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Strange Symptoms

Strange Symptoms

Noob
21122 said:
Marksman
DB1 - faster startup/recovery - 1st shot is a high and reset are mids.
DF1 - less minus/faster recovery
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I've always liked the idea of Marksman becoming a decent zoner. Would making the shot itself be safe and have better hit advantage be better than plus cancels? Sure it would be say -8 or so, but I would create a mind game as to whether they should risk taking a 10% shot poking out. His zoning would get somewhat better, but he would still have to worry about the recovery. Just some theory crafting but it would be similar to Tremor's pressure. Also, do you think that it is time D3 got some hit advantage? It's not needed but it has always bugged me.
If you are only worried about zoning, one change that would be nice would be given the ability to aim the sniper shot up.
I know it's off topic but I wish that instead of a long rifle variation he would have had a scattergun. Feels redundant to have two variations with zoning like weapons. Or a bowie knife variation, Cutthroat Erron.

Edit: Just realized that you specified only recovery and advantage on sniper shot and not startup or run cancel frames, my bad.
 
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thlityoursloat

thlityoursloat

kick kick
I think these 2 universal buffs would benefit EB immensely:
-F2 is now 2-3 frames faster but has decreased range.
-F3 is now plus enough to combo into EX SG regardless of distance and optionally, a range extension.

That's about it, his 2 mids would actually serve distinct purposes and would actually be useful, F3 for the range and F2 for close range checks.
 
ENiGMA | OCE

ENiGMA | OCE

Real life warlock of Australia - BFBF2
I feel like f3 could be buffed by reducing whiff recovery, increasing it so you could combo EX sand ball midscreen, and allow crushes. That way you could like 21122xEXSandBall rc f3. If you had resources you'd get a combo, and if not you'd continue pressure

Also the issue with 211 tick throws is that you can OS them without armor, so if you tick throw it whiffs, and if you continue the string they keep blocking
 
G

Gofer_MK

Noob
Damn, Erron seems to be sooooo slow... it is like every one is faster, has faster pokes, faster specials, ends strings in a unpunishable range... recovers faster, etc.... it is depressing... the down profiling...

I am not a pro, and am a bit rusty, but but but I got murdered today... by Triborg, Kitana, Jason, Mileena...
 
Strange Symptoms

Strange Symptoms

Noob
Erron's pokes are pretty damn solid. D3 could be sped up with better hit advantage or low profile better but that's minor and unnecessary.
 
G

Ghosty1981

Dog will hunt!
Strange Symptoms said:
Erron's pokes are pretty damn solid. D3 could be sped up with better hit advantage or low profile better but that's minor and unnecessary.
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His pokes are ok at best. His d1 is a mid that can only accomplish a tick throw on block. He has no viable OH starter anymore so the best response is simply to block low and counter poke. His d4 pushes them away, and that's where the problems begin.

Erron Black is fundamentally a rush down character, and the new rush mechanics have really damaged him even in Gunslinger. Marksman and Outlaw have obvious problems, so I will just address Gunslinger.

Gunslinger has some zoning ability, but it is very slow and obvious due to stance change. Eventually you have to get in to do real damage, and that requires a run. If your run is countered by a projectile, say against a better zoner, you lose all your stamina and are dead in the water for several moments.

If you succeed in rushing in you get one combo if you're lucky, but with the OH being so slow and obvious they only have to block low and react to the OH, then punish. If Erron lands a combo he won't have enough stamina in most cases to start a new run and get in position to capitalize on the knockdown. At best he will be in range for an OH, which has the problems I just mentioned.

He simply doesn't have the tools to make up for the change in rushdown mechanics. You can't have a rushdown character that lacks tick throws and also pushes opponents away with every decent move and counter in the current set-up.
 
G

Ghosty1981

Dog will hunt!
Also a problem I just found out: EBs JI3 tick throw can be poked out of. He has one viable tick throw in 211~throw, and one YOLO tick throw in d1~throw which will get you destroyed if they don't block.
 
CrazyFingers

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Ghosty1981 said:
Also a problem I just found out: EBs JI3 tick throw can be poked out of. He has one viable tick throw in 211~throw, and one YOLO tick throw in d1~throw which will get you destroyed if they don't block.
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I mean...11B3? S1? D4? the downplay on Erron's tick throws has to stop.
 
G

Ghosty1981

Dog will hunt!
CrazyFingers said:
I mean...11B3? S1? D4? the downplay on Erron's tick throws has to stop.
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For 11b3 you just neutral jump. There is nothing coming after 11b3 that should be blocked. Honestly, I don't know what use 11b3 has at this point.

D4 you just release block or counter poke. The best EB can do that Ive seen is cancel into stance and do double shots. It gets damage but we are back to the rushdown problem as it puts them full screen.

S1 is ok, but it is like d1 in that you practially must commit before you know if they blocked or not; if you succeed you get 13% damage and haven't really conditioned them to do anything different. On the other hand you wiff and eat a full combo. Not a great trade off.
 
Strange Symptoms

Strange Symptoms

Noob
Ghosty1981 said:
His pokes are ok at best. His d1 is a mid that can only accomplish a tick throw on block. He has no viable OH starter anymore so the best response is simply to block low and counter poke. His d4 pushes them away, and that's where the problems begin.

Erron Black is fundamentally a rush down character, and the new rush mechanics have really damaged him even in Gunslinger. Marksman and Outlaw have obvious problems, so I will just address Gunslinger.

Gunslinger has some zoning ability, but it is very slow and obvious due to stance change. Eventually you have to get in to do real damage, and that requires a run. If your run is countered by a projectile, say against a better zoner, you lose all your stamina and are dead in the water for several moments.

If you succeed in rushing in you get one combo if you're lucky, but with the OH being so slow and obvious they only have to block low and react to the OH, then punish. If Erron lands a combo he won't have enough stamina in most cases to start a new run and get in position to capitalize on the knockdown. At best he will be in range for an OH, which has the problems I just mentioned.

He simply doesn't have the tools to make up for the change in rushdown mechanics. You can't have a rushdown character that lacks tick throws and also pushes opponents away with every decent move and counter in the current set-up.
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I understand and partly agree to the argument regarding his viability, but I was strictly talking about his pokes, which I find more than serviceable and fair.

I personally like that they toned down the 50/50 aspect of him, but I wish they would have buffed his normals as compensation. 112, 11B3, B33 whiffing on hit at times, F2 and F3 all could have been reworked. If they would have upgraded his normals and made his command grab have some more hit advantage, he would be an insane grappler, but that's is my personal taste. I personally never won off of F1 alone and having watched a good amount of Erron's in tournament, F1, albeit helping, did not determine the sets.

Gunslinger is completely fine in my opinion, but then again I'm far from great. Marksman needs adjustments, and Outlaw would benefit from the grapple playstyle if they made Ex Sand Toss plus on block. These are just some prospects, but if they bring back F1, I won't complain.
 
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Strange Symptoms

Strange Symptoms

Noob
Ghosty1981 said:
For 11b3 you just neutral jump. There is nothing coming after 11b3 that should be blocked. Honestly, I don't know what use 11b3 has at this point.

D4 you just release block or counter poke. The best EB can do that Ive seen is cancel into stance and do double shots. It gets damage but we are back to the rushdown problem as it puts them full screen.

His D4 has some decent pushback. Genuine question, if they counterpoke often, can you just walk back and make it whiff? Then again without any mids have fun whiff punishing it lol.
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G

Ghosty1981

Dog will hunt!
Strange Symptoms said:
I understand and partly agree to the argument regarding his viability, but I was strictly talking about his pokes, which I find more than serviceable and fair.

I personally like that they toned down the 50/50 aspect of him, but I wish they would have buffed his normals as compensation. 112, 11B3, B33 whiffing on hit at times, F2 and F3 all could have been reworked. If they would have upgraded his normals and made his command grab have some more hit advantage, he would be an insane grappler, but that's is my personal taste. I personally never won off of F1 alone and having watched a good amount of Erron's in tournament, F1, albeit helping, did not determine the sets.

Gunslinger is completely fine in my opinion, but then again I'm am far from great. Marksman needs adjustments, and Outlaw would benefit from the grapple playstyle if they made Ex Sand Toss plus on block. These are just some prospects, but if they bring back F1, I won't complain.
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The f1 change is lame, but the rushdown mechanics change is what really screws him up.

He really only has d1 as a poke, and it is fine for what it does, but there isn't much he can do afterwards since all of his up close options are underwhelming. A poke is only as good as its follow up, in my opinion.

When he could manipulate space, reliably moving in close after pushing the opponent back, he was at his best (speaking of Gunslinger here). Stopping and restarting the rush, or God forbid taking a hit while rushing in, stops him in his tracks now. When he could run, block, then run again and set up an attack he was great.

I can still win with him, but he has definitely been taken down significantly by the general changes, not so much the EB specific ones.

This is in utter contrast to my other main, Killer Leatherface, which has benefitted immensely from the general changes to armored reversals.
 
DanableLector

DanableLector

UPR DanableLector
To anyone that gives @21122 shit for "If you get hit by it you should quit the game"

Are you guys re tarded (TYM made me spell it this way)?? Do you not understand hyperbole? Sure he's exaggerating, but you guys are downplaying if you think this is okay. For gods sake, it's 1 frame faster than his f4. let that sink in. Keep it at 16 and make it a mid, make it 18-19 and keep it OH.

Everything the OP said is completely within reason. Erron black is trash as a whole, and gunslinger on its own is not great. It is super "Meh". Don't play yourselves. EB is not good, and he will not be winning shit anytime soon. My opinion has been shared!
 
Tweedy

Tweedy

Noob
If winning shit is any indication, then Erron has had his fair share of winning in comparison to the rest of the cast, since release.
 
DanableLector

DanableLector

UPR DanableLector
Tweedy said:
If winning shit is any indication, then Erron has had his fair share of winning in comparison to the rest of the cast, since release.
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Sonic fox winning tournaments with Erron black in previous versions of the game is hardly relevant. If you missed the point of my post, it is this:

-people should stahp giving @21122 shit. Nothing he said was unreasonable.
-F1 is Really slow, and absolutely Reactable.
-Upplaying f1 is absurd.
-Erron black isn't very good in the current version of the game.
 
cambros22

cambros22

Stand Back I'm a Doctor!!!!!!
Im having not too many issues using f1 and connecting however, I condition with lows and space it really well before using the string anyhow. I believe cd jr explained how the overhead was still fine in one of his streams awhile back; using it for shimmying.

Like @The Farmer said, 11b3 is bunz, all the players I know crossover full combo punish that string when i use it; which is why I havent used it since like 3 patches ago.

Also b2 tick is nice, not many people see it coming and your safe on hit; since its like plus 50 something I believe.

Gunslinger is still viable and strong in current meta. outlaw and marksman are useless.
 
Invincible Salads

Invincible Salads

Seeker of knowledge
ENiGMA | OCE said:
I feel like f3 could be buffed by reducing whiff recovery, increasing it so you could combo EX sand ball midscreen, and allow crushes. That way you could like 21122xEXSandBall rc f3. If you had resources you'd get a combo, and if not you'd continue pressure

Also the issue with 211 tick throws is that you can OS them without armor, so if you tick throw it whiffs, and if you continue the string they keep blocking
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os without armor? how does that happen?
 
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