General/Other - Johnny Cage Johnny Cage General Discussion Thread

[IrishMantis]

I've had issues in SD with 12 armour breaks because you need to (with certain reversals) be close to frame perfect. B12 seems to be a little more user friendly in that respect. With meter you can hit confirm into ex nut punch for a combo after a successful armour break.

Overall he is weaker though, I can't argue there.



I wasn't paying attention to the cut off for start up frames at the time so I can't say.

Just checked they are the exact same they both just beat beat 15 frames of armour

 

[countrypistol]

Just checked they are the exact same they both just beat beat 15 frames of armour

Are there any instances you can recall where reversals low profile the first hit? I'm wondering if there is any benifit to the first hit being a mid.

There probably isn't any benefit. FC will need more than just a throw buff to be worth it. Maybe an overall damage buff whilst the trait is active, or armour breaking punches. Fucking anything really.

 

[IrishMantis]

Are there any instances you can recall where reversals low profile the first hit? I'm wondering if there is any benifit to the first hit being a mid.

There probably isn't any benefit. FC will need more than just a throw buff to be worth it. Maybe an overall damage buff whilst the trait is active, or armour breaking punches. Fucking anything really.

As far as I recall the likes of slide and roll go under it

Anybody got a screenshot of Fistycuffs frame data both b1 and b12 from the beta?

 

[ismael4790]

As far as I recall the likes of slide and roll go under it

Anybody got a screenshot of Fistycuffs frame data both b1 and b12 from the beta?

I think i know them by memory xD

b1 is 10 startup -3 block
b12 7 startup -3 block

If you were thinking about whiff recovery or something...I'll have to check

 

[countrypistol]

As far as I recall the likes of slide and roll go under it

Anybody got a screenshot of Fistycuffs frame data both b1 and b12 from the beta?

Sadly they go under b12 as well. I was hoping they wouldn't, or that he would have more utility against female crouch blocking hurt boxes, but alas he doesn't. D'Vorah is the only small hurt box character he had the advantage over on knock down, but not against backdashes or tech rolls. It isn't enough to justify FC as a variation.

 

[M.D.]

If d4 gets nerfed and brokenzero keeps his, tune in the 7-o clock channel 5 news, an office shootout will ensue.

 

[coconutshrimp]

I don't know how to feel about the D4 nerf. Johnny's is 11 frames and low profiles, and Sub's is 9 frames and low profiles and can be cancelled into Clone to prevent counterpokes, Scorps is 8 frames and low profiles. They all have equal range if I'm not mistaken. Imo if they want to make low profiling D4s less of an issue remove it from everyone that has it and buff they're AA or give Jump ins less priority like Scorpions Jump in 3.

 

[countrypistol]

I don't know how to feel about the D4 nerf. Johnny's is 11 frames and low profiles, and Sub's is 9 frames and low profiles and can be cancelled into Clone to prevent counterpokes, Scorps is 8 frames and low profiles. They all have equal range if I'm not mistaken. Imo if they want to make low profiling D4s less of an issue remove it from everyone that has it and buff they're AA or give Jump ins less priority like Scorpions Jump in 3.

Or we all just pick GM Sub and make the game miserable for everyone

 

[Wigy]

12 if frame perfect breaks 15 and up frames

I'll check fisty now

I think they're about the same its just timing isnt an issue and they cant poke.

 

[FoughtDragon01]

In a world where moves like Jax's f21 exists, I feel low-profiling d4s are a necessity in some match-ups. You expect a d4? Jump in instead.

And as long as Johnny's standing 1 continues to whiff on certain crouch blocking characters, I really don't wanna see any complaints about his d4 making mids whiff.

 

[Wigy]

I don't know how to feel about the D4 nerf. Johnny's is 11 frames and low profiles, and Sub's is 9 frames and low profiles and can be cancelled into Clone to prevent counterpokes, Scorps is 8 frames and low profiles. They all have equal range if I'm not mistaken. Imo if they want to make low profiling D4s less of an issue remove it from everyone that has it and buff they're AA or give Jump ins less priority like Scorpions Jump in 3.

Subs has more range.

IMO they remove the low profiling OR make it more negative. Pick one.

 

[Asodimazze]

Subs has more range.

IMO they remove the low profiling OR make it more negative. Pick one.

They should let it be or nerf the countless other pokes with similar properties too.
Cage d1 is below average and d3 sucks, his only good poke is d4. Others (like Shinnok, Cassie, Sub, D'vorah, Predator....) have 2 or 3 great pokes lol.

What's the point of nerfing JC?...

 

[ismael4790]

They should let it be or nerf the countless other pokes with similar properties too.
Cage d1 is below average and d3 sucks, his only good poke is d4. Others (like Shinnok, Cassie, Dub, D'vorah, Predator....) have 2 or 3 great pokes lol.

What's the point of nerfing JC?...

People cries a lot about Cage for no reason, that's the point xD

People crying is what killed Fisticuffs last year.

There are lots of things that should be destroyed instead of Cage's d4.

 

[FoughtDragon01]

They should let it be or nerf the countless other pokes with similar properties too.
Cage d1 is below average and d3 sucks, his only good poke is d4. Others (like Shinnok, Cassie, Dub, D'vorah, Predator....) have 2 or 3 great pokes lol.

What's the point of nerfing JC?...

For some reason or another, he's had a target on his chest for the past few months now. I think it had to do with Killer Xinok's and others performance with him in some tournaments. And somehow, that translates to him needing nerfs. Again.

And I swear, the ones I hear crying the most are the ones who don't know that the block button exists.

 

[Wigy]

Heard someone say cages pressure was better than lius. Its the same in every way except lius does more chip and builds more meter and ends in + right next to them with an armour breaking move. neither of them have fucking mixups, fucking see 11 block low for a half second otherwise block high jesus!

Lets not even mention all the tools liu has that jc doesnt

 

[JustPressingButtons]

@Dja_Homies
-Pick Fisticuffs in beta
-Activate Fist Bump
-Do throw
-17% throw without red health
#HiddenChanges

 

[ismael4790]

Maybe this is hype-induced, but after some days playing only the beta I went back to the normal version of the game and I feel speedbag different.

I would swear the recovery is faster in the beta, and has less pushback. I know the frames listed are the same, but we also now that the grab buff he got is not listed either...who knows?

If some of this is true, @16 Bit , just post a ""...

 

[coconutshrimp]

What do you guys think about Reptile Vs Cage? I feel like I am heavily handicapped and I would have an easier time with Kenshi. Does this MU favor A-List over SD?

 

[zaccbarias]

Maybe this is hype-induced, but after some days playing only the beta I went back to the normal version of the game and I feel speedbag different.

I would swear the recovery is faster in the beta, and has less pushback. I know the frames listed are the same, but we also now that the grab buff he got is not listed either...who knows?

If some of this is true, @16 Bit , just post a ""...

what do you think about the fisticuffs self buff (bf1) does it come out faster? recover faster?

 

[ismael4790]

what do you think about the fisticuffs self buff (bf1) does it come out faster? recover faster?

It is a bit faster in recovery (4 frames) and seems also faster in activation, but nothing really relevant. Nothing close to Flame Fist. 17% throw with fistbump enabled is good.

However, this variation relies on speedbag, his signature move, which at the moment has only got 1 frame of startup reduction in the beta, which is nothing.

If this tendency of improving pokes (see Mileena example) stays, Fisticuffs is gonna be a joke from March on, even more than now he is. Speedbag is just no threat at the moment. I still can't understand why nrs seems so afraid of improving this move to prepatch or an intermediate state between prepatch and current state. It wouldn't be broken at all. We are almost a year since the game began. People would know how to defend against it xD

 

[countrypistol]

It is a bit faster in activation, but nothing really relevant. 17% throw with fistbump enabled is good.

However, this variation relies on speedbag, his signature move, which at the moment has only got 1 frame of startup reduction in the beta, which is nothing.

If this tendeny of improving pokes (see Mileena example) stays, Fisticuffs is gonna be a joke from March on, even more than now he is. Speedbag is just no threat at the moment. I still can't understand why nrs seems so afraid of improving this move to prepatch or an intermediate state between prepatch and current state. It wouldn't be broken at all. We are almost a year since the game begun. People would know how to defend against it xD

Yeah, you defend against stuff that you can't beat by starting a thread about it and demanding it get removed from the game.

I was speaking to someone last week who was under the impression that JC's pseudo mix up couldn't be fuzzy blocked. Others think the staggers make armouring out difficult (they're unaware of the OS). If people labbed the character they would find the holes and do fine against him.Without meter, I would much rather defend against an A-List JC's pressure than HF Scorp, SQ D'Vorah, etc, who have overhead and low starters to follow up their RC pressure.

Part of the issue ,I suspect, is that A List has high execution requirements, so practicing defending against his block strings requires a significant investment of time to learn them first. Whereas with others (Tempest Lao) I can spend five minutes from scratch before setting the AI to record and setting to work figuring out what to do.

 

[FoughtDragon01]

It is a bit faster in recovery (4 frames) and seems also faster in activation, but nothing really relevant. Nothing close to Flame Fist.

This bit right here is what's been bugging me the most about Fisticuffs' situation. I hate to sound like the usual 'But x character has this and I want it too' complainer, but I cannot, for the life of me, understand why NRS would nerf Fisticuffs yet in virtually the same breath, buff Flame Fist to the level it's at now, which is arguably worse to deal with than pre-patch Fistis. They both more or less serve the same purpose: to cause insane amounts of chip, so why was one so heavily favored above the other? It's less "This character has it, and I want it too", and more "These design choices are more inconsistent than the lag in your average MKX ranked match."

Is it really that much to ask for a raw damage buff and an EX-version that allows combo extensions and possible frame traps? It isn't like he'd have both the combo-extending buff move and a new low-starting string (Looking at you, Cutthroat).

 

[Dizzy]

I just want to say for anyone complaining JC was nerfed in the online beta. This is only 4 characters and is just the beta. You can't compare beta to the current retail characters.

 

[ismael4790]

This bit right here is what's been bugging me the most about Fisticuffs' situation. I hate to sound like the usual 'But x character has this and I want it too' complainer, but I cannot, for the life of me, understand why NRS would nerf Fisticuffs yet in virtually the same breath, buff Flame Fist to the level it's at now, which is arguably worse to deal with than pre-patch Fistis. They both more or less serve the same purpose: to cause insane amounts of chip, so why was one so heavily favored above the other? It's less "This character has it, and I want it too", and more "These design choices are more inconsistent than the lag in your average MKX ranked match."

Is it really that much to ask for a raw damage buff and an EX-version that allows combo extensions and possible frame traps? It isn't like he'd have both the combo-extending buff move and a new low-starting string (Looking at you, Cutthroat).

Amen to this: "These design choices are more inconsistent than the lag in your average MKX ranked match."

Exactly. Liu flame fist and fisticuffs are variations which in theory are designed with the same objective, they are chip oriented.
One can't understand Fisticuffs june nerf and him being ignored until now, while a character like FF exists in the game which is better than FC at every field. Better zoning, better pressure, chip+damage buff integrated with combos... Pure inconsistence. Cutthroat is another example. He even has 50/50s.

We all remember Djt's fisticuffs performance at commonwealth...but that happened only two months after the game was released. People had no time to adapt to the matchup. Damn, Sonic adapted to it within the tournament...I think everyone could have done it soon too. Specially when those characters that struggled with fc pressure were given better pokes.

I will be truly disappointed if FC doesn't get anything more than the new throw and 1 frame shaved from b1 in the next patch. He really deserves much more just to get to be average.

 

[coconutshrimp]

At this point were beating a dead horse saying Fisticuffs needs buffs. I want it to be buffed as well but that would require NRS to admit they made a mistake and that's No No.

Cage mains: "Buff Fisticuffs it is so low tier it NEEDS to get something."

Paulo: "Fisticuffs is fine. Just Anti-Air with B12 more."