General/Other - Erron Black Justice For Erron Black

[21122]

One of the changes being is making b1 a mid (11f) but maybe making it 0 on block or +1 or something because a +2 on block mid that jails into ex sg would be too much I think or maybe not. But regardless it has almost no range at all , you have to be point blank to land it. I think it would be fair. That's the only universal change I have in mind , both marksman and outlaw need a few very small changes that would make them better.

11 ~ ex-sand does not jail.

What they should do is make 1 a mid, increase it to a 9-10 frame startup, make 11 (-2) instead of +2, 112 (-8), and 11B3 ~ ex-sand jail.

 

[P3irce]

Not unless the opponent has a 2 armoured move.

Even if they have a doubled armored move they spend 1 bar for 13%. Just not worth it

 

[Gofer_MK]

What they should do is make 1 a mid, increase it to a 9-10 frame startup, make 11 (-2) instead of +2 and 112 (-8), and 11B3 ~ ex-sand jail.

Too much sense, NRS wont do it.

 

[21122]

Even if they have a doubled armored move they spend 1 bar for 13%. Just not worth it

Conditioning

 

[The Farmer]

F1 can be hitconfirmed though, with f3 you have to commit at all times. Plus f1 was a great footsie tool to use against ppl using d1/d3/d4 in neutral.

The 50/50 aspect of Erron Black has been whatever for a long time imo. The command grab mixup is a lot scarier now with no armored launchers. I'll take better neutral over high/low mixups.

https://testyourmight.com/threads/how-to-option-select-against-21122-anti-erron-black-tech.57939/

Is this still a thing? You could option select the 211 tackle option I thought. 11b3 tick is bunz. Most effective ticks for me have been d1, b2, and jik4.

 

[21122]

https://testyourmight.com/threads/how-to-option-select-against-21122-anti-erron-black-tech.57939/

Is this still a thing? You could option select the 211 tackle option I thought. 11b3 tick is bunz. Most effective ticks for me have been d1, b2, and jik4.

All his ticks are really easy to blow up aside from d1 tick

 

[Amplified$hotz]

I agree op Erron needs help. I think he should a tick throw in outlaws f22 he's really negative on strings. Since f1 is slower they should have gave ex sand glass the old pushback which left them closer. Marksman playstyle might have to change due to new stamina. Just my opinion

 

[ATP2014]

You can still OS armor, but there are no more armored launchers outside of a few exceptions, so the risk/reward is almost even. Plus, there are other ways to land a command grab besides traditional tick throws, such as after blocked jump attacks, after gaining hit advantage from a poke, after ex sand grenade and while in footsies.

 

[21122]

I just hope 16bit or Lord Paulo saw this thread and will do something about it.

 

[P3irce]

Conditioning

What's the point though. You spend 1 bar many times to get erron black afraid but then you no longer have any meter to break. Since erron will be gaining meter and doing tons of chip there's no reason to be conditioned imo

 

[21122]

You folks are taking the "quit the game if you can't react to his 23 frames", to seriously. That is just the salt translating to words lol

What's the point though. You spend 1 bar many times to get erron black afraid but then you no longer have any meter to break. Since erron will be gaining meter and doing tons of chip there's no reason to be conditioned imo

You don't always have to spend a bar to blow up Erron's gaps. All of them can either be poked out, jumped out, or backdashed.

 

[podizzler3000]

EX sand toss is hot garbage now. ex command grab is his best wakeup option now.

 

[cambros22]

EX sand toss is hot garbage now. ex command grab is his best wakeup option now.

I think neither slide or command grab are better. both wakeups are full combo punishable but command grab can be stuffed by throw immune normals in the game like kano's b3 and sonya's b1 for example. Slide at least switches side positions if they neutral jump on wakeup and guarantees you out of the corner unless they use their own armor.

No good options for erron on wakeup across all variations now.

 

[Amplified$hotz]

I think neither slide or command grab are better. both wakeups are full combo punishable but command grab can be stuffed by throw immune normals in the game like kano's b3 and sonya's b1 for example. Slide at least switches side positions if they neutral jump on wakeup and guarantees you out of the corner unless they use their own armor.

No good options for erron on wakeup across all variations now.

slide is a good wakeup smh Kung Lao wishes he had slide.

 

[ienjoywinning]

I think neither slide or command grab are better. both wakeups are full combo punishable but command grab can be stuffed by throw immune normals in the game like kano's b3 and sonya's b1 for example. Slide at least switches side positions if they neutral jump on wakeup and guarantees you out of the corner unless they use their own armor.

No good options for erron on wakeup across all variations now.

Sorry but command grab is a decent option and so is slide the only issue is what you mentioned ( throw immune normals) other than it isn't bad at all. If you think they'll bait it by njp then you can just do a normal slide to get out of the corner or d2 at some cases. I'm not saying that his armor is amazing or anything but it isn't a bad option. If you want bad wakeup options look at : predator (minu's warrior) and quan. THATS bad

 

[cambros22]

Sorry but command grab is a decent option and so is slide the only issue is what you mentioned ( throw immune normals) other than it isn't bad at all. If you think they'll bait it by njp then you can just do a normal slide to get out of the corner or d2 at some cases. I'm not saying that his armor is amazing or anything but it isn't a bad option. If you want bad wakeup options look at : predator (minu's warrior) and quan. THATS bad

Yeah i didnt mean to say his armor was bad like in a useless way. I was more comparing command grab to slide and I didnt see either one being better than the other. I personally felt that he should have safe armor in outlaw. My jab at him having no options is just my frustration that he got overlooked in that department considering how marksman and outlaw stand.

 

[CaptainCM]

Gunslinger is still pretty good, sure. My issue is that it's not cool being forced to use one variation. I mean, despite not picking top tier character, I don't play to lose, so obviously I'm gonna play Gunslinger. It's not devastating or anything, but it sure is disappointing.

 

[GAV]

 

[P3irce]

You folks are taking the "quit the game if you can't react to his 23 frames", to seriously. That is just the salt translating to words lol


You don't always have to spend a bar to blow up Erron's gaps. All of them can either be poked out, jumped out, or backdashed.

I agree with that but you still build chip and meter even when you can backdash the last shot of sos3. Also erron will Be conditioning as well, people are just gonna hold a lot of his shit cause spending a bar for 13% is not worth it in a lot of cases

 

[21122]

scorpion's F4 overhead is 25 frames, and ppl are hit by it.

For gods sake, stahp calling your 23f overhead useless.

23 start up frames + gaps + -14 on block

Its useless...

 

[21122]

I've posted only here mainly because at some point 21122 said erron's overhead is useless, which i disagree, the string was a overhead low and advances EB forward, it was impossible to backdash out of it in 50-50 situations and ppl trying to space it would often get hit by it.
Neither should be comparable with ermac's overhead which only combos if he cancels with a launcher, which are punishable, i'm not saying ermac is fine, because that character is also ridiculous, but still...

Also, not in agreement that any character in this game should have a mid under 11 frames specially if it comes from a string asking for a 9f mid or 10 its going to be super OP against the poking game MKXL offers, which i personally vowed many times that i don't like it.

When did I say F1 was useless pre-patch?

 

[21122]

If it was reverted and made a mid he would already have a mid in f3 that covers just as much range and is faster then f1's 16 frames. Also, f1 is his only overhead option outside of f4 which leads to nothing. Making f1 mid would eliminate all his mixups and people would just crouch block all day, and fuzzy the occasional coin shot gimmick.

F1 becomes 14F mid and 2 becomes a 8f high
F1 -3 on block, no tick throw but you can stagger it now
F13 -8 on block and you can tick throw off it
F132 -10 on block

 

[The Farmer]

F1 becomes 14F mid and 2 becomes a 8f high
F1 -3 on block, no tick throw but you can stagger it now
F13 -8 on block and you can tick throw off it
F132 -10 on block

Now being able to stagger f1 would be nice.

 

[Strange Symptoms]

I quite honestly enjoy the idea of the proposed F1 changes, but honestly I would not mind the lack of an overhead at all if instead his grapple was given more hit advantage for better Oki. Granted I am unaware as to whether this would imbalance him, but I thought it would be a nice consideration so that he becomes a better grappler. Another idea I have been contemplating is whether a speed up on F2 would be a better universal change than a speed up on F3. This would indirectly buff Outlaw due to his well-known +1 F22. A third idea that I was considering is if instead of ex-sand in Outlaw being simply safe, it could become similar to his prepatch sand grenade, causing the variation to undeniably be his best for pressure. Gunslinger is quite honestly still decent, and having played Marksman for the better part of a year, I'm quite confident that he is viable. He no longer fears armor when canceling into upswing (exceptions obviously being the strings that can be normaled through) and he still hits the same damage barring some midscreen jabs. His only major nerf was truly converting after run in punishes, but that's honestly it. It was very rare for me to ever cancel more than once in a single confrontation, but then again I've honestly never fought many great players. I'm mostly just theorycrafting here tbh.
Side Note: What would be a good buff to Marksman? I don't play him to often now, but I did notice that when I did I found myself winning through 21122, rarely using F13 unless I had some major frame advantage.

 

[21122]

I quite honestly enjoy the idea of the proposed F1 changes, but honestly I would not mind the lack of an overhead at all if instead his grapple was given more hit advantage for better Oki. Granted I am unaware as to whether this would imbalance him, but I thought it would be a nice consideration so that he becomes a better grappler. Another idea I have been contemplating is whether a speed up on F2 would be a better universal change than a speed up on F3. This would indirectly buff Outlaw due to his well-known +1 F22. A third idea that I was considering is if instead of ex-sand in Outlaw being simply safe, it could become similar to his prepatch sand grenade, causing the variation to undeniably be his best for pressure. Gunslinger is quite honestly still decent, and having played Marksman for the better part of a year, I'm quite confident that he is viable. He no longer fears armor when canceling into upswing (exceptions obviously being the strings that can be normaled through) and he still hits the same damage barring some midscreen jabs. His only major nerf was truly converting after run in punishes, but that's honestly it. It was very rare for me to ever cancel more than once in a single confrontation, but then again I've honestly never fought many great players. I'm mostly just theorycrafting here tbh.
Side Note: What would be a good buff to Marksman? I don't play him to often now, but I did notice that when I did I found myself winning through 21122, rarely using F13 unless I had some major frame advantage.

Marksman
DB1 - faster startup/recovery - 1st shot is a high and reset are mids.
DF1 - less minus/faster recovery