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General/Other - Kano Kano General Discussion Thread

Hitoshura

Head Cage
Lets see the matchups then against these 16 variations, I'll put if (at least I think) Kano Wins, Loses or goes Even:
D'Vorah - Wins, Raiden - Even/Loses, Erron - depends on what variation you're thinking of but probably Wins, Scorpion - Loses, Sub - Even/Wins, Kung Jin - Even/Wins, Kung Lao - Even/Wins, Sonya - Wins, Cassie - Even/Wins, Jax - Even/Wins, Kenshi - not sure, Cage - Wins, Quan - Even/Loses, Shinnok - Even, Ermac - Even/Loses, Ferra/Torr - Wins

so (at least I think) he wins against at least 5 of those variations, goes even with at least 1 of them and loses, at worst, against 4 of them. That's decent. Oh and I'd guess he probably loses to Tanya because holy fuck her mobility is insane.

I think once we all discuss matchups more in-depth we'll realise that he can handle himself against a lot of the cast and slow down the rushdown pace of the game better than most. Playing Cybernetic Kano means taking advantage of people's impatience, throwing out so many knives seemingly relentlessly that they think they're safe to jump over them then anti-airing them or trip guarding them for their mistake. His "mixups" come from staggers, ie doing B31 throw or B312 because the 2 takes a while to come out and you can't tell if the string is being continued or not in that small amount of time. I mean yeah he's probably not S tier but he does pretty decent against a lot of the cast.

Well you're describing him like a rushdown character which is not how he should be played. As for "no mixup potential" that's incorrect, he does have "mixups" they're just not the traditional overhead/low ones. You can open people up with throws you know, I think that's something a lot of people don't get.
He doesn't need an overhead but if he got one it'd be a bonus.
I've never been stuffed out of up ball really, it's a pretty fast move so if you do it at the right time it's pretty effective and I've anti-aired with it a bunch of times. Kano ball is only something that should be used from full screen and/or on a read.
Up Ball is most definitely not his only way out of pressure, EX Kano Ball into full combo and EX Eye Laser into full combo are also more than viable get off me options.
Fuzzy guarding (at least in MK) is blocking one way to cover a faster option then changing your block to cover the slower option, so it is possible but you're not going to get it consistently because people can mix up the timing that they do their moves to mess with that. You can fuzzy Scorpion's vortex options on reaction though since his overhead is 25 frames and in Inferno his overhead demon is slower than his low demon. Scorpion is a bad matchup because of several things - his vortex/mixups, mobility, anti-zoning (which changes how Cybernetic Kano has to play, and not in a good way), hard to anti-air jump kicks/attacks and in some cases pressure.
I'm not describing him as a rush down character. He has problems opening people up. Throws are good, but they can be teched after a while. People will catch on you know. Up ball and Kano ball can get stuffed. I've practiced it with people. Is Scorpian's overhead 25 frames? Seems faster than that.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Seriously where is all this stuff about scorpion being one of Kanos worst MUs? I don't see it at all. Sure you can't just mash knives all game but that doesn't mean he loses.
For sure he needs a damage buff. The damage you get in Cyber for 1 bar as a BnB pales in comparison to the majority of the cast. He could use an extra 2-3%. It wouldn't be bad damage if other characters weren't breaking life bars with full screen wall carry from mid screen or doing near 40% 1 bar BnB's.

As far as Scorpion, unless you're counting random bum Scorpions I have no idea how you can't call this a bad MU in Cyber. I play a couple of monster Scorpions for more hours than I'd like to admit, and there's no area of the screen or in the gameplay where you have an advantage. You're either at an even point or at a disadvantage point. Any time it's a win its because you significantly outplayed and outsmarted the opponent. It always feels uphill.

I'm not saying Kano is bad. I think he's a strong mid tier character. But he does have some weaknesses, especially in comparison to the over compensated characters.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
I'm not describing him as a rush down character. He has problems opening people up.
Do you see my point now? Look at those two sentences beside each other lol.
For sure he needs a damage buff. The damage you get in Cyber for 1 bar as a BnB pales in comparison to the majority of the cast.
He doesn't need a damage buff, his damage is fine. I mean yeah 35% 1 bar midscreen isn't the greatest but at least he's not Cassie or Shinnok or Demo Sonya lol. You make up for the rest of the damage in chip from zoning with knives anyway.
 

Hitoshura

Head Cage
Do you see my point now? Look at those two sentences beside each other lol.
There's a difference in going in to open people up and being left in a neutral game after one blocks an opponents string or poke and you want to open them up to get them off of you and continue to play the game that Cybernetic Kano wants the opponent to play.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
There's a difference in going in to open people up and being left in a neutral game after one blocks an opponents string or poke and you want to open them up to get them off of you and continue to play the game that Cybernetic Kano wants the opponent to play.
Most pokes are negative and/or punishable so if anyone pokes you you may as well poke back and retreat. If they do a string and you block it and you know they're going to follow up you can EX Kano Ball them out of their followup into full combo back to full screen. This is something I did against Cassie players pre-patch and continue to do, usually they'd do B124 on block and if I didn't interrupt it but blocked it they were +2 because of the old bug so they thought a 7 frame D3 afterwards would stop Kano from poking them or interrupting any followup to her pressure. EX Kano Ball cancel after B124 would catch them out and give me not only a free combo but the positioning I wanted. You can use this threat throughout the rest of your match for multiple characters to make them respect you and you can get a free backdash or poke or throw or whatever. You've got to be resourceful and come up with your own "mixups" when he doens't have an overhead :p
 

Hitoshura

Head Cage
Most pokes are negative and/or punishable so if anyone pokes you you may as well poke back and retreat. If they do a string and you block it and you know they're going to follow up you can EX Kano Ball them out of their followup into full combo back to full screen. This is something I did against Cassie players pre-patch and continue to do, usually they'd do B124 on block and if I didn't interrupt it but blocked it they were +2 because of the old bug so they thought a 7 frame D3 afterwards would stop Kano from poking them or interrupting any followup to her pressure. EX Kano Ball cancel after B124 would catch them out and give me not only a free combo but the positioning I wanted. You can use this threat throughout the rest of your match for multiple characters to make them respect you and you can get a free backdash or poke or throw or whatever. You've got to be resourceful and come up with your own "mixups" when he doens't have an overhead :p
I know most pokes are negative/punishable on block. I own the game. What if your opponent is actually good at this game and knows when their poke is blocked and needs to play neutral again? Then what? You just keep taking turns poking until someone lands a hit on a poke which means they can throw out a string which they have to block. Oh, wait. Kano has no overheads. Looks like they'll block it every time which means you can get them off of you unless they mess up. This is why MKX has a coin toss meta. Relying on human error to make up for no overhead is kind of silly. Sure, this will work on people who make mistakes, but there are players who know character mu's and know exactly how to handle themselves. I play people like that once a week. I can throw them, try a njp on their wakeup, but ultimately it does nothing. One has to rely on gimmicks to open people up? Since when has gimmicks been legit in a fighter? Gimmicks are what they are. You figure out what to do against them and that's it.
 
I know most pokes are negative/punishable on block. I own the game. What if your opponent is actually good at this game and knows when their poke is blocked and needs to play neutral again? Then what? You just keep taking turns poking until someone lands a hit on a poke which means they can throw out a string which they have to block. Oh, wait. Kano has no overheads. Looks like they'll block it every time which means you can get them off of you unless they mess up. This is why MKX has a coin toss meta. Relying on human error to make up for no overhead is kind of silly. Sure, this will work on people who make mistakes, but there are players who know character mu's and know exactly how to handle themselves. I play people like that once a week. I can throw them, try a njp on their wakeup, but ultimately it does nothing. One has to rely on gimmicks to open people up? Since when has gimmicks been legit in a fighter? Gimmicks are what they are. You figure out what to do against them and that's it.
kano doesnt have a ridiculous backdash for no reason. if you dont win up close, go back to zoning.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
I know most pokes are negative/punishable on block. I own the game. What if your opponent is actually good at this game and knows when their poke is blocked and needs to play neutral again? Then what? You just keep taking turns poking until someone lands a hit on a poke which means they can throw out a string which they have to block. Oh, wait. Kano has no overheads. Looks like they'll block it every time which means you can get them off of you unless they mess up. This is why MKX has a coin toss meta. Relying on human error to make up for no overhead is kind of silly. Sure, this will work on people who make mistakes, but there are players who know character mu's and know exactly how to handle themselves. I play people like that once a week. I can throw them, try a njp on their wakeup, but ultimately it does nothing. One has to rely on gimmicks to open people up? Since when has gimmicks been legit in a fighter? Gimmicks are what they are. You figure out what to do against them and that's it.
Why would you keep poking? Did you not read what I said? Poke and backdash, run away and zone again like Cybernetic Kano is supposed to. Cancel a poke into knife for hit advantage once in while.
It's not gimmicks, it's footsies. Plenty of top players get away with gimmicks all the time anyway but the point is humans don't play perfectly, they're going to make mistakes once in while.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
I know most pokes are negative/punishable on block. I own the game. What if your opponent is actually good at this game and knows when their poke is blocked and needs to play neutral again? Then what? You just keep taking turns poking until someone lands a hit on a poke which means they can throw out a string which they have to block. Oh, wait. Kano has no overheads. Looks like they'll block it every time which means you can get them off of you unless they mess up. This is why MKX has a coin toss meta. Relying on human error to make up for no overhead is kind of silly. Sure, this will work on people who make mistakes, but there are players who know character mu's and know exactly how to handle themselves. I play people like that once a week. I can throw them, try a njp on their wakeup, but ultimately it does nothing. One has to rely on gimmicks to open people up? Since when has gimmicks been legit in a fighter? Gimmicks are what they are. You figure out what to do against them and that's it.
Like @Youphemism said, if you poke on block and read they're gonna mash back you can EX Ball for full combo punish. If you land the poke you need to use the advantage in your favor. Read your opponent. Does he like to mash after you landed a D3? Full combo him. Does he always block? Grab, B31 for more pressure, backdash and zone, etc. It isn't gimmicks at all, that's actually what footsies are comprised of.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Do you see my point now? Look at those two sentences beside each other lol.

He doesn't need a damage buff, his damage is fine. I mean yeah 35% 1 bar midscreen isn't the greatest but at least he's not Cassie or Shinnok or Demo Sonya lol. You make up for the rest of the damage in chip from zoning with knives anyway.
Haha ok good point. Those characters NEED it lol.
 

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
I really don't understand why people are so obsessed with the rushdown of zoning characters on this site, it makes no sense. Zoning characters aren't designed for rushdown, of course they're going to have worse pressure/mixup tools. It's like people don't understand you need to play differently to win with them. Forget staying in on the opponent, you're trying to get away from them or get them away from you. Don't run in because you're not going to win that way, lame them the fuck out. If you want mixups and/or pressure go to Cutthroat, that is not what Cybernetic is designed for.

Look at Gunslinger Erron. It's a lame-as-fuck variation too and it even has mixups but it's considered shit. It's not always about the mixups with zoning variations, you have to play the neutral game too, you need to use the good footsie tools, you need to trip guard, space them out. Anything but rush them down really lol.
 

Hitoshura

Head Cage
Like @Youphemism said, if you poke on block and read they're gonna mash back you can EX Ball for full combo punish. If you land the poke you need to use the advantage in your favor. Read your opponent. Does he like to mash after you landed a D3? Full combo him. Does he always block? Grab, B31 for more pressure, backdash and zone, etc. It isn't gimmicks at all, that's actually what footsies are comprised of.
Forget I said anything. It's just not clicking with people.
 

Hitoshura

Head Cage
I really don't understand why people are so obsessed with the rushdown of zoning characters on this site, it makes no sense. Zoning characters aren't designed for rushdown, of course they're going to have worse pressure/mixup tools. It's like people don't understand you need to play differently to win with them. Forget staying in on the opponent, you're trying to get away from them or get them away from you. Don't run in because you're not going to win that way, lame them the fuck out. If you want mixups and/or pressure go to Cutthroat, that is not what Cybernetic is designed for.

Look at Gunslinger Erron. It's a lame-as-fuck variation too and it even has mixups but it's considered shit. It's not always about the mixups with zoning variations, you have to play the neutral game too, you need to use the good footsie tools, you need to trip guard, space them out. Anything but rush them down really lol.
It's not rushdown! Jesus. What don't you understand?
 

LEGI0N47

I like to play bad characters
So what you're saying is that once chars are in your face you don't have a way to make them guess to push them back because they can just sit in your face low blocking until one of you win the poking/neutral war? Not talking about offense, got it. Um, sorry dude but last I knew that was just footsies based off your characters tools. Perhaps you should seek a new toolbox or practice your options in said scenario. We've all been there, yes we don't have a BS 50/50 OS into combo. We just work with what we do have. I think that's all anyone is trying to get to, the options that we do have and that they're available and...gasp, you may have to take risk/make reads. Sorry they're not Gucci or what other chars can do.
 

Hitoshura

Head Cage
So what you're saying is that once chars are in your face you don't have a way to make them guess to push them back because they can just sit in your face low blocking until one of you win the poking/neutral war? Not talking about offense, got it. Um, sorry dude but last I knew that was just footsies based off your characters tools. Perhaps you should seek a new toolbox or practice your options in said scenario. We've all been there, yes we don't have a BS 50/50 OS into combo. We just work with what we do have. I think that's all anyone is trying to get to, the options that we do have and that they're available and...gasp, you may have to take risk/make reads. Sorry they're not Gucci or what other chars can do.
If you read the first post that started this discussion I suggested an over head string that isn't special cancelable. Maybe something that causes knockdown, so when we catch them with the over head we can get the fuck out and continue zoning. You know, something a variety of zoners have in fighting games. Like, make the f4 in 2f4 an overhead. It leads into hard knockdown and you can back dash away. It's not abusable, because 2 is a high which can be ducked and punished and you don't get combos off of it. It was just a suggestion.
 

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Forget I said anything. It's just not clicking with people.
Because you're basically saying why isn't he Spec Ops Sonya up close in Cyber lol. I don't know what else you expect anyone to say. Maybe you should try out Cutthroat instead.
 

LEGI0N47

I like to play bad characters
If you read the first post that started this discussion I suggested an over head string that isn't special cancelable. Maybe something that causes knockdown, so when we catch them with the over head we can get the fuck out and continue zoning. You know, something a variety of zoners have in fighting games. Like, make the f4 in 2f4 an overhead. It leads into hard knockdown and you can back dash away. It's not abusable, because 2 is a high which can be ducked and punished and you don't get combos off of it. It was just a suggestion.
I think most everybody likes the suggestion given all the BS in the game. But we don't have it and I think people just want to share what we do have. It would be great but I think most try to work around it and use his other strengths. Plus the Kano's I know don't want to become the K & K community crying about our char.
 

NHDR

Noob
Although Cyb. Kano doesn't need buffed rushdown tools, the reality is that he will be forced to play close-range just by virtue of how spacing works. Its not like MK9 or ST, where you can keep your opponent trapped with fireballs nonstop. Your opponent WILL get in at some point, during which it will be your job to throw them back out. And by "get in" I mean he will be able to land a single poke and force you to block. So I can understand the desire to give Cyb. Kano a bit more for the close-range.

I can see where Hitoshura is coming from, but I still think Cyb. Kano is fine. HOWEVER, I also think that cutthroat is going to end up being the most practical variation. Just a hunch of mine.

Discuss?
 

LEGI0N47

I like to play bad characters
I too think Cutthroat is going to end up being very good. For some reason I can't get it to come together for me though. But yes it has a ton of potential IMO. However you are in a very similar place as the other variations of having to make great reads and use a lot of meter just to maintain pressure or keep at some kind of advantage. Bottom line is that no matter the variation Kano is IMO one of the most read and footsie based chars in the game.
 

ando1184

Noob
I think the big issue with this opening people up and footsies argument is being looked at all wrong and @Hitoshura sees that. We are using a character with great footsies yes but it's not SF or Tekken or any other fighter where stuff like that is really strong. We are playing MK and the effectiveness of footsies "and" zoning is heavily outweighed by 50/50's. These 50/50's are also extremely difficult to react to or not reactable at all. Leaving your options to a guess and that really isn't beneficial for Kano at all since our opponent doesn't have to guess most of the time vs him. He really does lack the freebies all the other characters were blessed with and in the future we are going to see him decline on the tier list once everyone catches onto that.

Edit: @LEGI0N47 is right in saying that; Bottom line is that no matter the variation Kano is IMO one of the most read and footsie based chars in the game. And it's this that honestly hurts him in this game since there's so many characters that are played with little to none of this. On top of that, those same characters out damage Kano with those mindless tools and strategies as well :(
 
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Hitoshura

Head Cage
I think the big issue with this opening people up and footsies argument is being looked at all wrong and @Hitoshura sees that. We are using a character with great footsies yes but it's not SF or Tekken or any other fighter where stuff like that is really strong. We are playing MK and the effectiveness of footsies "and" zoning is heavily outweighed by 50/50's. These 50/50's are also extremely difficult to react to or not reactable at all. Leaving your options to a guess and that really isn't beneficial for Kano at all since our opponent doesn't have to guess most of the time vs him. He really does lack the freebies all the other characters were blessed with and in the future we are going to see him decline on the tier list once everyone catches onto that.

Edit: @LEGI0N47 is right in saying that; Bottom line is that no matter the variation Kano is IMO one of the most read and footsie based chars in the game. And it's this that honestly hurts him in this game since there's so many characters that are played with little to none of this. On top of that, those same characters out damage Kano with those mindless tools and strategies as well :(
I wanted to make this one of my points earlier, but I felt as though my throat would have been ripped out and consumed. One the point of your edit, I agree. He's highly footsie based, but MK's footsies are different from traditional footsies. If you took cybernetic Kano and placed him in SF, or some other game he'd be just fine. He'd definitely be a top contender. This games neutral game just works differently.
 

FlappyDaniel

Snappin' spines all day e'ry day.
CT will be used more once his B1 hitbox is buffed slightly. It just too booty right now.

Yeah with Kano you have to play honest and actually out play your opponent. You have to condition them and play footsies very similar to SF in a game where that doesn't really work. My spacing is pretty good imo. And I can peg people with max range normals all day, but singular hits don't matter nearly as much in this game unless you get momentum/advantage in it or you're able to advance.

It's weird for black Dragon to be one of the most honest characters in the game, but he is. No matter what if I win it always feels good....I don't want him to be buffed and become braindead or something where people can say "of course he won...he's playing Kano"
 

ando1184

Noob
I wanted to make this one of my points earlier, but I felt as though my throat would have been ripped out and consumed. One the point of your edit, I agree. He's highly footsie based, but MK's footsies are different from traditional footsies. If you took cybernetic Kano and placed him in SF, or some other game he'd be just fine. He'd definitely be a top contender. This games neutral game just works differently.
And that hurts him overall. His stuff is good, we can't deny that, but he takes a lot more everything to win with if both players are at equal skill levels. We have to be on point with reads, execution, and punishment just to make the opponent respect us. If we are off slightly in any of those our game became that much harder to win. I know this sounds like general fighting game fundamentals but that's kanos game plan in a game that doesn't require or better said, requires less fundamentals to win in. Given it's current state, that's just how it is. I picked up Kano because I knew he'd teach me to be a more patient, and better player and winning with him is so much more rewarding than with a raiden, erron black, or scorpion.