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For Honor

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
I.have.seen.it.

:p

In all seriousness, I have. If you only judge it by 1v1 standards, you're missing key elements...

Without blockstun, what is punishable is very different.

Spacing is more important by angles, appropriate reactions, and appropriate approaches and retreats than distance.

Stretching defenses and defending is about decisions over implementation.

Health and stamina aren't the only meters you must be aware of. Revenge Meters are just as important.

Not only are zones, but also choke points very important to be aware of.

Matchups change by group, not just character.

Team synergy is only secondary to skill. Holding zones, but moving to let teammates heal is importsnt. Coordinating attacks strategically and within the moment to stagger strings and stay on the offensive are even more important. Even more important than that is holding back to create and avoid traps.

Overall awareness of what works together and what whiffs is often the difference between victory and defeat.
Was is a tournament? Was it an organized event to get 8 players to play together? If not, then it's just pubstomping and has no meaning. All of those things can be made trivial if there's something gamebreaking at the highest level. Just like how offense in non-top tiers is trivial in duels
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
Was is a tournament? Was it an organized event to get 8 players to play together? If not, then it's just pubstomping and has no meaning. All of those things can be made trivial if there's something gamebreaking at the highest level. Just like how offense in non-top tiers is trivial in duels
I've seen it. It was two high level teams. iSkys team which was him, Sypher, King Richard and someone else vs cuteanimegirl and his team. They played a few matches of dom, and they were working as a team with call outs and strategy. It was great.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
Was is a tournament? Was it an organized event to get 8 players to play together? If not, then it's just pubstomping and has no meaning. All of those things can be made trivial if there's something gamebreaking at the highest level. Just like how offense in non-top tiers is trivial in duels
I've seen it. It was two high level teams. iSkys team which was him, Sypher, King Richard and someone else vs cuteanimegirl and his team. They played a few matches of dom, and they were working as a team with call outs and strategy. It was great.
:p

In all seriousness though, it doesn't have to be in a tournament to feature high level play. That idea is a misnomer.
 

Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
:p

In all seriousness though, it doesn't have to be in a tournament to feature high level play. That idea is a misnomer.
No it doesn't. But tournaments are an environment where people are inclined to play seriously in order to win. Otherwise you can't tell what actually works vs what doesn't if someone isn't trying to play seriously
 
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The lag is ridiculous in this game, if you are laggy you are guarenteed a win unless you are playing as raider or shugoki.

This should not fucking exist

second attack was literally 10 frames
 
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GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
No it doesn't. But tournaments are an environment where people are inclined to play seriously in order to win. Otherwise you can't tell what actually works vs what doesn't if someone isn't trying to play seriously
The game is almost brand new. This equates to 2 things...

One, there is no truly high level play yet. The game hasn't been out long enough to achieve the meta yet. The best players will achieve the meta, but I don't think we are there yet. The idea that only dueling matters solidifies this point for me. If 2D fighters are Pac Man, 4H is Donkey Kong.

Two, this being a new genre means the best players generally don't sandbag. No one knows enough to really do that yet. In addition, the excitement is fresh - so even when there are no chips on the line, players show what they know - which even among successful players - isn't that much when compared to what they will know if we get another installment - or if this game survives a long time.
 

Nexallus

From Takeda to Robin
I play all the game modes and all the characters (rep 2 with every character).

My analysis:
One problem I have in 4v4 is hero stacking. Having a team with all assassin's vs a mixed team with 1 of each type is usually a one sided match. It would be nice if we could have a game mode with a 1 hero limit (similar to Overwatch) and without gear stats.

Revenge can be dealt with if the team knows how to play around it, although obtaining revenge should only happen when outnumbered (which happens in 1v1 fights unfortunately).
 

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
The future of the game lies in dueling, unless Dominion and some core game mechanics, get an overhaul.

So, Dominion is the most popular mode as we well know, but that's because it's a casual player shit show. Most players are terrified of 1v1 in a straight up fight. Dominion let's them dominate lesser geared folks, blame losses on greater geared folks and be carried along by their team - again, where when they lose they have people to point at and blame and win they win they can assume personal responsibility for that win.

The problem here is two-fold. One, these players get to rep whatever and start to get bored, so they wander into the dueling modes and get completely and utterly annihilated because they genuinely don't understand the game. This isn't conducive to converting most players to a more competitive/serious mindset. Sure, a few will say 'fuck these guys im going to learn this and come back and rofl stomp them' but most are going to scream and cry ineffectual, barely post/current pubescent tears into their couch while yelling about balance or cheating or whatever. When someone waltz's in with an ego from 120hrs on Dominion and gets just monkeystomped, they will turn tail and ho back to their mode of choice. Which leads to problem number two: Boredom. Dominion is almost never played with any kind of strategy beyond maybe 'stick together' and eventually people will get tired of that. Especially as the gear divide minimizes and players have fewer matches where are demigods compared to much lesser geared individuals. Even if it DIDNT, most people will burn out on meaningless Dominion play eventually. Gear balancing is also going to increase the attrition rate, because you grind and grind for that one Hat of Gooder Punchkicking that lets you one shot the guys who dont have Chests of Stopping Gooder Punchkicking, but all of a sudden, you dont one shot them. Your Punchkicking is still gooder, but its not as gooder. The carrot isnt as big and even when you do get it, it has less shelf life because the rewards are less ridiculous.

Mechanically the game just doesn't lend itself to group fighting.. I can - and have numerous times - been working on my opponent, only to get knocked out of my own rhythm by a Raider, spinning around like some lunatic, mongoloid ballerina, screaming CREAM FOR MOLDY PIZZA, and interrupting not only the enemy, but his teammates as well. The lock on system doesn't allow for terribly detailed movement in a group setting either which makes coordinating attacks extremely difficult. Moving around and getting close enough to take advantage of a knock down from such and such a move, or getting far enough to not get decked by the Raider's PIZZA attack, or any number of similar, wide-berth aoe type stuff. Essentially in a group fight setting characters are stripped of multiple tools and kind of rendered down to a few moves that don't interrupt, or get interrupted, by teammates. Hell, doesnt Valk sweep knock down teammates too?

Now, I understand that Dominion and such isnt about just team fighting. There is obviously some strategy to holding capture points and the movement and theory behind the best way to do that, etc etc, but if that's your primary goal, there are a hundred other games that do that better. FH is unique and interesting because of its combat and how precise and intricate it *can* be under the right circumstances.. but its inbuilt mechanics work directly against large team fighting.

There is def skill there, of course, but its the more generic skill inherent to any game with a point capture type mode. I mean, you are taking this really interesting set of systems and how they interact with each other on each character and boiling it down to a LB and 4 Wardens as a team comp. LB does his over the shoulder grab and the Wardens all spam top heavies, cause that doesn't interrupt anyone elses moves.. And thats assuming your guys can get in to anything resembling the correct position when the LB chucks the guy.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
The future of the game lies in dueling, unless Dominion and some core game mechanics, get an overhaul.

So, Dominion is the most popular mode as we well know, but that's because it's a casual player shit show. Most players are terrified of 1v1 in a straight up fight. Dominion let's them dominate lesser geared folks, blame losses on greater geared folks and be carried along by their team - again, where when they lose they have people to point at and blame and win they win they can assume personal responsibility for that win.

The problem here is two-fold. One, these players get to rep whatever and start to get bored, so they wander into the dueling modes and get completely and utterly annihilated because they genuinely don't understand the game. This isn't conducive to converting most players to a more competitive/serious mindset. Sure, a few will say 'fuck these guys im going to learn this and come back and rofl stomp them' but most are going to scream and cry ineffectual, barely post/current pubescent tears into their couch while yelling about balance or cheating or whatever. When someone waltz's in with an ego from 120hrs on Dominion and gets just monkeystomped, they will turn tail and ho back to their mode of choice. Which leads to problem number two: Boredom. Dominion is almost never played with any kind of strategy beyond maybe 'stick together' and eventually people will get tired of that. Especially as the gear divide minimizes and players have fewer matches where are demigods compared to much lesser geared individuals. Even if it DIDNT, most people will burn out on meaningless Dominion play eventually. Gear balancing is also going to increase the attrition rate, because you grind and grind for that one Hat of Gooder Punchkicking that lets you one shot the guys who dont have Chests of Stopping Gooder Punchkicking, but all of a sudden, you dont one shot them. Your Punchkicking is still gooder, but its not as gooder. The carrot isnt as big and even when you do get it, it has less shelf life because the rewards are less ridiculous.

Mechanically the game just doesn't lend itself to group fighting.. I can - and have numerous times - been working on my opponent, only to get knocked out of my own rhythm by a Raider, spinning around like some lunatic, mongoloid ballerina, screaming CREAM FOR MOLDY PIZZA, and interrupting not only the enemy, but his teammates as well. The lock on system doesn't allow for terribly detailed movement in a group setting either which makes coordinating attacks extremely difficult. Moving around and getting close enough to take advantage of a knock down from such and such a move, or getting far enough to not get decked by the Raider's PIZZA attack, or any number of similar, wide-berth aoe type stuff. Essentially in a group fight setting characters are stripped of multiple tools and kind of rendered down to a few moves that don't interrupt, or get interrupted, by teammates. Hell, doesnt Valk sweep knock down teammates too?

Now, I understand that Dominion and such isnt about just team fighting. There is obviously some strategy to holding capture points and the movement and theory behind the best way to do that, etc etc, but if that's your primary goal, there are a hundred other games that do that better. FH is unique and interesting because of its combat and how precise and intricate it *can* be under the right circumstances.. but its inbuilt mechanics work directly against large team fighting.

There is def skill there, of course, but its the more generic skill inherent to any game with a point capture type mode. I mean, you are taking this really interesting set of systems and how they interact with each other on each character and boiling it down to a LB and 4 Wardens as a team comp. LB does his over the shoulder grab and the Wardens all spam top heavies, cause that doesn't interrupt anyone elses moves.. And thats assuming your guys can get in to anything resembling the correct position when the LB chucks the guy.
This game isn't just a fighting game. Its a MOBA with fighting game elements.

Dueling, for me, win or lose is boring. I don't blame anything when I lose. I give my opponent props and move on. When I win though, I feel no euphoria. When I win in Dominion, I do though.

Dueling skills transfer to Dominion better than Dominion skills transfer to dueling, but awareness is much more important in Dominion than in dueling. Dominion calls upon a different set of skills.

If you complain about gear, thats your ego talking. Without it, you will lose exchanges you would have won - but it only takes a day and a half to two days of dedicated play to get there and its so much fun once you do - so stop whining, bite the bullet, and get there.

Fighting game players are used to grinding skills and actual experience, not experience points.

Just to add, today I died to a hazard after being surrounded and outnumbered with hazards on either side (Overwatch). I teched 4 guard breaks before falling in after being nudged by a running Shugoki. It wasn't bs because it was my own stupidity that put me in that position to begin with. I was being impatient and lacked battle awareness. Once I was there, I did all I could - but I shouldn't have been there in the 1st place.
 
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Baconlord

Proud follower of the church of Cetrion
Three biggest reason why 4v4 modes are not the future is because they are a pain in the ass to stream a tournament without a spectator mode
 
Reactions: GAV

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
The future of the game lies in dueling, unless Dominion and some core game mechanics, get an overhaul.

So, Dominion is the most popular mode as we well know, but that's because it's a casual player shit show. Most players are terrified of 1v1 in a straight up fight. Dominion let's them dominate lesser geared folks, blame losses on greater geared folks and be carried along by their team - again, where when they lose they have people to point at and blame and win they win they can assume personal responsibility for that win.

The problem here is two-fold. One, these players get to rep whatever and start to get bored, so they wander into the dueling modes and get completely and utterly annihilated because they genuinely don't understand the game. This isn't conducive to converting most players to a more competitive/serious mindset. Sure, a few will say 'fuck these guys im going to learn this and come back and rofl stomp them' but most are going to scream and cry ineffectual, barely post/current pubescent tears into their couch while yelling about balance or cheating or whatever. When someone waltz's in with an ego from 120hrs on Dominion and gets just monkeystomped, they will turn tail and ho back to their mode of choice. Which leads to problem number two: Boredom. Dominion is almost never played with any kind of strategy beyond maybe 'stick together' and eventually people will get tired of that. Especially as the gear divide minimizes and players have fewer matches where are demigods compared to much lesser geared individuals. Even if it DIDNT, most people will burn out on meaningless Dominion play eventually. Gear balancing is also going to increase the attrition rate, because you grind and grind for that one Hat of Gooder Punchkicking that lets you one shot the guys who dont have Chests of Stopping Gooder Punchkicking, but all of a sudden, you dont one shot them. Your Punchkicking is still gooder, but its not as gooder. The carrot isnt as big and even when you do get it, it has less shelf life because the rewards are less ridiculous.

Mechanically the game just doesn't lend itself to group fighting.. I can - and have numerous times - been working on my opponent, only to get knocked out of my own rhythm by a Raider, spinning around like some lunatic, mongoloid ballerina, screaming CREAM FOR MOLDY PIZZA, and interrupting not only the enemy, but his teammates as well. The lock on system doesn't allow for terribly detailed movement in a group setting either which makes coordinating attacks extremely difficult. Moving around and getting close enough to take advantage of a knock down from such and such a move, or getting far enough to not get decked by the Raider's PIZZA attack, or any number of similar, wide-berth aoe type stuff. Essentially in a group fight setting characters are stripped of multiple tools and kind of rendered down to a few moves that don't interrupt, or get interrupted, by teammates. Hell, doesnt Valk sweep knock down teammates too?

Now, I understand that Dominion and such isnt about just team fighting. There is obviously some strategy to holding capture points and the movement and theory behind the best way to do that, etc etc, but if that's your primary goal, there are a hundred other games that do that better. FH is unique and interesting because of its combat and how precise and intricate it *can* be under the right circumstances.. but its inbuilt mechanics work directly against large team fighting.

There is def skill there, of course, but its the more generic skill inherent to any game with a point capture type mode. I mean, you are taking this really interesting set of systems and how they interact with each other on each character and boiling it down to a LB and 4 Wardens as a team comp. LB does his over the shoulder grab and the Wardens all spam top heavies, cause that doesn't interrupt anyone elses moves.. And thats assuming your guys can get in to anything resembling the correct position when the LB chucks the guy.
I mean, I'm sure in competitive Dom mode you won't be able to stack heros, same thing happened with Overwatch. Right now you can't base hardly anything at all on the matchmaking. Not only is it horrible connection wise, finding a variety of opponents, horrible gear stat matching, and there's no ranked/competitive mode.

Unless the maps change, or something big in the meta changes, the game modes like Dom will really only be legitimate for competitive play. Expect to see players with an actual high level tournament mindset, like SonicFox, to abuse the runaway and defensive play, and eventually turn the duels into boring tag matches. I can almost guarantee you that's what will happen in the more serious 1v1 tournaments that don't have self imposed rules against it.
 
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Gesture Required Ahead

Get on that hook
The game is almost brand new. This equates to 2 things...

One, there is no truly high level play yet. The game hasn't been out long enough to achieve the meta yet. The best players will achieve the meta, but I don't think we are there yet. The idea that only dueling matters solidifies this point for me. If 2D fighters are Pac Man, 4H is Donkey Kong.

Two, this being a new genre means the best players generally don't sandbag. No one knows enough to really do that yet. In addition, the excitement is fresh - so even when there are no chips on the line, players show what they know - which even among successful players - isn't that much when compared to what they will know if we get another installment - or if this game survives a long time.
  1. What? Then what do you call every tournament that happened so far? AFAIK you and I are no match for the top players in this game. And if there isn't a meta yet then how is it that every top player understands that defense is the best way of playing this game with a few exceptions? Metas are always present it's just that they change when the game changes or when something revolutionary is found. And how does the PacMan DK comparison relate in any way? You're saying that this game is a different genre to 2D Fighters? I'm pretty sure that's obvious already. But there are clearly more than enough Fighting Game mechanics and elements in this game for it to be classified as one. Let's not pretend FH is more similar to Call of Duty, League or StarCraft. Injustice 2 has Gear as well, should we start treating it like World of Warcraft?
  2. How do you know that? There is no way to tell until you see the actual similarities or differences in tournament play vs casual play.
 
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GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
  1. What? Then what do you call every tournament that happened so far? AFAIK you and I are no match for the top players in this game. And if there isn't a meta yet then how is it that every top player understands that defense is the best way of playing this game with a few exceptions? Metas are always present it's just that they change when the game changes or when something revolutionary is found. And how does the PacMan DK comparison relate in any way? You're saying that this game is a different genre to 2D Fighters? I'm pretty sure that's obvious already. But there are clearly more than enough Fighting Game mechanics and elements in this game for it to be classified as one. Let's not pretend FH is more similar to Call of Duty, League or StarCraft. Injustice 2 has Gear as well, should we start treating it like World of Warcraft?
  2. How do you know that? There is no way to tell until you see the actual similarities or differences in tournament play vs casual play.
Good questions...

When SF2 first hit the scene, it was generally believed that Ken was the strongest character. Then, ideas went through a few shifts. Other characters began to emerge. First, it was Guile and Dictator. It was a short consensus that they were OP. Then, it shifted to Sagat and E.Honda. Then, Zangief was the king of salt. Up until this time, Chun Li was thought to be weak - but eventually she was thought to be viable. Eventually, without changes, players came to believe that the game was fairly balanced. 4H, I think, will go through similar progressions.

The comparison seems a stretch, but both games were new in being the first great game in their genre.

This newness also leaves players, even the best ones, as mostly heart. The excitement coupled with the ignorance that comes with a game as new as this keeps even the best players motivated to learn and perform.

If a great player says they feel nothing when they play, I would rethink my position - but I doubt that is the case.
 
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Baconlord

Proud follower of the church of Cetrion
Good questions...

When SF2 first hit the scene, it was generally believed that Ken was the strongest character. Then, ideas went through a few shifts. Other characters began to emerge. First, it was Guile and Dictator. It was a short concensus that they were OP. Then, it shifted to Sagat and E.Honda. Then, Zangief was the king of salt. Up until this time, Chun Li was thought to be weak - but eventually she was thought to be viable. Eventually, without changes, players came to believe that the game was fairly balanced. 4H, I think, will go through similar progressions.

The comparison seems a stretch, but both games were new in being the first great game in their genre.

This newness also leaves players, even the best ones, as mostly heart. The excitement coupled with the ignorance that comes with a game as new as this keeps even the best players motivated to learn and perform.

If a great player says they feel nothing when they play, I would rethink my poeition - but I doubt that is the case.
Meta and tier list are 2 different things
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
Meta and tier list are 2 different things
I get that, but I wasn't good enough in SF2 in the beginning to understand what the early high level meta was. I'm sure there was a shift though because if the tiers shifted without any changes, its a safe assumption that the meta shifted too.
 

EntropicByDesign

It's all so very confusing.
I mean, I'm sure in competitive Dom mode you won't be able to stack heros, same thing happened with Overwatch. Right now you can't base hardly anything at all on the matchmaking. Not only is it horrible connection wise, finding a variety of opponents, horrible gear stat matching, and there's no ranked/competitive mode.

Unless the maps change, or something big in the meta changes, the game modes like Dom will really only be legitimate for competitive play. Expect to see players with an actual high level tournament mindset, like SonicFox, to abuse the runaway and defensive play, and eventually turn the duels into boring tag matches. I can almost guarantee you that's what will happen in the more serious 1v1 tournaments that don't have self imposed rules against it.

I agree with you, but what I mean is more along the lines of 'healthy' competitive play.. there is absolutely the ability to play competitively by super cheesing stuff in Dom and so on, but that isnt the kind of play thats going to foster a healthy tournament environment, which in terms - to me anyway - makes in non-viable for competitive play. If, to make something competitive, you have to essentially 'break' it, then its not gong to be sustainable. Stuff like Smash is an exception because the core gameplay is enhanced by the bugs and bizarre way the game is played, but in the case of FH, the tag style play isnt something want to see. I guess a few people are ok with it, but its absolutely not something the competitive community is going to adopt and accept in a broad sense. I dont think so any way.
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
@EntropicByDesign
1 on 1 is just a part of it.

When someone gets hit by something they didn't see coming in COD or gets ganked in a MOBA, no one bats an eye.

Team strategies and battle awareness are almost as much a part of it as fighting skills.

Like @Baconlord said, what it needs to become viable competitively is an observation mode. It would be best if the entirety of battle could be observed at once, imo. It just needs to retain the immediacy of the exchanges and it can only do that with a moving camera. It can't be a far-away overhead view. It needs to be an action cam. Observers must be hovering ghosts that can't be seen and can't impact the battle, but can move the camera like a player would.
 
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The game is almost brand new. This equates to 2 things...

One, there is no truly high level play yet. The game hasn't been out long enough to achieve the meta yet. The best players will achieve the meta, but I don't think we are there yet. The idea that only dueling matters solidifies this point for me. If 2D fighters are Pac Man, 4H is Donkey Kong.

Two, this being a new genre means the best players generally don't sandbag. No one knows enough to really do that yet. In addition, the excitement is fresh - so even when there are no chips on the line, players show what they know - which even among successful players - isn't that much when compared to what they will know if we get another installment - or if this game survives a long time.
Please for the love of god stop listening to random nobody youtubers and coming over here spreading propaganda. This game is not complicated, there's no hidden tech here there's no hidden play style here this is it. Just because you can't understand this yet doesn't mean everyone can't. The meta is play defensively unless you have a top tier character it's not complicated. If there was a game where literally you just jumped on a box you would defend it saying that we don't understand it yet we need to give it more time. Some things don't take years to understand
 

Nexallus

From Takeda to Robin
There are some really effective team compositions for dominion. For example, you can pair a really slow attacking Shugoki with a really fast attacking Valkyrie (this way Shugoki won't be leg sweeped thanks to armor).

You can do team chains like when the Shugoki knocks an enemy on the ground with any of his moves (demon's embrace, guardbreak heavy), the Valkyrie can pounce on them and sweep chain the grounded enemy. With proper communication and positioning, I can see these two characters take on a whole team.
 
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GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
Please for the love of god stop listening to random nobody youtubers and coming over here spreading propaganda. This game is not complicated, there's no hidden tech here there's no hidden play style here this is it. Just because you can't understand this yet doesn't mean everyone can't. The meta is play defensively unless you have a top tier character it's not complicated. If there was a game where literally you just jumped on a box you would defend it saying that we don't understand it yet we need to give it more time. Some things don't take years to understand
Some things, but clearly you are missing the point. Just because I put up a YT vid doesn't mean I agree.

Uncomplicated question...

Do you even Dominion, bruh?
 
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Some things, but clearly you are missing the point. Just because I put up a YT vid doesn't mean I agree.

Uncomplicated question - Do you play Dominion?
Then why put up the video that agrees with your thoughts right after stating your thoughts?

Yes I have it's a cluster fuck mess that no competitive player would want to play competitively. The real question is have you ever played duels?
 

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
Then why put up the video that agrees with your thoughts right after stating your thoughts?

Yes I have it's a cluster fuck mess that no competitive player would want to play competitively. The real question is have you ever played duels?
Some stuff I agree with and some I don't, but if the video is well done and gives info - I forward it because I'm not trying paint information one way or the other. I just present it and offer my opinion.

Your post illustrates what I'm getting at. Your way of looking at this game is from the perspective of being inundated with 1 on 1 fighting - so you can only see this game from a duelist's perspective - but that isn't all this game is - so I hope the developers take whatever advice on balancing you give them with a grain of salt.

Trashing the balance of Dominion to make it perfect for dueling would be a major mistake.