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HoneyBee vs SonicFox *WBEarlyAccess MK11 Gameplay*

mastermalone

mastermalone

Use only logic, please
Here's my take on this new MK. It was built with esports competition in mind from the ground up. When I watch this game, I get street fighter vibes. For me, that's a good thing. Street fighter games rely less on gimicks and more of fundamentals/execution, match up knowledge and strategy. You have to out think your opponent using your tools.

The previous MK revolved around stealing your turn back at the highest levels of play. It was fast and fun to watch but, from competitive standpoint, it loses its luster after a while. I know that many of us are not looking to "go pro" at any point but having a game that has legs in the eyes of the the FGC has proven time and time again to be very valuable to fighting game developers from a longevity perspective.

Has anyone wondered why Tekken and Street Fighter remain EVO mainstays? It's because of their solid mechanics and pacing. Matches never boil down to armored moves with plus frames stealing turns for the win.

Granted, not every iteration of these games remained popular with their respective fan bases. For example, SF3 lost most of the core SF fans. Though it gained popularity with 3rd Strike, it wasn't until SF4 that SF became popular with the core fans again. But, SF3 did bring in a new generation of fans that gladly joined the core SF fans in SF4.

My suspicion is that NRS wants to find that balance between the core fan and the esports loving FGC. Some of you might find that MK:11 is not your game and that's totally fine. You may choose to pass on it, much like SF3 was passed up because it was so drastically different than SF2 Turbo/Alpha 2/3. However, from what I've seen, the less emphasis on lengthy juggles and and armored, turn stealing moves and more on footsies and solid whiff punishing options/combos and strategy is good.

I could be wrong but from the looks of it this game will appeal to the lab monsters, the gore fiends, story buffs and the traditional fighting game players. Combo junkies may want to sit this out or, be willing to try out a more traditional type of fighting game experience. From where I'm sitting, looks like NRS/WB stock prices are looking good come late April.

Remember, the casuals who love the gore/fatalities will buy this game whether or not there are 2 hit combos or 236 hit combos. They will make up the majority of the sales of this game. The rest if this game if solid, will be the esports players who will supply this game with longevity.
 
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kevkopdx

kevkopdx

Kombatant
Cashual said:
You have the option to make krushing blows only trigger with a specific button press. Meaning you not only have to meet the conditions, but then you have to hit the right input as well. So they won’t be happening randomly, it’ll happen much like conforming a special into a MB.

I don’t get how people have such strong and definitive opinions about things when they’ve not actually looked all that deep into it.

In the time it took you to type that you could’ve learned that’s not how they work.
Click to expand...
In the time it took you to type this, if you had read the full 2 page thread, you would see someone else has already pointed this out. So yes, I forgot about that aspect. I’m still not sold on the system and watching the animations has already become redundant and boring in my opinion.
Why everyone is so catty over a casual opinion of an unfinished game is beyond me. Who cares, we’ll see how it plays at launch. But videos like the one in this thread aren’t hyping me up. My opinion, k bye.
 
Juggs

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
mastermalone said:
Here's my take on this new MK. It was built with esports competition in mind from the ground up. When I watch this game, I get street fighter vibes. For me, that's a good thing. Street fighter games rely less on gimicks and more of fundamentals/execution, match up knowledge and strategy. You have to out think your opponent using your tools.

The previous MK revolved around stealing your turn back at the highest levels of play. It was fast and fun to watch but, from competitive standpoint, it loses its luster after a while. I know that many of us are not looking to "go pro" at any point but having a game that has legs in the eyes of the the FGC has proven time and time again to be very valuable to fighting game developers from a longevity perspective.

Has anyone wondered why Tekken and Street Fighter remain EVO mainstays? It's because of their solid mechanics and pacing. Matches never boil down to armored moves with plus frames stealing turns for the win.

Granted, not every iteration of these games remained popular with their respective fan bases. For example, SF3 lost most of the core SF fans. Though it gained popularity with 3rd Strike, it wasn't until SF4 that SF became popular with the core fans again. But, SF3 did bring in a new generation of fans that gladly joined the core SF fans in SF4.

My suspicion is that NRS wants to find that balance between the core fan and the esports loving FGC. Some of you might find that MK:11 is not your game and that's totally fine. You may choose to pass on it, much like SF3 was passed up because it was so drastically different than SF2 Turbo/Alpha 2/3. However, from what I've seen, the less emphasis on lengthy juggles and and armored, turn stealing moves and more on footsies and solid whiff punishing options/combos and strategy.

I could be wrong but from the looks of it this game will appeal to the lab monsters, the gore fiends, story buffs and the traditional fighting game players. Combo junkies may want to sit this out or, be willing to try out a more traditional type of fighting game experience. From where I'm sitting, looks like NRS/WB stock prices are looking good come late April.

Remember, the casuals who love the gore/fatalities will buy this game whether or not there are 2 hit combos or 236 hit combos. They will make up the majority of the sales of this game. The rest if this game if solid, will be the esports players who will supply this game with longevity.
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Yeah that’s why, as a long time gamer and FG player, I’m loving everything I’ve seen from MK11. There’s more focus on fundamentals, zoning, footsies, etc. As oppose to getting in extremely easy and then making each other guess the entire game. I will take zoning 100% of the time over the 50/50 guessing game meta where it’s stupidly easy to “get in” to start the 50/50’s.

Anyway, everyone who’s salty about zoning can just pick anti zoners, like Jade.
 
Gamer68

Gamer68

Fujin!
I think MK leaning more towards SF is a good thing, and it's personally what I wanted after MKX. There are only so many mix-ups you can take before things aren't "hype" anymore. And yes, a more neutral heavy meta will be good for competitive play.

I do have a few problems though:
  1. Just because it's more like SF doesn't mean it will be treated that way. At the end of the day, NRS is NRS. Chances are like 2 years after MK11 is out, Injustice 3 will already be a thing. It's hard to excited for changes that will help competitive play long term when a lot of the community will probably drop the game for Injustice 3. I only say that because I KNOW that's what most players will do. Not to say that we can't keep playing the game just because a new one is out, but you gotta know NRS is going to prioritize Injustice 3 when it comes to eSports/Money, so a lot of the big competitive players are going to jump ship so they can get those big bucks. Other players will feel like learning MK11 will be useless because "the newer, bigger game is out". It sucks, but that's the NRS life-cycle so far and I don't see why it's going to change.
  2. Even though it's leaning towards SF, it's still not completely there yet. Projectiles still do not clash for some reason, so it wouldn't surprise me if some of the high level matches become projectile trading races like other NRS titles. I hate to say it, but it is not fun to watch at all, especially if it's going to be up against SF and other FG titles at events that DO have clashes. If casual spectators are going to have to watch a neutral heavy game w/ zoning, MK11 will probably just end up looking janky in comparison to other games being played. I would love to be wrong, but I don't think so. I see some people say that MK11 could still SF players away from SFV, but I doubt it for the reasons I mentioned. Plus it's an MK game, which leads me to my third point:
  3. Mortal Kombat will always been seen as Mortal Kombat, and that's both a good thing and a bad thing. I think when people approach MK games, they just want to have fun with them and do a lot of fun/cheesy stuff. But at a competitive eSports level, most of the FGC doesn't seem to take it seriously and I don't think MK11 will be an exception. Lately I keep seeing the term that MK is "always loony toons", so it kinda goes to show that the same mindset is here with this game.
In conclusion I think Mortal Kombat 11 will be a fun game, and it will have an active eSports scene for about 2 years. High-level matches will be more fun to watch as players figure out and learn the mechanics better. However, it still won't be taken completely seriously, but that's okay because we will be having fun playing the game while everyone else is complaining.

Beyond those 2 years, if we really want MK11 to stay in the FGC scene, then we are going to have to push the game hard and really stick with it. If this is the type of game that we really want from NRS in the future, then we need to make sure they know it. Otherwise the NRS life-cycle will continue.
 
aldazo

aldazo

Waiting for Havik
I see some people praising the similiarities between SF and MK11 footsies, but to me SF4 was very slow, and footsies were way too heavy and one dimensional. Now MK11 feels a little too focused on footsies and slow paced; on contrary MKX felt way too focused on rush down long combos and fast paced. In my opinion MK9 had the correct and best balance between pace, combos and footsies. I really hope gameplay wise MK11 will be more similar to MK9 than SF.
 
mastermalone

mastermalone

Use only logic, please
PLAYING TO WIN said:
It is what it is but I can’t stand watching these not knowing what specials will be unusable in tournament play
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I agree. They keep showing us the custom variation system. Now, if they want to make this sort of like a "choose your super art/V trigger" system like the SF series, only you choose your moves then they should say it already. I'm fine with it if they do. They have already shown us that each move costs a certain amount of slots based on how powerful they are. Choosing a loadout from a sub menu of moves during character select should be fast and simple enough.

I think they should just roll with that. The moves can be balanced via the point system and tweaks. So there is no real reason that someone could create something too OP. Learning the match ups will involve learning what each move does for that character. There will probably be about 6 moves to select from for each character with a max of 3 points to use.

The variations that they create will probably boil down to one really good one anyway. MKX was proof of that. Again, I could be wrong about this.
 
MKF30

MKF30

Fujin and Ermac for MK 11
Honestly the more I watch MK 11 vids in general, the more I see some past MK games with the pacing(of old) influence as well as cues from SF and Injustice, not exactly but some similar aspects for sure. I like how they brought back the variation system as it'll be better than MK X's and I2's, as this time we have more freedom to mix and match with the moves unlocked from the start which imo is a good thing. I welcome more zoning, footsies, tactically elements and slower pacing vs. let's just run and do 50/50's. As for combos, I'm a firm believer that some of the best fighting games aren't even about big, fancy combos. It's eye candy, there's more than one way to play fighting games without big combos.
 
Killusion

Killusion

Stream addict
Gameplay looks great to me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Only thing I'm not 100% on board with is the Crushing Blow damage. Some of them seem to deal WAY too much damage, but those are probably not final so we'll see.
 
Zhidoreptiloid

Zhidoreptiloid

Watcher from the sky
@kevkopdx
Why people complain about short combos and called them boring? The long combos are boring, when you see same long patterns again and again, again and again, long combos is like you watch X-ray in 9999999 in a row, like you watch same fatality again and again after 2 years of game release and you just count the time.
What argue for "short combos is boring"? In long term no any argue for that, if You wanna play mk11 only one month and then you drop the game, i can understand you, but if you wanna play more than 1 month, you must want more short repetitive things, like combo (short combo > long combo), finishers (brutality > fatality) etc.
 
kevkopdx

kevkopdx

Kombatant
Zhidoreptiloid said:
@kevkopdx
Why people complain about short combos and called them boring? The long combos are boring, when you see same long patterns again and again, again and again, long combos is like you watch X-ray in 9999999 in a row, like you watch same fatality again and again after 2 years of game release and you just count the time.
What argue for "short combos is boring"? In long term no any argue for that, if You wanna play mk11 only one month and then you drop the game, i can understand you, but if you wanna play more than 1 month, you must want more short repetitive things, like combo (short combo > long combo), finishers (brutality > fatality) etc.
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Ok well that’s your opinion. All of NRS’ newer games have had this format. It’s a major change to their franchise. Do you really expect everyone to automatically like it? It’s not going to stop me from playing the game, it’s simply a preference. I’m not here advocating for NRS to change anything. You like short combos, I don’t. I’m hoping I will still enjoy the game like I have with every game they’ve put out since MK9. If not, life goes on.
 
Zhidoreptiloid

Zhidoreptiloid

Watcher from the sky
@kevkopdx
Before this year, i play only NRS games - MK, injustice. And when no announcement of mk11 on e3 i started to watch new fighting to play - and the choise fell on soul calibur 6, i never play SC series before and for me was very strange, that combo is so short - starter -> ender. For example, my main Groh have unversal starter 3b (d+f 3), that lead to 3 different combo enders. But later, i realized, that is greatest way to make combo system.
What is combo structure? You have a starter, that initiate the fight, that is main thing in a combo, you have combo-ender, which can leads to different proprties (knockdown, restand, vortex, reset, damage, ringout etc.) and you can add combo-extender to do more damage. That is all. No more needed.
How looks combos in NRS games? Starter -> comboextender -> comboextender -> comboextender -> comboextender -> comboextender -> comboender. What is purpose of these all comboextenders? It's like X-ray, when you press the button (combostarter) and you watch boring 30-sec movie in 9999999 in a raw (comboextender -> comboextender ->comboextender -> comboextender ->comboextender -> comboextender).
 
darthbrooks

darthbrooks

Noob
It's not like fundamentals and fluid gameplay are diametrically opposite. SF and Tekken manage to maintain both without looking like stiff action figures duking it out. I'll probably love MK11 despite the animations and postures being hot garbage though, so whatever. Definitely warming up to the old school tempo of it.
 
superbn0va

superbn0va

Apprentice
Game is plain simple boring to watch sofar. It's beta state, but the game is not gonna change alot if it's going to be released in a few months.

Idc for a run button. MK9 didnt had a run button and the game was fine in terms of speed and mobility.

It looks like NRS is adding alot of recovery on movement and attacks to balance the game. I hope im wrong on this, and that the gameplay ends up fast and mobile instead.

At this point i need to play the game first to be convinced. Let's wait and see..
 
LaidbackOne

LaidbackOne

Scrubby nice guy
To be honest though, this gameplay is beyond boring and I'm all in when it comes to a slower, more methodical and less rushdown heavy game than MKX.
Washed up warrios / K&M videos are super cool so I'm not worried at all.
 
Metin

Metin

Ermac & Smoke Main
HeavyNorse said:
As people get more hands-on time with the game and start to figure things out, the gameplay will usually reflect that and become more interesting to look at as well.
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MKX nothing more than 50/50's.. Some armored moves were stronger than others, some characters has an advantage to build meter faster, and that is all about MKX. These are things that what pro players said about the game before. They were right about it a little bit but now it is time to face the new gameplay mechanics and i am happy about it because i don't want to play the same game over and over again. Also i think the new gameplay is not bad as much as some players said. I don't mean MKX was a bad game, i love the game a lot but i still think MK9 is much better than MKX but it is not only about gameplay. Story, roster, stages etc.. these are the other things that i consider when i want to make a comparsion.
 
superbn0va

superbn0va

Apprentice
LaidbackOne said:
To be honest though, this gameplay is beyond boring and I'm all in when it comes to a slower, more methodical and less rushdown heavy game than MKX.
Washed up warrios / K&M videos are super cool so I'm not worried at all.
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Slow doesn't equal methodical perse. My concerns are restrictions and immobility.

They take away alot of creative options that players have. it's a good thing to make the game more based on footsies. But atleast make the game mobile enough to make the footsies worth it. Hella recovery isnt making the footsies fun or usefull - strategic.

SF has good footsies bc you have fast pokes, jumps dashes etc. it's the total picture. Not a mechanic that works on it's own.

Projectiles don't clash, mobility is cursed by recovery. This might results in zoning heavy gameplay. My guess is, if so eventually, NRS properly gonna nerf zoning. Taking risks that zoning ends up weaker compared to close up characters/variations. End of the road, its not making the game more balanced or fun.
 
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