How glitch jabs affect UMK3

[Juggs]

There's been a lot of discussion recently about the glitch/kara jabs. For those that don't know, glitch jabbing is where you repeatedly throw out HP's or LP's while blocking. A kara jab is where you throw out one HP or LP and cancel it with block. We see players like Marvirrasta who have mastered the tactic, use it to it's fullest. Especially with Kabal, who has the best jabs, priority and the spin to keep you honest.

How do these jabs effect the game? I for one don't have a problem with Kara Jabs. They work well for UMK3, and are an integral part of high level play. Glitch jabbing is much different though. You can literally stand in one spot the entire match while attacking, but be 100% safe the entire time. We first saw this at an offline tournament at Summer Jam. MIGB abused this tactic through the whole tournament, and managed to win as well. He is a good player, not trying to disrespect him. We then have seen it at NEC, in a slightly different way.

Marv uses them while moving. I'd even say he's mastered them. Almost every single jab he throws out is protected and safe. Also, if you try to stop his onslaught, he will just auto-block then punish you with a spin. Marvirrasta also won that tournament, beating a pretty tough field. Again, not showing disrespect, Marv is an amazing player.

These two examples are to highlight how dominant this tactic is. It is no coincidence that the winners of these tournaments are the ones taking these glitch jabs to the fullest.

But what can be done? I don't think anything can be done, to be honest. There's no way you can ban this tactic. The best you could do is ban Kabal and Human Smoke, but even then you'll still see the tactic by players who want to win. It just won't be as bad, but still overly dominant.

These jabs make the game boring and really dumbed down. It takes away a lot of the mind games and high level aspects, cause literally almost everything you do is safe. It turns into a chip damage, turtle, run away fest, that is not what UMK3 is about, at all.

All I can say is, either play or don't play. We can't do anything about these jabs now, with the game being so old. We can only hope for a UMK3 HD, where they limit the jabs to only one jab while blocking, aka Kara Jabbing. And possibly nerf Kabal's spin, lol.


What is everyone's opinion on this? I know I have already heard a lot of people's point of view on this, but if you want to share feel free to do so.

UPDATE: My WHOLE view about this has changed. Read it here: http://testyourmight.com/forum/showthread.php?2789-How-glitch-jabs-affect-UMK3&p=30776&viewfull=1#post30776

 

[THTB]

It's not something you can really ban. As awful as glitch jab is, you can't actually do anything about it. The only thing is to just play the game. If people want to still play UMK3 despite this, they will. If they don't, they won't.

You never know, we may find a counter for it if we keep playing.

 

[Juggs]

It takes an extremely fast player to use this tactic to best use its properties, but if two evenly matched opponents were to play this way it wouldn't look much different than high level MK1, only with running to remove the space between chars. So MK2 is the best is what you are saying Juggs?

I hate MK2, lol. You can do this in MK2 as well you just can't run.

 

[AC1984]

Here is my opinion, hate me all you want: first of all, kara jabs are OK and those contribute a lot to every players style. Glitch jabs on the other hand completely take away from the beauty of the game.My explanation for that is online play.Apparently good combos do not work online and that's why people prefer to go with being glitch jabbers rather than comboers which is fine...you gotta win, right? What I dont like is that the whole thing is becoming super popular and even seeing how stupid it looks at summer jam, people still want to do it....cool that's fine, as Juggs said- play or dont play....Unfortunately its not my thing and I am maybe old fashioned and like old school game play, but if this style continues to grow and people start using it more and more, I'll have to call it a day and play that game for fun only at Nit's place.No disrespect to players who are using it and are true masters of the tactics...Its just my opinion....

P.S. lots of stuff can be banned from the game.The dudes in Venezuela dont do corner infs and relaunchers...Maybe if we can all sit down and discuss these things, we can come up with reasonable rules. Also, from the prospective of a dude who is looking for some fun at the UMK3 station, this glitch concept sounds very discouraging. As a conclusion, I like the glitch think if its used from time to time but when someone abuses it, it makes me not wanna play at all......

peace!!!

 

[Dark_Rob]

There's been a lot of discussion recently about the glitch/kara jabs. For those that don't know, glitch jabbing is where you repeatedly throw out HP's or LP's while blocking. A kara jab is where you throw out one HP or LP and cancel it with block. We see players like Marvirrasta who have mastered the tactic, use it to it's fullest. Especially with Kabal, who has the best jabs, priority and the spin to keep you honest.

How do these jabs effect the game? I for one don't have a problem with Kara Jabs. They work well for UMK3, and are an integral part of high level play. Glitch jabbing is much different though. You can literally stand in one spot the entire match while attacking, but be 100% safe the entire time. We first saw this at an offline tournament at Summer Jam. MIGB abused this tactic through the whole tournament, and managed to win as well. He is a good player, not trying to disrespect him. We then have seen it at NEC, in a slightly different way.

Marv uses them while moving. I'd even say he's mastered them. Almost every single jab he throws out is protected and safe. Also, if you try to stop his onslaught, he will just auto-block then punish you with a spin. Marvirrasta also won that tournament, beating a pretty tough field. Again, not showing disrespect, Marv is an amazing player.

These two examples are to highlight how dominant this tactic is. It is no coincidence that the winners of these tournaments are the ones taking these glitch jabs to the fullest.

But what can be done? I don't think anything can be done, to be honest. There's no way you can ban this tactic. The best you could do is ban Kabal and Human Smoke, but even then you'll still see the tactic by players who want to win. It just won't be as bad, but still overly dominant.

These jabs make the game boring and really dumbed down. It takes away a lot of the mind games and high level aspects, cause literally almost everything you do is safe. It turns into a chip damage, turtle, run away fest, that is not what UMK3 is about, at all.

All I can say is, either play or don't play. We can't do anything about these jabs now, with the game being so old. We can only hope for a UMK3 HD, where they limit the jabs to only one jab while blocking, aka Kara Jabbing. And possibly nerf Kabal's spin, lol.


What is everyone's opinion on this? I know I have already heard a lot of people's point of view on this, but if you want to share feel free to do so.

Juggs I agree with every damn thing you said. Literally every single thing. Phil and I have been talking on the phone for the past 3 hours about this and came no closer to a solution than you did. We dont know what can be done about this. We know we cant ban it and at the same time we know it ruins an otherwise beautiful game. I agree wholeheartedly the ONLY viable solution would be for this glitch to be eliminated in UMK3 HD.

 

[9.95]

Juggs, I applaud what you've written because you're completely right. Unfortunately, it has ruined UMK3 for me. What I'm about to say pains me greatly... UMK3 is ruined for me and I will no longer be playing it... but only running it in tournaments..

UMK3 HD... simply limit to 1 punch then block overrides.... please change it in HD... it's the only hope for UMK3 at this point.

 

[Check]

Ban Throws will always be the answer to me. Sorry, but thats just the way i feel. The game is better WITH throws, but unfortunatly they do not fit into the puzzle. Just the way i see it. People say "But then UMK will be a blockfest!!" What exactly is it now?

By banning throws will allow hk/lk to beat out glitch jabs.

 

[9.95]

that's the problem, Check... NOTHING beats glitch jabs other than glitch jabs.... it's very boring and makes the game an entirely different game..... not a game I will be participating in anymore... I am officially retired unless this is fixed in HD.

 

[DanCock]

this happens alot in MK2, especially on PSN O_O ... and every time i play UMK3 it tends to be vs reo so i been dealing with this for a while and bitching about it with no one really hearing what i had to say, guess i didnt bitch about it enough.

i been working on using it myself, i find it to be 100% easier to do on a pad, so im thinking about converting, and becoming a pad player for MK :X

 

[Check]

explain to me how im wrong if throws are disabled and 2 people run up at the same time, one does lp, one does hk, THE THROW AINT THERE ANYMORE TO WIN WITH. nightwolf can land lk from far away. understand that everywhere i went throws were disabled growing up, i've played my entire life that way and i know the game is playable that way.

so its your choice to either retire or 100 100

 

[McNasty]

Im so salty from people doing this online I cant even respond intelligently to this great thread. $#@&*% Def jabs glitch jabs whatever they are called I HATE EM AND THEY STANK!!!!!!!!!!!!

How does marv do it?

Its a strange grey area between being broken and kara jabbing everything.

Seriously though the game is pRo(E)GRESSING.

-Salty McJealous.

 

[Check]

basically, a well-timed and well-spaced hk/lk will beat a glitch jab, because the throw wont be there to take priority over it everytime.

 

[9.95]

explain to me how im wrong if throws are disabled and 2 people run up at the same time, one does lp, one does hk, THE THROW AINT THERE ANYMORE TO WIN WITH. nightwolf can land lk from far away. understand that everywhere i went throws were disabled growing up, i've played my entire life that way and i know the game is playable that way.

so its your choice to either retire or 100 100

no, because the person glitch jabbing will still block the kick... or punch, or special move... because that's the property of the glitch jab... it has NOTHING to do with throws...

 

[Dark_Rob]

explain to me how im wrong if throws are disabled and 2 people run up at the same time, one does lp, one does hk, THE THROW AINT THERE ANYMORE TO WIN WITH. nightwolf can land lk from far away. understand that everywhere i went throws were disabled growing up, i've played my entire life that way and i know the game is playable that way.

so its your choice to either retire or 100 100

Check it has nothing to do with throws. The glitch jab is a flaw in the game that lets you jab over and over while holding block and holding down/back. It is a total defensive posture while still being offensive. No move can get around it. If you run up to someone and high kick all you will do is trigger the block and because of the recovery of a high kick your likely to get spun or popped up for your trouble.

EDIT: when I said no move will get around it thats not entirely true. Characters that have unblockable like Sheevas stomp or Jax's ground pound will defeat it. But thats about it.

 

[Shock]

Cross up throws can work against glitch jabs on characters that aren't Kabal. Players aren't trying to throw you when they are run jabbing or kara jabbing, being thrown is a bi-product of the attempted rush down to force a mistake.

I can spot the glitch jabs easily and accurately, and would be able to personally enforce a ban ruling, but I can't say the same for other tournaments. It's just a nuisance that sadly is going to need to be dealt with until players tire of using it. It's a scrubby horrendous tactic that makes up for lack of skill since it actually can win matches.

Again I am specifically referring to when someone is standing far enough away from a player where jabs will not connect, and they are blocking sweeps standing on a consistent basis, with little to no movement whatsoever, abusing punishes on players who try to chip the jabs. There's no reason for anyone to stand and jab in place.

Arion and I brainstormed after I tested some inputs in MAME the other night, and we discovered that you can effectively eliminate glitch jabs by assigning HP and LP to the block button as well as block itself. This worked well until I realized that if you kara jab and actually block an attack, you will always do a second jab, however still standing block, and also, if you spam block enough eventually it'll catch the end of a frame and start jabbing. Essentially what happens is, you do a jab, hold block, and then it sees block being pressed twice, on top of itself, and if you're holding block while you're jabbing, it will force block. This, and making the corner jab pushback window smaller would ultimately be the biggest changes I'd make to UMK3.

If players are going to intentionally bring this tactic to tournaments, we'll immediately see player turnouts go out the window, so it's up to you guys. Use it if you want, but you won't be using it for long. I will never abuse this strategy because I personally feel against the right player, you actually lose options, but that's just me. I can beat this strategy but there are enough players who don't want to be bothered.

 

[Dark_Rob]

Cross up throws can work against glitch jabs on characters that aren't Kabal. Players aren't trying to throw you when they are run jabbing or kara jabbing, being thrown is a bi-product of the attempted rush down to force a mistake.

I can spot the glitch jabs easily and accurately, and would be able to personally enforce a ban ruling, but I can't say the same for other tournaments. It's just a nuisance that sadly is going to need to be dealt with until players tire of using it. It's a scrubby horrendous tactic that makes up for lack of skill since it actually can win matches.

Again I am specifically referring to when someone is standing far enough away from a player where jabs will not connect, and they are blocking sweeps standing on a consistent basis, with little to no movement whatsoever, abusing punishes on players who try to chip the jabs. There's no reason for anyone to stand and jab in place.

REO and I brainstormed after I tested some inputs in MAME the other night, and we discovered that you can effectively eliminate glitch jabs by assigning HP and LP to the block button as well as block itself. This worked well until I realized that if you kara jab and actually block an attack, you will always do a second jab, however still standing block, and also, if you spam block enough eventually it'll catch the end of a frame and start jabbing. Essentially what happens is, you do a jab, hold block, and then it sees block being pressed twice, on top of itself, and if you're holding block while you're jabbing, it will force block. This, and making the corner jab pushback window smaller would ultimately be the biggest changes I'd make to UMK3.

If players are going to intentionally bring this tactic to tournaments, we'll immediately see player turnouts go out the window, so it's up to you guys. Use it if you want, but you won't be using it for long. I will never abuse this strategy because I personally feel against the right player, you actually lose options, but that's just me. I can beat this strategy but there are enough players who don't want to be bothered.

Shock you know Ive got nothing but love and respect for you, but I have to disagree with two points.

1. No I dont believe we can ban it. It is one thing for you to say "I can spot when someone is glitch jabbing" and quite another to make a ruling on it.
Lets say we make a rule at a tournament saying glitch jabs are banned. The first question we will get asked is "What does that mean?" "How many jabs can I do before its considered a glitch jab?" "Is it ok if I do a few then move up and do a few more?" "What happens if I accidentally do one to many? Am I disqualified?"
See its not so simple. And even if you get by that you are going to have the players who will do everything they can to push the rule to the limit. If we say the limit is 4 jabs people will do 4 jabs, release block for a second and then do another 4 jabs. We cannot regulate this. I believe that whole heartedly.

2. You have incredible skills bro, no doubt. But even you cannot beat this tactic when used even moderately compentantly. This does not mean your not good. Its just means that glitch jabs are to good. Reo proved this unquestionably at Nits house. He wasnt even trying bro. He was just standing there glitch jabbing and spinning you the moment you tried to do anything. Again this is not a diss on your talent. Its a diss on the tactic. Its to good. Reo is good, but hes not THAT good that he should be able to beat you 8 or 9 in a row without even trying. The Glitch jab is broke, beyond broke even, and its why many of us are considering dropping the game altogether.

 

[Shock]

You absolutely can ban it, you just have to literally referee matches or set up an input monitor for MAME that can detect when all the corresponding buttons are being held and punches are being spammed. You can't do that by accident. I know that's a ridiculous way to enforce it but it is possible. It's more blatant than I think you realize and it's absolutely ban worthy, however players might contend that they aren't using it which is a crock if they do because it's obvious when it's being used. I agree it's very hard to beat, but certain characters can contend with it, more or less depending on if the opponent is Kabal. He's hard enough to beat as it is. REO got a bunch of wins using it against me, but he did lose some dumb match ups using it as well. It really turns the game into a monotonous, unfun chipfest.

 

[Dark_Rob]

You absolutely can ban it, you just have to literally referee matches or set up an input monitor for MAME that can detect when all the corresponding buttons are being held and punches are being spammed. You can't do that by accident. I know that's a ridiculous way to enforce it but it is possible. It's more blatant than I think you realize and it's absolutely ban worthy, however players might contend that they aren't using it which is a crock if they do because it's obvious when it's being used. I agree it's very hard to beat, but certain characters can contend with it, more or less depending on if the opponent is Kabal. He's hard enough to beat as it is. REO got a bunch of wins using it against me, but he did lose some dumb match ups using it as well. It really turns the game into a monotonous, unfun chipfest.

Shock Im not debating whether you can referee it or monitor it. Im saying you have to make a definitive ruling on it. You have to define at what point it becomes a glitch jab. Is it 1 jab? Doubtful most people would call that a kara jab. 2 jabs then? Well even conventional players like Simon and yourself have been known to do 2 of them. 3? 4? 5? at what point is it glitch jabs? You cannot just say glitch jabs are banned and expect people to just know what that means. Until you come up with a definitive ruling of how many is to many you cannot regulate it.
And as I said once you do come up with a definition of how many then people will do everything they can to push the rule to the limit, as I said initially.
Its like campers in call of duty. If 2 minutes is the limit your allowed to camp then they will camp for 1:59, move away for a minute and then camp again for another 1:59. This is no different.

 

[Eternal]

My noob thoughts

I have been playing UMK3 competitively for about 5 months now and at first when I seen moving GJs being done I didnt know what to make of it.. Its something only umk3 has and is a total game changer... But after much thought and some time trying moving GJs I embrace this aspect of the game and am trying to get good at it.. Its not an easy thing to do and doing them does not mean you are invincible...Marv does them all the time yet he is still taking a lot of damage while doing so sometimes..

The way I see it kara jabs/gjs make the fighting deep and more realistic... I think of it like this, the jab or jabs can be used as bait, an attack or an attempt to throw and the tap of the block is a parry(block)...

I'm not a fan of just standing there stationary doing all defense jabs..But I like moving kara jaba/gjs and I think they're fun.

 

[Shock]

The issue I'm talking about is when someone is standing in place, hold down back and block, while spamming jabs, say 3, 4, 5 jabs in a row and all your opponent can do is what for you to stop, or risk a sweep. That's the issue, not advancing forward with Kara jabs.

 

[Dark_Rob]

The issue I'm talking about is when someone is standing in place, hold down back and block, while spamming jabs, say 3, 4, 5 jabs in a row and all your opponent can do is what for you to stop, or risk a sweep. That's the issue, not advancing forward with Kara jabs.

I know, I understand the difference between the all defense/glitch jabs and kara jabs. Im talking about defense jabs. How many? Lets pretend we are at a tournament and youve just told me glitch jabs are banned. The first question I will ask you is "Ok well how many can I do before Ive broken the rule?" If you tell me I cant do it at all then you are telling me I cant ever cancel a jab with block. If you tell me 2 Il point out that ive seen everyone do at least 2 jabs and cancel with block. If you tell me 3 or 4 then I know I can still do 3 or 4 and release block for a second and do another 3 or 4 so I can still abuse them to a degree and I still havent technically broken your rule. See what Im saying now?

 

[Shock]

It's deeper than just the number of jabs you do, it's an on sight based interpretation of what's going on. All I can say is, "It's obvious." By saying "Don't do the glitch jabs" that means don't stand in place while holding a very specific combination of buttons, that you absolutely do not ever need to hold while spamming jabs. If you can resist the temptation of doing that, you won't break this hypothetical rule.

 

[ded]

Glitch jabs are easy to counter. Period. They work in some scenarios but thats it.

The only character who has advantage of it is Kabal and even then there are waaaay to many options to stop it.

Sorry, i dont think it should be banned or that its broken.

 

[Dark_Rob]

It's deeper than just the number of jabs you do, it's an on sight based interpretation of what's going on. All I can say is, "It's obvious." By saying "Don't do the glitch jabs" that means don't stand in place while holding a very specific combination of buttons, that you absolutely do not ever need to hold while spamming jabs. If you can resist the temptation of doing that, you won't break this hypothetical rule.

Interpretation is a gray area bro, One persons intepretation can differ wildy from anothers. Thats why solid rules cannot be up for interpretation. They must be clear as day, black and white.
Lets use the banning of Supermans infinite in MKDC as an example of what I mean. Supermans infinite is done by doing one pro move groundpound after another. It is not escapable except by raging out of it. When the community banned Supermans infinite they didnt just say "Supermans infinite is banned." Because that wouldnt be good enough. They had to DEFINE exactly what that meant. They had to explain what was the most you could do. They did this by saying you can do ONE pro ground pound followed by one normal ground pound, since the normal ground pound is recoverable from, the infinite is broken.

See the difference? There is no interpretation you are told exactly what you can and cant do. The banning of Supermans infinite is a good ban and it was done correctly. A rule that is based on an "onsight interpretation of whats going on" or "its obvious" is not a good ban and cannot be enforced except by interpretation and everyones interpretation can be different.

 

[DanCock]

if its allowed then im going back to being a pad player for WB

if its not let us know ASAP..