How glitch jabs affect UMK3

[Dark_Rob]

I love you Rob but You'll do the 4 GJ thing intentionally only of you're a cheap bastard( and you're not) second In order to stand in the corner you'll have to hold back. Many of the MK players automatically hold D+B nowadays and believe me every time I come to you or any other player, 99% of the time he will duck....You're thinking is very reasonable but almost impossible to happen in a real life scenario....Once again, unless you're a cheap Piece of S and doing those things on purpose to drive the rest of the players mad, you are not going to do those things that you've mentioned on purpose....Think about how much time it toke you to automatically D+B blocking....in real life game you'll be always to busy to think of actually holding back only....and if you just stand there without holding back...well thanks for the free throw buddy....You know that i have huge respect for you and what you do but imo your scenarios are a little too extreme. Once again I want to remind you that they are not impossible...if the person makes a fix-idea to do it...then it will happen....

P.S. when i refer to the corner inf, that usually means to ban it after kabal spins you or smoke catches you with a spear close to the corner...

Simon I think you are misunderstanding my position here. I am not speaking from my own personal point of view, in fact with the exception of my very first post in this thread I havent been speaking from my own personal point of view.
I am speaking from the point of view of the competitive player, the type of player who plays to win and soley to win. This type of player will not care if you think he is a "cheap bastard" because he wont follow the "spirit" of your rule. He is not obligated to follow the spirit of the law, only the letter of the law. Whatever rule you make he will find ways to push it to the absolute limit. These are the type of players you will encounter in tournaments and is exactly why I say we cant really ban it. He will not care if his pushing of the rule annoys you. He is only obligated to follow the rules. And with a rule this undefined there will always be ways for him to abuse glitch jabs while still being within the "letter of the law"

Now if you want my own personal point of view on glitch jabs. I think they are horrible. They ruin an otherwise beautiful game and dumb it down to a monotonous chip away/ turtle game. Above all IT MAKES THE GAME LOOK RETARDED!. Can you imagine if Reo vs. IGB had actually been on stream at Summer Jam?? We would have been laughed out of the room.
Also I do not dispute Konqrr, ded_ and Hanzo when they say there are ways around it. There ARE ways around it. But you are still playing the glitch jabbers game and it still looks stupid as hell.
Winter Brawl will be my last tournament for UMK3. I know when to fold a losing hand. Come ECT3 I will be exclusively focusing on MK9

 

[Juggs]

I just played Lizard King 5 for about 2-3 hours on XBL in ranked mode. All I would do is the Glitch Jabs and Lizard was trying to find ways to beat it. This glitch is definitely beatable.

-Cross-up throws work even on Kabal, at least when he's Glitch Jabbing. I'm sure you can still get a spin in on cross-up throws, but I didn't get ONE spin when Lizard crossed me up.

-JK's work to an extent as well. I was aaSpinning him a lot when he would try a JK, but some of the time I couldn't stop GJ'ing in time, or the JK would beat my spin.

-uSub-Zero works the best I think against the GJ's. Lizard King ended up using him the most towards the end. Full screen away safe Freezes stop the GJ's. uSub has an awkward hit box, so when he goes for a cross-up throw, the only thing you can do is block, unless you're Kano or Kabal. Against Kabal, uSub can do Ice Clone then attempt a JK... if Kabal tries to aaSpin, he will run into the Clone while uSub is spun in the air. When he did this I had to run away because it's almost free pressure. I could aaHK, or aaUppercut though. I wasn't able to spin after he ran in and LK'd or HK'd me while GJ'ing. He recovered in time, but I could have just been doing it too late.

-Sweeps are actually better than I expected against this. At least with a few characters. Jax, Sonta, Kano, uSub etc, I couldn't punish his sweeps even with Kabal. Moreover, I couldn't even get in when he was excessively sweeping.

-You can out jab the GJ's. Even when I was Kabal, sometimes he would run in and kara jab me, and he would put me in block state and continue to rush down. It could have something to do with Frame Advantage though.

-Cross-up JK's work too. Not only to cross-up throws work, but JK's as well. Again, this is to an extent. Though, I was still unable to aaSpin his uSub when he was doing this. Only while I was GJ'ing though.

-Ducking LK's work. Rush in and do c.lk, it will put the GJ'er in block state. Even if they are rushing you with the GJ's, you can c.lk to stop the GJ's. You can even apply pressure afterwards.

Lizard King was doing a very good job against the Glitch Jab's. This could have been due to the slight delay plus it being on the 360, but I did see a lot of things that were working. I won a lot of the matches, but I didn't go undefeated. I would have lost even more if he was also utilizing the GJ's. But I'm glad he didn't, I wanted to find out ways to beat it without doing it back.

Once someone starts defeating your GJ's, you have to stop using it as much. I was FORCED to not use them a lot, because I was losing BECAUSE I was Glitch Jabbing. I had to mix in GJ's with my normal play. And even then he was still beating the GJ's more than I would have thought possible. So, in a sense, you can't win by just GJ'ing. If your opponent knows how to beat them that is. You'll see them here and there, but not all the time which I thought was going to be the case. It's actually a lot like the videos Hanzo posted. They were GJ'ing, but it was only occasionally. I think that's what it will eventually look like here in the USA, if people stick with the game and learn how to defend against the GJ's.

 

[Dark_Rob]

Juggs, Im not disagreeing with alot of what your saying here, but remember this was on XBL. Built in input delay,lag and top it all off with online delay. Even though it was the online players that discovered this, the tactic works better offline, far better. Kabal can absolutely spin through your sweeps on reaction, REO was doing this constantly last Saturday At Nits house. Same goes for crossup jumps. Kabal has no problem nailing this everytime. and H.Smoke can neutral jump air throw. Again these things are MUCH easier to react to offline. Hell even I could do it. Even with c.LK if the Kabal player just happens to throw out a spin you are down nearly half your life and then he can REALLY turtle it up with the glitch jabs.

Again no one is denying that there are certain things you can do to thwart the glitch jabber. But it is always in the realm of playing "his" game. As long as he is determinined to abuse them you will spend the entire match trying to counter his glitch jab.
Ive said this before as well, even if you happen to fight through it and win does it really matter? The game is still laughably bad for allowing this tactic to be the central focus of the match. It looks horrible and will only make people look at the game and say "LOL, trash" Which is exactly the general FG community's take on MK to begin with. If we let them see this we are really gving them something to laugh at.

There is no going back to the "old way" This tactic has been showing up at tourneys more and more and will only continue as more players start coming to tourneys.

 

[Juggs]

Juggs, Im not disagreeing with alot of what your saying here, but remember this was on XBL. Built in input delay,lag and top it all off with online delay. Even though it was the online players that discovered this, the tactic works better offline, far better. Kabal can absolutely spin through your sweeps on reaction, REO was doing this constantly last Saturday At Nits house. Same goes for crossup jumps. Kabal has no problem nailing this everytime. and H.Smoke can neutral jump air throw. Again these things are MUCH easier to react to offline. Hell even I could do it. Even with c.LK if the Kabal player just happens to throw out a spin you are down nearly half your life and then he can REALLY turtle it up with the glitch jabs.

Again no one is denying that there are certain things you can do to thwart the glitch jabber. But it is always in the realm of playing "his" game. As long as he is determinined to abuse them you will spend the entire match trying to counter his glitch jab.
Ive said this before as well, even if you happen to fight through it and win does it really matter? The game is still laughably bad for allowing this tactic to be the central focus of the match. It looks horrible and will only make people look at the game and say "LOL, trash" Which is exactly the general FG community's take on MK to begin with. If we let them see this we are really gving them something to laugh at.

There is no going back to the "old way" This tactic has been showing up at tourneys more and more and will only continue as more players start coming to tourneys.

REO and I just played for a couple of hours on Kaillera. Now, I can't say much with justification since it's online, but there was ways I was countering the GJ's. He beat my uSub 10-4 with Kabal, which I think is how the match would go normally anyway. A lot of the times he was winning because of corner jab infinite, and random spins. Keep in mind, I wasn't GJ'ing back.

Then we started picking different characters, pretty much going back and forth. Near the end I picked Sonya and he used Kung. Now, a lot of shit that was happening REO says it was because of online. Since he has more experience offline I will take his word on it. But the series ended 11-2 with me winning. Bike kicks are hella safe online. As REO put it, I was run jabbing with Bike Kicks. I was stuffing his GJ's with c.lk and sweeps. He could NOT get in. He explained that this wouldn't happen offline, that he could get in with the GJ's. I was also stuffing the jabs with s.LK's and s.HK's. I don't think these are punishable except by Kabal, but I could be wrong. They aren't punishable online though, at least I don't think. Also, when you stop the opponent's GJ's and are close enough, you can put on the pressure. I was running in and did c.lk, then proceeded to rush down for free.

As far as online goes, GJ's are waay beatable. The only time I was having real trouble was against Kabal. But I never got dominated by Kabal's GJ's. As I said, I was losing to other things, including execution erros and mistakes.

Further testing needs to be done, offline. I need to play REO offline, or someone of equal skill.

 

[AC1984]

Rob I absolutely agree with you, the scenarios with the cheap bastard was hypothetical and of course it has nothing to do with you my friend. As you said- its not about finding ways to go around it, its about playing his game. The funny thing is that this is no longer a fighting game.....its a fucking animation and frame battle....whats the point of that...Juggs, I appreciate the efforts you've made to seek ways around this but remember, all scenarios like sweeps,kicks,crossups- this is a one time thing only....once Kabal gets you near the corner you're pretty much done. The whole point is that you'll always be the underdog no matter what, unless you're a very very very skilled player, veteran etc. As a mid-average umk3 player, I still look for fun then I look for opportunity to win....With this bullshit, the fun is gone. As Rob said other people will rather laugh on this than enjoy watching it. Right now with being around, the game is seriously digging a hole around it self. No matter how its gonna be played at tournaments, I'll always play it at Summoning's or Eric's place or vs the CPU.

 

[MKK hanzo]

Ok I will try to do something fancy here:

DC HUSTLE
I'm just trying to figure out what are all these counters that you guys are talking about? Please explain instead of keep saying there are ways around it. Most characters cannot deal with it, so it will come down to basically kabal vs hs. If you are not using 1 of the 2 you are not playing to win. If this tactic will be allowed at WB no need in anyone being mad because if you are not gonna use it, then you are not playing to win. If it's allowed why not use it? Why purposely dumb yourself down? It's corny as hell but until it's banned (which is pretty much impossible), you might as well rock with it. Personally, I choose not to deal with it and just stop playing it all together. It basically comes down to either you play it or don't. Afterall, no one is forced to play it. If you are gonna play it, no need in complaining about it because you know what the game has to offer.


Hanzo, if someone is using Kaball most of them scenarios are not poppin off. How are you gonna get space between a Gltich Jabbing Kabal? A good player is not gonna be at the opposite end of the screen using the gltich, they are gonna be at least mid screen so at this point projectiles and jumping back is not gonna work. I played marvin at WB and some of these scenarios came into play and it just wasn't working man. Kano has the fastest sweep and I swear he just about blocked every single one. Even if you do one projectile, right after that you are trapped again until you get another chance to throw another projectile... But OOPS... You're dead from chip damage.

Look at this:

I played marvin at WB and some of these scenarios came into play and it just wasn't working man. Kano has the fastest sweep and I swear he just about blocked every single one.

He was BLOCKING the sweeps so... he was taking CHIP damage. His jabs could not reach you so...

But OOPS... You're dead from chip damage.

How so?

Why do you think ppl here DONT abuse it? CAUSE THEY CANT, AND THEY WILL NOT WIN BY IT!

I think lots of ppl here need some clases of SPACING AND ZONNING in UMK3 here.

And this:

OJuggernautO

-Cross-up throws work even on Kabal, at least when he's Glitch Jabbing. I'm sure you can still get a spin in on cross-up throws, but I didn't get ONE spin when Lizard crossed me up.

-JK's work to an extent as well. I was aaSpinning him a lot when he would try a JK, but some of the time I couldn't stop GJ'ing in time, or the JK would beat my spin.

-Sweeps are actually better than I expected against this. At least with a few characters. Jax, Sonta, Kano, uSub etc, I couldn't punish his sweeps even with Kabal. Moreover, I couldn't even get in when he was excessively sweeping.

-You can out jab the GJ's. Even when I was Kabal, sometimes he would run in and kara jab me, and he would put me in block state and continue to rush down. It could have something to do with Frame Advantage though.

-Ducking LK's work. Rush in and do c.lk, it will put the GJ'er in block state. Even if they are rushing you with the GJ's, you can c.lk to stop the GJ's. You can even apply pressure afterwards.

As REO put it, I was run jabbing with Bike Kicks. I was stuffing his GJ's with c.lk and sweeps. He could NOT get in. He explained that this wouldn't happen offline, that he could get in with the GJ's. I was also stuffing the jabs with s.LK's and s.HK's. I don't think these are punishable except by Kabal, but I could be wrong. They aren't punishable online though, at least I don't think. Also, when you stop the opponent's GJ's and are close enough, you can put on the pressure. I was running in and did c.lk, then proceeded to rush down for free.

This all works OFFLINE Juggs and you are hitting the RIGHT NOTES here and doing it RIGHT. When you are holding Blk when GJ there is a small "delay" or something that "prevents"your specials to come out as fast as you would want. That shit of "psychyc" Spin Dash at any move IS BULLSHIT no one will do that consistently 100%. Karajab his shit out and bait the Spin.

Again I dont want to sound like a cock but this desperation about GJ comes only at mid-average level.

Why do you think that Marvin and CD in their matches DID NOT ABUSED this shit?

Do you think that if one of them would have do that he would have won?

Again and I will bold it for everyone, and please DONT BE OFFENDED BUT:



STEP YOUR DAMN GAME UP.



Back in the days of World Warrior, CE, HF, Super, and ST there were MANY cheap tactics and they were REALLY broken but you know what answer you get when you called back then "HEY TAHTS CHEAP!":

"Why do you left yourself to fall in? Its like chess, you can play against your opponent or against yourself if YOU DONT KNOW what you are doing"

**Mike Watson, Top SF Player from USA**

The thing here ppl is, that NO ONE was prepared for that kind of playstyle, and thats a style that CD played online and no one ever got into, when Marvin destroyed everyone then everyone wants to be like him and when they discover HOW POWERFULL GJ is then the ones that cannot/dont know how to counter it call it cheap.

I remember saying to Tim via PM on Facebook when we were planning to assist to SB5 (RZP, Humberto and me), I told him very clearly:

"Tim everything is allowed? If we go there, ppl will stop playing UMK3 cause, at high level its a fucking ugly nightmare, believe me we will expose all the game´s faults if we play it 100%"

Ask him if you dont believe me.

It was a matter of time that someone like Marv or CD destroyed everyones dreams of UMK3 being fancy and good and fair.

NO ITS NOT.

An here we come were you have to ask:

DO YOU PLAY TO WIN OR DO YOU PLAY FOR FUN?

I play to win if anyone is wondering. the fact that we ban some stuff here doesnt mean that we didnt played with them in the past and if for example a "no rules" tourney come up, it doesnt mean that we will not use them. No. Fuck honor, I wanna be the best and win and I will use all that is allowed to do it.

Sirlin have some pretty neat articles about that. And one Sig that Juggs had was from there I think:

If you dont adapt,you will not survive.

IF YOU WANT TO BE THE BEST YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE "ANNOMALIES" OF THE GAME AND OVERCOME THEM.

If you are happy playing the game for fun and combos and giggles then yeah, GJ might be too much for you, but here we separate the ones that want to be BETTER or AIM TO BE THE BEST or simply doesnt care to lose, or play while drinking and blah blah blah.

is up to you guys.

And plz stop believing that if an HD collection comes out this willbe fixed, this is PART of the gameplay, this is the REAL HIGH LEVEL of the game and SHOULD remain the same unless you want to play UMK3-SF 4 like.

IE: DUMBED DOWN.

 

[Dark_Rob]

Again guys, we arent saying there are no ways around it. I havent ever said there is no way whatsoever to deal with glitch jabs, but here i will write it again, There are ways to deal with glitch jabs
There now that we all agree on that, our problem is that it is still an overly dominant tactic that more and more people are beginning to use because its so solid. Our problem is that it makes the game looks utterly stupid to anyone observing it. And our problem is it makes playing the game more of a chore than anything else.

I am not complaining that people are cheap for using glitch jabs, the high level player will use any and all legal means to win. This goes beyond any of that. We are saying the glitch jab is here to stay, whether its the "stand in place and jab all day" IGB version or the Marvirrasta "do 2 or 3 of them and move foward and do it again until I get them in the corner and corner inf them" version. It makes no difference. They are the same basic idea being used a little differently. Saying they are not the same is just splitting hairs. They both look equally stupid.

@Hanzo- What match were you watching? Marv vs CD at NEC was exactly what I just described above. Every match was almost the same, Marv would push CD into the corner and just jab him to death. CD even said "It was to much, what could I do against THAT?"
Until youve played Marvirrasta you cant understand what it is to be pressured by him. And he is 90% safe while doing all of this. Sure you can catch a sweep here and there but its practically luck.

 

[MKK hanzo]

Again guys, we arent saying there are no ways around it. I havent ever said there is no way whatsoever to deal with glitch jabs, but here i will write it again, There are ways to deal with glitch jabs

There is ppl dropping the game by that in this same thread. That is very discouraging IMO cause then everyone will be stuck at one point in competitive level while others will evolve UP.

am not complaining that people are cheap for using glitch jabs, the high level player will use any and all legal means to win. This goes beyond any of that. We are saying the glitch jab is here to stay, whether its the "stand in place and jab all day" IGB version or the Marvirrasta "do 2 or 3 of them and move foward and do it again until I get them in the corner and corner inf them" version. It makes no difference. They are the same basic idea being used a little differently. Saying they are not the same is just splitting hairs. They both look equally stupid.

LOL IDK why ppl make such a big deal of this. hahahahahaha someone doing that will not last a few matches here.

@Hanzo- What match were you watching? Marv vs CD at NEC was exactly what I just described above. Every match was almost the same, Marv would push CD into the corner and just jab him to death. CD even said "It was to much, what could I do against THAT?"
Until youve played Marvirrasta you cant understand what it is to be pressured by him. And he is 90% safe while doing all of this. Sure you can catch a sweep here and there but its practically luck.

Any match, it doesnt matter wich on eI watch, if CD REALLY said that then Im sorry for that, I didnt expected to hear that from HIM. And again, its all abaout ZONING AND SPACING, when and WHERE todo stuff and not. There is no easy way here. Pure skill and game knowledge.

i dont need to play marvin to know what is that, in fact, you should say to yourself: "I SHOULD PLAY MARVIN MOR TO UNDERSTAND WHY I CANNOT WIN"

I play like that, I do what he does, I KNOW why he does stuff and why not too, and there are ppl out there (again, Domincian Republic) that play WAY BETTER than him and anybody and are ppl that have exploited the game to its very maximum, they do stuff that are unconceivable even by me in real tourney gameplay.

Again, ppl are making much of a deal of this.

My advice is that get accustomed or drop the game, just like that.

THERE ARE WAYS around that shit, its up to you to find them out, enough "hand-guiding" from here on.

 

[Juggs]

There's definitely ways to beat this. In fact, the ways to beat it make it so that you don't even want to GJ that often. When REO and I were playing, he was only GJ'ing and he was losing a ton of matches. Once he stopped using them, that's when he started to win. He didn't completely abandon them, but he kinda used them in a Marvirrasta kind of way. TAKE NOTE, I was not using GJ's to beat his GJ's. I was simply doing many other things that beat this tactic. When I threw in my own GJ's, it was like a whole new HIGH LEVEL experience. Even online, I can tell how great it is to be able to defeat these jabs and use them too. It doesn't make the game look bad because no one is going to be able to do what IGB did and win. Not if everyone learns how to beat the glitch. Yes, you WILL eventually have to learn how to use them. But as I said, I was beating REO while he was GJ'ing and I WASN'T. It's basically just an extension of the Kara Jab. It's hard to deal with in some situations, but so is A LOT of things in this game.

I know, a lot of you are probably like "WTF Juggs, you started this thread saying how bad this glitch is and saying the GJ's were completely broken". Well, yes, but words of players much better than myself made me want to test some shit out. So, REO and I tested it for 6 hours, where I had already semi-tested them out with Lizard King. 9 hours of GJ'ing!!!!

If you refuse to learn how to beat these GJ's, then that is unfortunate. What needs to be done is you need to open your mind. Don't be stubborn to what you have previously seen or taken part of. I say try and learn the ins and outs of these GJ's, then if you don't like what you see, I won't think less of you for quitting.

Listen to Hanzo, ded_ and Lex!

 

[MKK hanzo]

There's definitely ways to beat this. In fact, the ways to beat it make it so that you don't even want to GJ that often. When REO and I were playing, he was only GJ'ing and he was losing a ton of matches. Once he stopped using them, that's when he started to win. He didn't completely abandon them, but he kinda used them in a Marvirrasta kind of way. TAKE NOTE, I was not using GJ's to beat his GJ's. I was simply doing many other things that beat this tactic. When I threw in my own GJ's, it was like a whole new HIGH LEVEL experience. Even online, I can tell how great it is to be able to defeat these jabs and use them too. It doesn't make the game look bad because no one is going to be able to do what IGB did and win. Not if everyone learns how to beat the glitch. Yes, you WILL eventually have to learn how to use them. But as I said, I was beating REO while he was GJ'ing and I WASN'T. It's basically just an extension of the Kara Jab. It's hard to deal with in some situations, but so is A LOT of things in this game.

I know, a lot of you are probably like "WTF Juggs, you started this thread saying how bad this glitch is and saying the GJ's were completely broken". Well, yes, but words of players much better than myself made me want to test some shit out. So, REO and I tested it for 6 hours, where I had already semi-tested them out with Lizard King. 9 hours of GJ'ing!!!!

If you refuse to learn how to beat these GJ's, then that is unfortunate. What needs to be done is you need to open your mind. Don't be stubborn to what you have previously seen or taken part of. I say try and learn the ins and outs of these GJ's, then if you don't like what you see, I won't think less of you for quitting.

Listen to Hanzo, ded_ and Lex!

This made my day! Thx for the props.

 

[NoDoubt]

^ - heres the finals.


The matches between Marvirrasta and kanomk2 cant really be used as an example of how raging his jabs can be because iv seen them all and those are casual games. Iv played with Marv a lot and watched him fight and there comes a point in a long set of games where after about 30-40 matches, he'll cut playing casually and go into serious all out-explicit glitch jabbing. He will no longer do any special moves, jump or anything and will constantly be on top of you jabbing...not stationary either.

The video above has a"few" examples of this...he wasnt even playing CD seriously for every single match either. The serious ones are the ones where CD sstuck in the corner and cant do shit. He even made him morph into human smoke...teleport to try and escape the jabs, but as shock said teleporters arent even his strong point.

Watching videos and playing against the player first hand are completely different experiences. everyones knows this but its very difficult to put into words wat were talking about. Maybe we could be wrong and in-experienced and totally un-trained, or maybe not. We CANT decipher that because neither of us are playing against the dominican republic/venezuela crew...and neither of them are playing against the American crew. The only thing again we have is videos and comments...which cant exactly show the point. All of us need to try and play against eachother one day, somehow to see what where talking about and come to a conclusion.


Juggernauts points and Hanzos in my opinion are all correct. Theres ways around the jabs...but these jabs are still destroying the community by dumbing the game down to a level of chip-damage fiasco matches. 2 -players can literally jabb eachother to chip-damaged death by the time the timer runs out.

Being Kabal and using this in a stationary position already forces your opponent to back off and throw projectiles at you. And then this will make you advance foward and continue doing it till ur opponents close enough to start sweeping you and risking a spin punisher. You jump over kabal, u get cross fire spun. Some people just say...ok use a teleporter.

But these "solutions" still "force" you to play a "certain" way win or lose and THAT alone proves the jabs have some dominating factor within the gameplay system. If something so stupid has to make you play a certain way you may not wanna play like for the entire duration of the entire match then thats wrong.



Ill just say this too. Again, we cant really prove any one of ourselves correct on this, but the above video is probably the strongest proof of how dominant the jabs can be...even against someone like Crazy Dominican who has a master ability with tactive-mind game strategies. Doing the jabs and charging you down with them eliminates all mind game options and just pushes you in the corner. I still havent seen anyone us this like Marvirrasta.

 

[MKK hanzo]

^ - heres the finals.


The matches between Marvirrasta and kanomk2 cant really be used as an example of how raging his jabs can be because iv seen them all and those are casual games. Iv played with Marv a lot and watched him fight and there comes a point in a long set of games where after about 30-40 matches, he'll cut playing casually and go into serious all out-explicit glitch jabbing. He will no longer do any special moves, jump or anything and will constantly be on top of you jabbing...not stationary either.

The video above has a"few" examples of this...he wasnt even playing CD seriously for every single match either. The serious ones are the ones where CD sstuck in the corner and cant do shit. He even made him morph into human smoke...teleport to try and escape the jabs, but as shock said teleporters arent even his strong point.

Watching videos and playing against the player first hand are completely different experiences. everyones knows this but its very difficult to put into words wat were talking about. Maybe we could be wrong and in-experienced and totally un-trained, or maybe not. We CANT decipher that because neither of us are playing against the dominican republic/venezuela crew...and neither of them are playing against the American crew. The only thing again we have is videos and comments...which cant exactly show the point. All of us need to try and play against eachother one day, somehow to see what where talking about and come to a conclusion.


Juggernauts points and Hanzos in my opinion are all correct. Theres ways around the jabs...but these jabs are still destroying the community by dumbing the game down to a level of chip-damage fiasco matches. 2 -players can literally jabb eachother to chip-damaged death by the time the timer runs out.

Being Kabal and using this in a stationary position already forces your opponent to back off and throw projectiles at you. And then this will make you advance foward and continue doing it till ur opponents close enough to start sweeping you and risking a spin punisher. You jump over kabal, u get cross fire spun. Some people just say...ok use a teleporter.

But these "solutions" still "force" you to play a "certain" way win or lose and THAT alone proves the jabs have some dominating factor within the gameplay system. If something so stupid has to make you play a certain way you may not wanna play like for the entire duration of the entire match then thats wrong.



Ill just say this too. Again, we cant really prove any one of ourselves correct on this, but the above video is probably the strongest proof of how dominant the jabs can be...even against someone like Crazy Dominican who has a master ability with tactive-mind game strategies. Doing the jabs and charging you down with them eliminates all mind game options and just pushes you in the corner. I still havent seen anyone us this like Marvirrasta.

Thats a high level match to me (the red bolded part). Playing safe, not looking for fancy combos and not doing stupid shit and PLAYING TO WIN.

Whenever I see a match where no combos occur and the fight is mostly chips, some sweeps and some AA etc thats high level to me. I dont know I still have that old SF2/MKI mentality where big combos/supers doing 45% of damage without skill are "dumb".

But well.... Thats just IMO.

EDIT: Why this mentallity all of a sudden? Comes someone like Marv and destroys everyone fav star (CD) then the game is trash?

Its like if we call cheap Daigo everytime he comes to EVO in America and owns everyione?

STEPUP TO MARV LEVEL AND BEYOND!

 

[AC1984]

The example with Daigo is so out of place...That man is all about mind games combined with skills...no talks that the game is trash...some people just dont wanna play it that way....Those matches are awesome and high level but one of the players is simply struggling all the time as you can see.....Same match is Hanzo VS RZP where Rzp played 2 NWs and one Smoke before he lost....the whole time even without GJ Hanzo was completely dominating and dictating the parade. Put some GJ on top of that and the other player has nothing....you can clearly see that sweeps, tactics, etc are just prolonging the victory. High level matches should be about mind games, flashy combos that would actually motivate other people to pick up the game. My perception is not about who has better skills with LP,BLK and Run....thats just imo. I admire player like ded_ who have an enormous vocabulary of solid combos,punishers, mind games and knowledge.

 

[NoDoubt]

Well thats the thing right now...that the highest level of player has come down to chip damage fests. No more mind games or or tactile strategies can be used when 2 players are just jabbing eachother and forcing eachother to go in block frames.

Hanzo, I like all your videos and I think thats how the game should be played. This is what I like watching...back when marv can still jab but maybe didnt do it AS persistently or spamming it as bad. This is also high level to me...just funner and more enjoyable because both players are using a strategy and not just sitting there punching and blocking.

^ - Btw this is marvirrasta VS DC Hustle back in 08. Taught me a lot watchin this last yr

 

[AC1984]

duel of titans 1 and 2 are awesome even tho they are online.

 

[MKK hanzo]

Well thats the thing right now...that the highest level of player has come down to chip damage fests. No more mind games or or tactile strategies can be used when 2 players are just jabbing eachother and forcing eachother to go in block frames.

Hanzo, I like all your videos and I think thats how the game should be played. This is what I like watching...back when marv can still jab but maybe didnt do it AS persistently or spamming it as bad. This is also high level to me...just funner and more enjoyable because both players are using a strategy and not just sitting there punching and blocking.

^ - Btw this is marvirrasta VS DC Hustle back in 08. Taught me a lot watchin this last yr

Hahah man I know what you mean but remember that there is a line that separates the ones that want to win and the ones that dont play to win just for fun.

Im on the "play to win" bandwagon so I MUST adapt to my opponent and know beforehand EVERY tactic and quirk of the game and HOW to react at every position, spacing, etc.

If Marv does GJ to you mid match is cause HE KNOWS that you dont know how to counter and to upset you. Being upset/nervous in a fight drives you todo stupid things.

And yes, UMK3 is no piece of cake and "it aint no beauty" at high level. For good or for bad that seems a fact.

 

[ded]

There's definitely ways to beat this.

Told ya

To Hanzo:
1. relaunchers are not broken and i find it funny you disable them
2. the corner trap was discussed already, and i dont want to go through this again, but it was decided not to ban it

 

[Dark_Rob]

I think one of the biggest problems we are having here is about perception. There is the way we would LIKE high level UMK3 to be, and then there is the way high level UMK3 actually IS.
Imo the way high level UMK3 actually is does not look good to the outside world, and even to some of its own players. But I cant deny that it IS at the highest level. People like Marvirrasta win matches because of his mastery of jabbing. So when people like Lex and Hanzo say step your game up, learn to do what Marv does and then learn to do it better they are 100% right. The question is do we want to go down that road? Do we want to give up on our fantasy of what we would like high level UMK3 to be in favor of learning the real thing? I dont know, I dont have the anwsers right now. I am one confused individual.

 

[MKK hanzo]

I think one of the biggest problems we are having here is about perception. There is the way we would LIKE high level UMK3 to be, and then there is the way high level UMK3 actually IS.
Imo the way high level UMK3 actually is does not look good to the outside world, and even to some of its own players. But I cant deny that it IS at the highest level. People like Marvirrasta win matches because of his mastery of jabbing. So when people like Lex and Hanzo say step your game up, learn to do what Marv does and then learn to do it better they are 100% right. The question is do we want to go down that road? Do we want to give up on our fantasy of what we would like high level UMK3 to be in favor of learning the real thing? I dont know, I dont have the anwsers right now. I am one confused individual.

Rob that is one damn GOOD answer. And I meant it. Is what I have been trying to say but due to my language barrier I havent managed to do it...

@Ded:

No prob, we ban them but I can use it the day we play (I hope) and you will see why we do it hahahahahah and Ilove ya too.

And Im not voting for ban those 2 stuff I just compared that we HERE have them banned but if ppl agree not to ban then... Its your hell!

EDIT:

@Ded: Why do you only have 3 posts here? YOU NEED TO POST MORE FUCKER!! Dont be so EMO. (JK)

 

[Dark_Rob]

Rob that is one damn GOOD answer. And I meant it. Is what I have been trying to say but due to my language barrier I havent managed to do it.

The first thing a person like me must do is to realize i dont have all the anwsers, even if I would like to have them I dont. This thread is jampacked with posts from some of the greatest UMK3 players on the planet. Players way better than me and who know far more about the game than I do, and all of them with differing opinions. At the beginnning of the this thread Juggernaut and Reo were hardcore against the glitch jabs, now they are changing they're tune. I know Juggs and Reo, Ive met Juggs in real life and Ive hung out and played with Reo many times. They are both intelligent,rational, logical people. They would not change they're positions for no reason. Because I know them I know there must be substance to what they are saying.

Whatever we do I think its important to not act rashly, give it time. I realize earlier I was willing to give up UMK3 because I believed the game was just to broken. Now I do not know. I have had my head swung 180 degrees and back again over and over during this. When you panic or let emotion dictate your thinking it clouds your judgement.
I will breath, relax and trust in the wisdom of the community to work through this. UMK3 has been around since 1995. It has died many deaths, and been resurrected just as many times. This cannot be the end.

 

[Juggs]

I can't believe I ever complained about GJ's, seriously.

 

[Juggs]

Double Post.

The Glitch Jab's are no longer as "game breaking" as I originally thought. It actually makes the game better in some aspects. A lot of what some of the old school vets are/were afraid of isn't going to happen. Allow me to explain.

Phil was discussing with me over AIM the other day about how GJ's will look really bad on the stream. And I guess, if people were to use ONLY GJ's, and not know how to beat them... I would agree. However, no one is going to do that, NO ONE. If they do, they will lose 100% of the time. That is, if they are playing against a player that knows how to defeat it. Rob was also saying that even though it's beatable, he also thought it will look bad. Trust me, it's not going to look like what you think.

So many things beat the GJ's, in the majority of the situations, you'll be at a disadvantage if you're just GJ'ing. Some of you have said that even though it's beatable, you don't want to play the game with it in there. My response to that would be, learn to beat them and use them before you quit. "I don't want to use that cheap tactic", as I have already said, it's only cheap on the surface. The concept of it is ridiculous, and it looks dumb. HOWEVER, once you have knowledge of how it works, how to beat it, and how to utilize it... not only is it no longer ridiculous or dumb looking, it's quite amazing actually.

Some characters will be played differently than we're used to. Some characters will go up in the rankings now too. Such as Sonya and USub.

Sonya is VERY good at beating the GJ's. Not only can she easily defend against them, once she's in she can apply crazy pressure. She can't really use them herself, at least not with the LP version. Since you will be doing random Leg Grabs on accident when you attempt them. She can however use the HP version, which isn't nearly as useful. Usub is good at beating them, and using them himself. His IceClone is a lot more useful now, as well as his zoning tools. In fact, every zoning character is better now. Reptile benefits from zoning now. Add that in with his invisibility, he becomes a REAL force. Robot Smoke with invisibility is crazy good too, as he's always been. Lex was really telling the truth about invis shenanigans beating the GJ's.

In a nutshell, the GJ's do more good for the game than bad. It makes the game more footsie based. It makes defensive and zoning characters better, and actually viable. It adds a new layer of depth for the high level player. It makes some characters better, such as the one's mentioned above. Rushdown will still be the best tactic, but now zoning is an actual threat. I cannot believe how we were playing the game before, no wonder Marv rapes everyone.

DO NOT QUIT THE GAME. Hanzo, Lex and ded_ were right all along. Arguably the 3 best players in the world were saying what I just said, why was no one listening to them? Well, I did listen, and now I agree 100% with what they were saying.

LEVEL YOUR GAME UP!

 

[DC HUSTLE]

So basically GJ's are gonna have to become apart of how the game is played? Alright then, everyone might as well learn how to use it in their game. Alot of good points but we'll see how everything plays out, let's just give it a few tournies I guess. Regardless if there are ways around it, it's still better to use than not to because it helps you be safe. I guess we'll experiment with it and come up with solid ways to stop it, and then drop a guide. I hope I can make it to Winter Brawl. This is why we need a fucking training mode.

 

[9.95]

This is why we need a fucking training mode.

AMEN!

 

[ded]

Dont forget you can stop GJ with GJ. And this is not MKT, so repeatative countering GJ with GJ is more complex and almost useless in competetive match.

Maybe just a quick guide vs Kabal's GJ would be helpful, because i really dont see how this could be a problem for the other characters in the game (although some low/mid - tiers could take advantage of it - like Usub).

To Hanzo: Man...if relaunchers are so easy, why even in your combo vids they are blockable?
The corner trap may be bannable for MKT, but i dont see a reason to do it for UMK3.

And btw, say to rho-DICK "Holla, marico!" from me!