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How glitch jabs affect UMK3

MKK hanzo

Moderator
Premium Supporter
Double Post.

The Glitch Jab's are no longer as "game breaking" as I originally thought. It actually makes the game better in some aspects. A lot of what some of the old school vets are/were afraid of isn't going to happen. Allow me to explain.

Phil was discussing with me over AIM the other day about how GJ's will look really bad on the stream. And I guess, if people were to use ONLY GJ's, and not know how to beat them... I would agree. However, no one is going to do that, NO ONE. If they do, they will lose 100% of the time. That is, if they are playing against a player that knows how to defeat it. Rob was also saying that even though it's beatable, he also thought it will look bad. Trust me, it's not going to look like what you think.

So many things beat the GJ's, in the majority of the situations, you'll be at a disadvantage if you're just GJ'ing. Some of you have said that even though it's beatable, you don't want to play the game with it in there. My response to that would be, learn to beat them and use them before you quit. "I don't want to use that cheap tactic", as I have already said, it's only cheap on the surface. The concept of it is ridiculous, and it looks dumb. HOWEVER, once you have knowledge of how it works, how to beat it, and how to utilize it... not only is it no longer ridiculous or dumb looking, it's quite amazing actually.

Some characters will be played differently than we're used to. Some characters will go up in the rankings now too. Such as Sonya and USub.

Sonya is VERY good at beating the GJ's. Not only can she easily defend against them, once she's in she can apply crazy pressure. She can't really use them herself, at least not with the LP version. Since you will be doing random Leg Grabs on accident when you attempt them. She can however use the HP version, which isn't nearly as useful. Usub is good at beating them, and using them himself. His IceClone is a lot more useful now, as well as his zoning tools. In fact, every zoning character is better now. Reptile benefits from zoning now. Add that in with his invisibility, he becomes a REAL force. Robot Smoke with invisibility is crazy good too, as he's always been. Lex was really telling the truth about invis shenanigans beating the GJ's.

In a nutshell, the GJ's do more good for the game than bad. It makes the game more footsie based. It makes defensive and zoning characters better, and actually viable. It adds a new layer of depth for the high level player. It makes some characters better, such as the one's mentioned above. Rushdown will still be the best tactic, but now zoning is an actual threat. I cannot believe how we were playing the game before, no wonder Marv rapes everyone.

DO NOT QUIT THE GAME. Hanzo, Lex and ded_ were right all along. Arguably the 3 best players in the world were saying what I just said, why was no one listening to them? Well, I did listen, and now I agree 100% with what they were saying.

LEVEL YOUR GAME UP!
QFT
 

FatalTragedy

Jesus Fucking Christ
I'm all for adapting, even if the strategy comes off as cheesy. Kara jabbing is an integral part of my game but I always thought that standing in place and throwing blocked jabs was a terrible bait and looked ridiculous. This happens a lot when players get frustrated losing with pure rushdown tactics.

I'm not a great player by any means. The best method I've utilized to counter these players is run in just out of range and start throwing your own jab and hopefully the opponent will go into blocking frames allowing you to get on top and continue an honest rush. Of course if timed poorly you'll be the one in block frames. Ugly trade.

I see attitudes toward this cheesy tactic have changed a bit so I'm curious how some of you guys are countering.
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
Premium Supporter
This article in SRK frontpage about Marvel has some points that can be applied to this.

Source:
http://shoryuken.com/content/only-problem-mvc3-you-3694/

The Only Problem with MvC3... is You

A bit long, first part mostly background information for the second part.

First order optimal strategies are in all games, what the phrase refers to is the usage of a low-risk high-reward strategy with a low skill cap. This is primarily put in or left by designers to encourage newer players to keep playing and feel like they have a chance against veterans in various games. In multiplayer games, especially competitive ones, often these are purposely added to help balance out the early growing pains of some players.

For strategy games take the early life of Starcraft which had Zergling Rush, Bunker Rush, Cannon Rush and 4-Pooling. These tactics are largely despised by people and I clearly remember how many games were still No Rush 10min and No Cheese even years after these strategies had long evolved or been discarded by a huge chunk of the player population.

These strategies originally took very little skill to attempt and the payoff was huge, you won the game if they succeeded without even needing to try. Often if they failed, early in the lifespan of these strategies it wasn’t necessarily a death sentence if they had dealt enough damage to derail the opponent. Over time though they practically were death sentence if they failed, as strategy evolved, counters were developed and these were largely relegated to the annals of time. This does NOT mean they were made completely obsolete. Boxer famously Bunker Rushed in a tournament finals and various Zerg rushes were developed that weren’t so suicidal and so on. SC was a game with a huge amount of depth and tactics that weren't discovered for years into the game's life-span.

Do note that for a time 4-Pooling and variants were actually OP, because unlike many fighting games SC received multiple patches for balancing issues. Some inadvertently broke the game, my example is linked to the times when they didn't actually make Zerg early game too good or unplayable. Note that this is also an example of relying on patches as a risky proposition, sometimes they make things a lot better and other times they send balance out of whack in an entirely different way.

From Extra Credits - The Escapist : Video Galleries : Extra Credits : Playing Like a Designer Part 2

The "Noob Tube" is a classic example of this, a constantly [complained] about weapon in Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. It was a grenade launcher attachment that could be accessed very early in the game and eliminated or downgraded certain skill factors from play. It called the Noob Tube because while it took almost no skill to use, it was a powerful. Long story short, bad players were able to use this and get kills against good players. It was ultimately best against the middle class of skill where people either didn’t or wouldn’t adapt against these weapons and got killed more often then high end players.

Based on the example you may ask why any company would purposely diminish the skill set of the games they develop. When designing toward making a player base it really depends on what you want to achieve. If the goal is to encourage a player base and attempt to grow it, Marvel already was doing half right by having tons of shiny stuff and lots of crap going on to stare at. The other half was attempting to show that you can play this game and from a company standpoint that's definitely something you want. From a tournament standpoint that's something you want as it increases player bases, prizes, etc.

In an ideal world you could design it to have a beautiful curve that seamlessly joins leveling up, having fun and learning stuff. In the real world what I find usually happens is people understand that the hardcore / best players will still be the best even if they 'dumb down' the game a bit and open up to a wider audience. Magic the Gathering did that over the past couple of years and a lot of Pros really rallied on the company for it, a few years later they've had unprecedented growth of the base and shock of shocks, the majority of pros were still cashing / winning tournaments even if the playing field had leveled out a bit. In general if the game has a lot of natural depth built in, cashing a little of that in for increased popularity is a business decision that's difficult to fault.

As I said practically every game and especially multiplayer games, have these built into themselves from the outset. In MVC3 we can already hear complaints about the FOO strategies that have been created so far.

Screen filler from Arthur / Doom / Dormamu / Trish / Sentinel
‘Spammable rushdown’ from Akuma / Wolverine / Magneto
Mashy attacks into super off anything from Chun-Li / Super-Skrull
Level 3 X-Factor comebacks
And of course the ubiquitous usage of Sentinel over the first week of game play

There are all obvious strategies that were realized and instead of figuring out how to advance them (Seeing what ones are legitimate mixed strategies and what is actually ‘broken’) people generally complain and moan. Now these complaints aren’t necessarily terrible or without merit, if that’s the full depth of the game and the optimal strategies are the basic ones, the game probably isn’t going to have a competitive scene for very long. Dozens of dead fighting games along the wayside can attest to this.

A fair number of these strategies could be responded to with attempts to figure out what evasion options are open / optimal against spammers or what characters counter them effectively. Against rushdown or characters with instant overheads, learning how to block effectively or looking for signs that give away the direction of an attack are all valid options. Against mashers, blocking, zoning and more blocking and evasion are all things that should be practiced. Instead there are largely complaints. Oddly people who put work in have actually found a bit more joy in the game despite it obviously being broken after the 10 hours of play you put into it.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c100/Gaara48180/dpxrgp.jpg

Again I'm not saying that it isn't possible that some of these strategies are OP, but claiming them to be because they show success and people play them isn't exactly a great place to have that argument from. Especially not so early in a game's lifespan. Note that with Sentinel there's a fair chance that he ends up being the best character in the game. I'm not trying to argue that Sentinel isn't OP, just that we should give it more time and allow counter strategies to be developed before declaring him so. The discussion about him should be established, but not the 'wah wah, he's too ****ing good' part of the complaints. Is he the best character in the game and if so, by what margin? Him being the best character because of his one-hit = kill nature might not be the biggest issue if it turns out more characters have the same thing going for them as the combo and proration system is fleshed out. At that point he might just be a bigger and easier target than someone with similar damage dealing capabilities and he's no longer the overpowered threat in a game full of them.

Point is to figure out if he's OP in the 'broken' game warping fashion, rather than just OP in the SF4 Sagat fashion and then after that can come the discussion of how to tweak him assuming a balance patch or patches actually are in the game's future. X-Factor is another system that needs to be dissected as the current form of Level 3 X-Factor seems like a slippery slope comeback mechanic taken too far. Once again, figuring out a solution and presenting it is going to be a lot more effective than complaining about how beast it is or how Level 3 Sent > the game.

However in a fair number of games such as the ones listed, there are ways around these strategies or even outright more powerful strategies with better risk / reward ratio for more skilled players. In general what’s happening is how fighting game meta’s evolve and it’s ridiculous to talk about what’s supposedly broken* or unfair in a game that’s been out for a week. For every post I see whining about skill being removed from the game I’m left wondering if these people have actually played video games before or know what skill or variance even means. I'm not trying to say the game is perfect, but that actual discussion should take place and there needs be a line drawn behind what's causing an issue on the player side and what on the game mechanics side is legitimately OP and may want to be tweaked down the line.

*Broken means that a strategy actually breaks the game, not the thing you lose too for reasons you can't even accurately describe over your own raging.

You have complete control over your character in a fighting game. There is no variance for what that character can do outside a joystick malfunction or a legitimate game glitch. Everything else is completely under your own control and remains that way until the match ends. You may be limited in what your number of options are at a given moment, but you always have the capability of making a decision when possible aka: anytime not in stun, getting hit or on the ground. The definitions people use for random are absolute trash for how much control you have in FG’s compared to other competitive games. In various trading card games the best players in the world winning percentage range from 65-70%. Poker players deal with variance all the time and face even less decisions than in other games. The way some fighting game players talk about FG’s (and it really doesn’t seem to matter which ones anymore) you would think it was a big coin flip.

Getting hit by ‘random’ attacks isn’t random, it’s a MISTAKE. Or perhaps more accurately it’s a byproduct of taking risks in these games, since while you have complete control of your character it means that the opponent is as well and you have to accept that sometimes your decisions will be directly countered by a ‘less skilled’ opponent. This is why American tournaments have multiple sets per round, so the maximum advantage is given to the better player, no matter how slight that edge might be.

So instead of crying or complaining why not try and level your game up? Practice, read, try new stuff out or watch a match or two. If the stuff that's dominant right now is really -that good- and isn't patched, the game will die out soon enough. Discuss what seems too good, figure out what needs to be tweaked and present your findings and you could do a lot of good.

Or you could just quit. Your call.

TL;DR version: Stop crying over things you bring on yourself and try to pass off as scrubby or variance.

Credit to MingoDynasty for helping flesh some of the piece out.
Awesome read.
 

Lex

Noob
aaaaaaand we are getting somewhere. to be quite honest, the chicago scene has went through this GJ phase more than 10 years ago, which is why i knew there was a way around it. we dont need practice mode, we need more games where people learn when they lose
 

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Premium Supporter
Good point Lex, about the Robot Smoke or Reptile being invisible to counter GJ...I've done this a little more of late and it does help. Always a plus when your foe can't see you lol
 

MKK hanzo

Moderator
Premium Supporter
aaaaaaand we are getting somewhere. to be quite honest, the chicago scene has went through this GJ phase more than 10 years ago, which is why i knew there was a way around it. we dont need practice mode, we need more games where people learn when they lose

See? From the master himself.

Love you bro.
 
Jesús Christ!!! i can´t read all the entire shit in here xD just read some posts so here it´s my opinion and some good advices:

The game in fact have been explode by everyone from around the world and each country had been working on different way to level up so Latin Americans guys (us) love to find new ways to fuck up our enemies or opponents that´s why you see every year or less a new way to fight if you don´t beleave check our first match videos and check out the new ones.. why im trying to say with this it´s before complening about how it´s fucking you, your opponent you must think about a way to fuck him too...

When hanzo starts with this shit in Venezuela i was the first person to cry about it, and cry, acry and.. yes.. cry saying to hanzo "why you play like the Dominicans guys¿? why you just don´t play as a normal person?" and cry cry and cry.. and hanzo told me: find a way to beat that and stop crying.. and.. yes i found it, he found it, and colombians found it, Dominicans Found it, Chilenos Found it, and many others.. so here are some advice to beat this...

First off you got to undertand that in order to do the Jabs with the block shit you got just ONE WAY TO PERFORM IT and it´s: Holding down Block (don´t release it) and do LP or HP (It´s Your Choice) and thing it´s that you CAN´T CROUCH WHY YOU´RE HOLDING DOWN BLOCK AND DO THE LP, because as soon as you press down while you´re blocking your character block down and stop doing jabs.. the only way it´s just be stand up... got it?

you must clear your mind that while your opponent it´s doing this any front attack will be blocked.

you can counter this by:
1- you must be zoning your opponent always becarefull on do attacks in "Crazy Mode" you just got to think exactly how to get close to your opponent, so the best way to attack him/her it´s getting far (the best distances it´s a Sweep distance) you can sweep him/her force him to block down and stop using Kara Jabs, but becausefull with it because if your opponent guess your sweep (specially Kabal) can attacks you with a Dash, Spear, Net, anything... remember to get far (sweep) because if your opponent blocks the sweep as soon as the sweep animation stop you can do Kara (Counter) against him/her, by pressing F+LP (if your opponents runs to you close enough you could throw him, or just stop him/her.
2- You can do mind games with this because if you got an opponent that loves to do the jabs shits you must mix up your attacks by using Kara in the same distances (this force one of them to attacks first), using D+LK it´s a good way to stop him but you must let your opponent get close, you can attack with a far LK stand (off course your opponent will block it but it´s a free damage for you) kabal can´t do anything about an normal LK so don´t tell me that you can be dashed... because you can block it too

what can do Sindel, Striker, Sektor.. Jax, Sonya blah blah blah? the same shit, lol.. SPECIALLY JAX, KANO AND SONYA who had the BEST SWEEP IN THE WORLD so you can even do two sweeps in a row ^^ but not as crazy because Kabal can dash you, Smoke can spear you, Striker can shoot you, and others

Sorry about my eng ^^ im from Venezuela so we speak spanish xDDDDD
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
If you didn't know RZPuta, I changed my mind about the Glitch Jabs in this very thread, you should read it all!

First off you got to undertand that in order to do the Jabs with the block shit you got just ONE WAY TO PERFORM IT and it´s: Holding down Block (don´t release it) and do LP or HP (It´s Your Choice) and thing it´s that you CAN´T CROUCH WHY YOU´RE HOLDING DOWN BLOCK AND DO THE LP, because as soon as you press down while you´re blocking your character block down and stop doing jabs.. the only way it´s just be stand up... got it?
This isn't true. You can hold down and back while standing doing the Glitch Jabs. If your opponent sweeps, you go into auto crouch block.

Good post though on defending against them. I found out a lot of ways around it, it's why I changed my mind about them.