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How glitch jabs affect UMK3

Shock

Administrator
Administrator
Founder
O.G.
It's really cut and dry when someone's doing what we're talking about. We'll see what happens at Winter Brawl, for now, our only hope of clearing this up is perhaps a fix for HD.
 

Lucky Day

Kombatant
It's really cut and dry when someone's doing what we're talking about. We'll see what happens at Winter Brawl, for now, our only hope of clearing this up is perhaps a fix for HD.
I believe what you're talking about is stationary glitch jabs which is obviously easy to see (and with the exception of Kabal doesn't serve much purpose IMO).

From what it sounds like people are saying there's a way to glitch jab while moving forward and running, but retaining the block state. That would be really hard to enforce.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Glitch jabs are easy to counter. Period. They work in some scenarios but thats it.

The only character who has advantage of it is Kabal and even then there are waaaay to many options to stop it.

Sorry, i dont think it should be banned or that its broken.
You must have not played against a competent player using these jabs.
 

Tom Brady

Champion
i personally dont see how you can ban it. you would need a rule the clearly states how stationary jabs you can do before you are considered in violation of the rule before you enforce any bans.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
i personally dont see how you can ban it. you would need a rule the clearly states how stationary jabs you can do before you are considered in violation of the rule before you enforce any bans.
From Sirlin about bans:

Enforceable

Sometimes, a tactic can be hard to detect. If you can’t reliably detect something, you certainly can’t enforce penalties on it. In a fighting game, a trick might make a move invulnerable that shouldn’t be, but actually detecting every time the trick is used might be nearly impossible. Or consider a real-time strategy game, where a trick might give your units a few more hit points than normal, but again, detecting this might be nearly impossible in a real game. If something is to be banned from tournament play, it must be reasonably easy to identify when it happens or to prevent it from ever happening at all.

Also in a fighting game, a move might be “unfairly” unblockable, but only when that move is executed in a certain situation with precise 1/60th of a second timing. Did the player execute it during that “unfair” time window? Or 1/60th of a second late? Perhaps he accidentally executed the move at the unfair time through sheer luck. Is he to be penalized? Imagine trying to enforce a rule that states “You may usually use move X, but there’s 1/60th of a second where you may not use move X.”

Discrete

The thing to be banned must be able to be “completely defined.” Imagine that in a fighting game, repeating a certain sequence of five moves over and over is the best tactic in the game. Further suppose that doing so is “taboo” and that players want to ban it. There is no concrete definition of exactly what must be banned. Can players do three repetitions of the five moves? What about two reps? What about one? What about repeating the first four moves and omitting the fifth? Is that okay? The game becomes a test of who is willing to play as closely as possible to the “taboo tactic” without breaking the (arbitrary) letter of the law defining the tactic.

Or in a first-person shooter game, consider the notion of banning “camping” (sitting in one place for too long). No friendly agreement between the players is necessary for the ban, which at least means it’s enforceable. The server can monitor the positions of players, and it knows exactly who breaks the rule and can hand out penalties accordingly. The ban is enforceable, but the problem is being able to completely define camping. If camping is defined as staying within one zone for 3 minutes, and if it really is the best tactic, then sitting in that zone for 2 minutes 59 seconds becomes the best tactic. It’s a slippery slope because there will always exist camping tactics arbitrarily close to the specific kind of camping that is banned.

Here’s an example of a completely defined game element. In the card game Magic: The Gathering, if a particular card is deemed to be too good, then it is possible to ban it. One can define completely that “that card cannot be used.” There is no fear of players still “sort of” using it, in the same way they could still “sort of” repeat the moves from the fighting game, or “sort of” camp for 2 minutes 59 seconds above. The card is a discrete entity that can feasibly be banned.
 

REO

Undead
These are my thoughts on the tactic, I've played tons of different players online who abuse them differently and I just recently started applying it to my game. First off, it does really turn the game into more of a braindead defensive game that relies on chip damage and clock. Only time you will ever see rushing is if someone messes up and gives the other person a chance to get in, that's it. (which will rarely happen if both players got this tactic down on lock) The said "counters" to these tactics are jokes, what are you gonna do? Sweep and projectile them for 1 chip damage all day? All the glitch jabber has to do is get in once which will even out the chip damage in a matter of seconds while you were vulnerable trying to HK / LK / Jump in on them. I've played against people who punish HK, LK, and sweeps on block while glitch jabbing with Kano and Nightwolf. I've played against people who will anti-air you with a special out of glitch jabbing (Kabal, Kung lao, etc.). Only legit counter I've seen so far that seems to work well is Kitana's instant air-fan against non-teleporters. The fact that you can get anyone off the street and place him into this game and show him this tactic which will make any player have to adapt to his game is retarded. It's just way too dominating of a tactic when put into someone's hands that has almost mastered it.
 

NoDoubt

nasty
Im so salty from people doing this online I cant even respond intelligently to this great thread. $#@&*% Def jabs glitch jabs whatever they are called I HATE EM AND THEY STANK!!!!!!!!!!!!

How does marv do it?

Its a strange grey area between being broken and kara jabbing everything.

Seriously though the game is pRo(E)GRESSING.

-Salty McJealous.
That dude who played in the 2v2 that night "put ur name" used them against u and uses them almost like Marvirrasta as well...but not as well as him. I didnt wanna say anything, but I find it sad he had to use them against non-high level players its seriously a joke.

I fought him 1v1 tho after and he quit on me within the 1st match. U glitch him back good enough, he doesnt really have much else. Just an example of someone relying on glitches to win lol


Marvirrasta is excellent and could hold up prob against most players without them, but its become imbedded in his gameplay. On kaillera or during his casuals, he still abuses them but takes more chances and risks moves...allowing you to get an opening, but when hes serious and no longer wants to lose, he'll resort to straight on jabbing (no longer doing any special moves or jumping), unless to counter or punish his opponent. Fighting against this wall of block is virtually impossible without sweeping him over and over...resulting in spin punishment if hes Kabal.

The only option left is glitch jabbin back, standing in place. Both players do this and the match becomes a chip-damage fest. One opponent sweeps, and so does the other. If this happens, both players have an equal shot at winning regardless of what "level" of gameplay they are and usually the round can go on until the timer runs out or close to.

Shocks currently tryin 2 find ways of manipulating the button inputs on Mame to ban this technically for tournament play. Iv been tryin 2 help too idk tho we'll see what the hell happens
 

Dark_Rob

Champion
i personally dont see how you can ban it. you would need a rule the clearly states how stationary jabs you can do before you are considered in violation of the rule before you enforce any bans.
Nor do I. The problem isnt that we CANT ban them technically. We simply have to define how many jabs you can do standing in place while holding block+D/B (lets say 5 for arguments sake). The problem is that the rule itself would be abusable. The obvious next best tactic would be to do 5 glitch jabs, release block for a split second and then do another 5 glitch jabs, technically the rule hasnt been broken. This is why it isnt a realistic way to ban them.

The thing to be banned must be able to be “completely defined.” Imagine that in a fighting game, repeating a certain sequence of five moves over and over is the best tactic in the game. Further suppose that doing so is “taboo” and that players want to ban it. There is no concrete definition of exactly what must be banned. Can players do three repetitions of the five moves? What about two reps? What about one? What about repeating the first four moves and omitting the fifth? Is that okay? The game becomes a test of who is willing to play as closely as possible to the “taboo tactic” without breaking the (arbitrary) letter of the law defining the tactic.

Or in a first-person shooter game, consider the notion of banning “camping” (sitting in one place for too long). No friendly agreement between the players is necessary for the ban, which at least means it’s enforceable. The server can monitor the positions of players, and it knows exactly who breaks the rule and can hand out penalties accordingly. The ban is enforceable, but the problem is being able to completely define camping. If camping is defined as staying within one zone for 3 minutes, and if it really is the best tactic, then sitting in that zone for 2 minutes 59 seconds becomes the best tactic. It’s a slippery slope because there will always exist camping tactics arbitrarily close to the specific kind of camping that is banned.
If no one will listen to me then as Juggs posted, listen to Sirlin. These two things are EXACTLY the reason why we cant really ban them. Especially the first example. It is nearly identical to the situation we are facing.

These are my thoughts on the tactic, I've played tons of different players online who abuse them differently and I just recently started applying it to my game. First off, it does really turn the game into more of a braindead defensive game that relies on chip damage and clock. Only time you will ever see rushing is if someone messes up and gives the other person a chance to get in, that's it. (which will rarely happen if both players got this tactic down on lock) The said "counters" to these tactics are jokes, what are you gonna do? Sweep and projectile them for 1 chip damage all day? All the glitch jabber has to do is get in once which will even out the chip damage in a matter of seconds while you were vulnerable trying to HK / LK / Jump in on them. I've played against people who punish HK, LK, and sweeps on block while glitch jabbing with Kano and Nightwolf. I've played against people who will anti-air you with a special out of glitch jabbing (Kabal, Kung lao, etc.). Only legit counter I've seen so far that seems to work well is Kitana's instant air-fan against non-teleporters. The fact that you can get anyone off the street and place him into this game and show him this tactic which will make any player have to adapt to his game is retarded. It's just way too dominating of a tactic when put into someone's hands that has almost mastered it
This is the Seasons Beatings redemption UMK3 champion saying this!! This is someone who plays at the highest level, who adapts as fast or faster than anyone Ivever seen and HE is saying glitch jabs are to dominant. If there were truly a real way to negate and defeat this tactic dont you think people like REO,Shock and Juggernaut would have found it already??
Reo is only saying what the rest of us are to sad and to loyal to the game to say.
The game is lost. When a game breaks down under high level play it is time to abandon it and seek out one that does not break down.
BRING ON MK9!
 

AC1984

Kaballin!
Its not about being able to counter it or not, its about having fun while playing the game....Most people here agree that its stupid and makes the game boring....Isn't that enough? Running jabs with block is ok for rushdown but standing block punching with Kabal is horrible to deal with....
 

NoDoubt

nasty
The point is glitch jabs cant be "verbally" banned...for obvious reasons countlessly stated here and elsewhere or itll just get abused 2 the next best level. The only resolution is banning them technically by manipulating input games in the mame directories or somehow getting the games netcode lol.

Things like the MOEW cheat.dat and even the juggernaut hack itself prove that this can be a possibility. Manipulating the game to suit certain standards. Its also proven to work since look...now where using it for tournaments so I wouldnt trash the game just yet...
 

REO

Undead
Shogun and I just played a few games with no run and it felt a lot more better. It made characters like Jade and Cyrax better and gave a lot more options to fight against glitch jabbing, like projectiles, sweeps, and things that normally would get punished by run ins. I know this seems absurd by getting rid of something as important and unique that made UMK3 what it is, but it's just another option to think about.
 

AC1984

Kaballin!
Its absurd but I have to agree that is sounds like an interesting option and idea. We gotta find the guy who made the juggernaut hack and ask him to mess around with the data.
 

NoDoubt

nasty
U guys als gotta think about it...if anyone quits its almost like saying Mr. Bass has won afterall and done his job ruining the community. We cant let players like this terminate everything thats been supporting this scene since shock started running tournaments. Theres always a way. I just dont wanna see this game die off after mk9
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
Shogun and I just played a few games with no run and it felt a lot more better. It made characters like Jade and Cyrax better and gave a lot more options to fight against glitch jabbing, like projectiles, sweeps, and things that normally would get punished by run ins. I know this seems absurd by getting rid of something as important and unique that made UMK3 what it is, but it's just another option to think about.
That actually sounds interesting as hell...like with the h2h stance-only stuff we did in MKA.
 

DanCock

Cock Master!!
Shogun and I just played a few games with no run and it felt a lot more better. It made characters like Jade and Cyrax better and gave a lot more options to fight against glitch jabbing, like projectiles, sweeps, and things that normally would get punished by run ins. I know this seems absurd by getting rid of something as important and unique that made UMK3 what it is, but it's just another option to think about.
i suggested this last night, they all scoffed at me.. its in mk2 but its not as bad because of no run pressure on top of it.
 

9.95

Champion
right now, the only possible solution is either to fix the game via hack, or to "Soft Ban" the technique... Soft Banning means its not banned, but SEVERELY frowned upon... basically to the point of shaming and humiliating the person who breaks the "honor code" of not using the technique.

This is how they handle Akuma in Japan in Super Turbo. He's not banned, but so frowned upon that people simply do not pick him because of the honor code. How many people would do this, I don't know...
 

AC1984

Kaballin!
NoDoubt, Its so F-ing simple man...we have to ban it! Do more than 4 jabs midscreen and you're out, star jabs in the corner while someone is still standing and you're out...do a relauncher and you're out....Other wise, this game will probably die with MK9....or at least offline....I would also point out to Rob something-dude...people who know the glitch fest will know exactly what is meant by saying "this shit is banned, play without it, or hit the road." There will be some cheap players who might try to push the boundaries and stuff but they wont last long at all. When is read that Phil is actually out of UMK3 for tourneys, it made me very very sad. If we dont step and put some limitations soon....well NoDoubt said it perfectly!
 

Lucky Day

Kombatant
right now, the only possible solution is either to fix the game via hack, or to "Soft Ban" the technique... Soft Banning means its not banned, but SEVERELY frowned upon... basically to the point of shaming and humiliating the person who breaks the "honor code" of not using the technique.

This is how they handle Akuma in Japan in Super Turbo. He's not banned, but so frowned upon that people simply do not pick him because of the honor code. How many people would do this, I don't know...
Akuma is banned. O. Sagat is frowned upon. But I see your point.

The difference here is that the choice is black/white from the character screen in ST. In this, it's left up to interpretation whether a person is using it for winning.

Fix is the only way.
 

9.95

Champion
you can't ban Kabal and consider that a fix. It becomes a slippery slope... first you ban Kabal... then people will complain about H.Smoke with glitch jabs... well... H.Smoke is a male ninja... so you ban H.Smoke and you also ban Reptile, Scorpion, Ermac, and C.Sub. Then what about the girls? They have great jabs... ban them too once the male ninjas are gone? What we wind up with is a lot of jabs but no characters to use.