy kind of destroys him.

Knives have low pushback on block and walk speed in this game is good so you can quickly get in on Kano by blocking and walking forward. Bad players will jump and get blown up by b1 but I don't think you need to risk this - just walk forward.

Once you get closer - Kano has good normals but he has no good mixups. Mixing up b1, b1, with b13 and b1 grab is mediocre compared to other characters tools. Ex knives into grab vs b1 is slightly better but too expensive (in meter terms) for what it gets you. If you are using these tools against anyone with actual MKX offensive tools (i.e., D vorah, Erron black, any good character), you will lose unless you massively outplay your opponent.

It seems to me like Kano appears better than he really is right now because opponents make a lot of mistakes (jump a lot, try to poke too much against pressure when they should just block and take the throw), and he has a simple game plan that doesn't change too much in a lot of matchups.

I think he's bottom ten at best if he's not patched. That doesn't mean he's bad - I think the bottom ten in this game might be the best bottom ten I've seen in an FG. He can certainly win if you outplay your opponent. But I really doubt there are ten characters worse than him.

My honest opinion.
Your analysis is correct.

It is too early to predict accurate tier positions, but Cybernetic Kano is probably no higher than a mid tier character. He is very good at something that is not very relevant to the meta game. You need easy pressure and simple 50/50 mix ups to be top tier in this game. He probably loses to most top tier characters because he cannot generate adequate pressure and offense.
 

Dukmunky

Arms Dealer, including all 4 of Goro's
Your analysis is correct.

It is too early to predict accurate tier positions, but Cybernetic Kano is probably no higher than a mid tier character. He is very good at something that is not very relevant to the meta game. You need easy pressure and simple 50/50 mix ups to be top tier in this game. He probably loses to most top tier characters because he cannot generate adequate pressure and offense.
So you're saying cutthroat might be more viable?
 

ando1184

Noob
what moves are wrong in kanos frame data?
B23,1+3 and f3,1+3, maybe some others but those stick out the most. It would also be nice if the side notes were throughout the frame data. What I mean is on the jump attacks you see how it states njp is mid on the way up, well it should state stuff like MB buff has armor or how much damage over time it takes off of him when activating normal buff in cutthroat
 

OG Mannimal

OG "OG Mannimal" Mannimal
To me, cybernetic Kano can win against any character, provided that your spacing is on point. You're entire game plan should be focused on getting them to jump, and b1-ing everytime. Obviously there are characters whose jumps make it harder to AA, Cassie and Kotal come to mind, but you can still do it with good spacing. If they walk forward, which is incorrectly deemed the way to beat Cyber, then you can apply pressure via b1, b2, d4, f4, etc... Also canceling things into EX knives is extremely underrated.

And no Cybernetic doesn't need a damage buff at all, no idea where that came from.

I agree w/ Coach Steve and Flap about Commandos potential.
 

Paul the Octopus

Slow Starter
No way is he a bottom ten variation in the game, he can handle himself well against the majority of the cast. The only characters that give him real trouble are teleport characters like Scorpion and Ermac who can ALSO put you into a fucking vortex off of them ( fuck those matchups by the way -_________- ) and characters with counterzoning tools. Otherwise he goes at least even against most pure rushdown variations, and considering the amount of rushdown variations in the game I'd say he's fine. Being mid tier isn't a bad thing in this game considering everyone has the tools, it's just that other characters have insane 50/50s or 33/33/33s that make them much better. Remove the 50/50s and you'll see Kano becomes better. He's well balanced, that's the main thing :)



Not really, he gets 40% 1 bar at least in the corner and mid 30s midscreen. That's normal.
Yeah I agree cyber Kano is definitely not a bottom ten variation. Actually what I meant - and this may just be my own odd way of ranking characters - is if you take the best variation of every character and rank them Kano is probably 16th to 21st, which would make him bottom ten in a 26 character game (excluding Tanya for now bc idk anything about her). I'd put the following all above him (no particular order): D'Vorah, Raiden, Erron, Scorpion, Sub, Kung Jin, Kung Lao, Sonya, Cassie, Jax, Kenshi, Cage, Quan, maybe Shinnok, maybe Ermac, and maybe Ferra Torr. Hence 16th or lower.

I also agree he's well balanced - the problem is many characters are not. I think he goes even with a lot of the cast, loses moderately to the top characters and has one or two really tough ones like scorpion. However a matchup chart of mostly 5-5s and 4-6s sounds like lower mid tier / low tier to me... And again I think he can totally win if you outplay your opponent - being "bottom ten" in this game is nowhere near as crippling as many others.

I'm not even suggesting buffs, just saying how I see it. Also, I'm in no way declaring this as the objective truth - just my opinion at this point in time. Open to being wrong but I've yet to really be convinced. Would love to be proved wrong by a Kano taking top eight at a stacked major or two. I don't play Kano anymore (not related to character strength, just decided I liked other characters more), but would be great to see an honest character do work at a major.
 
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OG Mannimal

OG "OG Mannimal" Mannimal
Seriously where is all this stuff about scorpion being one of Kanos worst MUs? I don't see it at all. Sure you can't just mash knives all game but that doesn't mean he loses.
 

Hitoshura

Head Cage
To me, cybernetic Kano can win against any character, provided that your spacing is on point. You're entire game plan should be focused on getting them to jump, and b1-ing everytime. Obviously there are characters whose jumps make it harder to AA, Cassie and Kotal come to mind, but you can still do it with good spacing. If they walk forward, which is incorrectly deemed the way to beat Cyber, then you can apply pressure via b1, b2, d4, f4, etc... Also canceling things into EX knives is extremely underrated.

And no Cybernetic doesn't need a damage buff at all, no idea where that came from.

I agree w/ Coach Steve and Flap about Commandos potential.
Still a bit of an annoyance to win with Cybernetic. The opponent can block low all day until he sees a njp. He has no mixup potential, so opening people up is an issue. He could use an overhead, but not one that can get a full combo off. Make it a 2-3 hitting string that isn't special cancelable. I agree with the notion of not needing a damage buff. His damage is fine. If any move(s) needs to be buffed it's up ball and kano ball. I do not like the fact these two moves can be stopped by anything. It loses to grabs, specials, strings, pokes, sneezing, breathing, and even just getting glared at stops it. It feels like its hurtbox exceeds its hitbox by a decent margin. It's his only move to get the hell out of pressure minus backdash. And Kano seems to tremble a bit under pressure, so I think that would help him against such a coin toss meta. I mean, one can't fuzzy guard any moves under 20 frames, so I can see why people think scorpian is a bad mu, but he really isn't. Scorpian just happens to be really good. Since fuzzy guarding doesn't exist he can take advantage of that, have a coin toss playstyle, and remain safe if ones guesses right against his 50/50 mixup. He takes the game and molds it in his favor.

Then again, what do I know. I'm not a pro. Just some dude laying in bed with his undies.
 
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DFC

Cutthroat Truther
Well, you were certainly misleading, by saying you were with and not in. I'll just have to retool this. You're in your Black Dragon Undies, while cuddling with your Kano Dakimakura
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Yeah I agree cyber Kano is definitely not a bottom ten variation. Actually what I meant - and this may just be my own odd way of ranking characters - is if you take the best variation of every character and rank them Kano is probably 16th to 21st, which would make him bottom ten in a 26 character game (excluding Tanya for now bc idk anything about her). I'd put the following all above him (no particular order): D'Vorah, Raiden, Erron, Scorpion, Sub, Kung Jin, Kung Lao, Sonya, Cassie, Jax, Kenshi, Cage, Quan, maybe Shinnok, maybe Ermac, and maybe Ferra Torr. Hence 16th or lower.

I also agree he's well balanced - the problem is many characters are not. I think he goes even with a lot of the cast, loses moderately to the top characters and has one or two really tough ones like scorpion. However a matchup chart of mostly 5-5s and 4-6s sounds like lower mid tier / low tier to me... And again I think he can totally win if you outplay your opponent - being "bottom ten" in this game is nowhere near as crippling as many others.

I'm not even suggesting buffs, just saying how I see it. Also, I'm in no way declaring this as the objective truth - just my opinion at this point in time. Open to being wrong but I've yet to really be convinced. Would love to be proved wrong by a Kano taking top eight at a stacked major or two. I don't play Kano anymore (not related to character strength, just decided I liked other characters more), but would be great to see an honest character do work at a major.
Lets see the matchups then against these 16 variations, I'll put if (at least I think) Kano Wins, Loses or goes Even:
D'Vorah - Wins, Raiden - Even/Loses, Erron - depends on what variation you're thinking of but probably Wins, Scorpion - Loses, Sub - Even/Wins, Kung Jin - Even/Wins, Kung Lao - Even/Wins, Sonya - Wins, Cassie - Even/Wins, Jax - Even/Wins, Kenshi - not sure, Cage - Wins, Quan - Even/Loses, Shinnok - Even, Ermac - Even/Loses, Ferra/Torr - Wins

so (at least I think) he wins against at least 5 of those variations, goes even with at least 1 of them and loses, at worst, against 4 of them. That's decent. Oh and I'd guess he probably loses to Tanya because holy fuck her mobility is insane.

I think once we all discuss matchups more in-depth we'll realise that he can handle himself against a lot of the cast and slow down the rushdown pace of the game better than most. Playing Cybernetic Kano means taking advantage of people's impatience, throwing out so many knives seemingly relentlessly that they think they're safe to jump over them then anti-airing them or trip guarding them for their mistake. His "mixups" come from staggers, ie doing B31 throw or B312 because the 2 takes a while to come out and you can't tell if the string is being continued or not in that small amount of time. I mean yeah he's probably not S tier but he does pretty decent against a lot of the cast.
Still a bit of an annoyance to win with Cybernetic. The opponent can block low all day until he sees a njp. He has no mixup potential, so opening people up is an issue. He could use an overhead, but not one that can get a full combo off. Make it a 2-3 hitting string that isn't special cancelable. I agree with the notion of not needing a damage buff. His damage is fine. If any move(s) needs to be buffed it's up ball and kano ball. I do not like the fact these two moves can be stopped by anything. It loses to grabs, specials, strings, pokes, sneezing, breathing, and even just getting glared at stops it. It feels like its hurtbox exceeds its hitbox by a decent margin. It's his only move to get the hell out of pressure minus backdash. And Kano seems to tremble a bit under pressure, so I think that would help him against such a coin toss meta. I mean, one can't fuzzy guard any moves under 20 frames, so I can see why people think scorpian is a bad mu, but he really isn't. Scorpian just happens to be really good. Since fuzzy guarding doesn't exist he can take advantage of that, have a coin toss playstyle, and remain safe if ones guesses right against his 50/50 mixup. He takes the game and molds it in his favor.

Then again, what do I know. I'm not a pro. Just some dude laying in bed with his undies.
Well you're describing him like a rushdown character which is not how he should be played. As for "no mixup potential" that's incorrect, he does have "mixups" they're just not the traditional overhead/low ones. You can open people up with throws you know, I think that's something a lot of people don't get.
He doesn't need an overhead but if he got one it'd be a bonus.
I've never been stuffed out of up ball really, it's a pretty fast move so if you do it at the right time it's pretty effective and I've anti-aired with it a bunch of times. Kano ball is only something that should be used from full screen and/or on a read.
Up Ball is most definitely not his only way out of pressure, EX Kano Ball into full combo and EX Eye Laser into full combo are also more than viable get off me options.
Fuzzy guarding (at least in MK) is blocking one way to cover a faster option then changing your block to cover the slower option, so it is possible but you're not going to get it consistently because people can mix up the timing that they do their moves to mess with that. You can fuzzy Scorpion's vortex options on reaction though since his overhead is 25 frames and in Inferno his overhead demon is slower than his low demon. Scorpion is a bad matchup because of several things - his vortex/mixups, mobility, anti-zoning (which changes how Cybernetic Kano has to play, and not in a good way), hard to anti-air jump kicks/attacks and in some cases pressure.