For Honor

[GAV]

Here's a vid of what the developers pre-empted. The other vid told us, but this one is a little more thorough...

 

[EntropicByDesign]

Goki dominates in 1 on 1 situations because of a bug.

Ehh.. no.

I mean, that helps, but you have a character that you cant make a single mistake against, or at any time, he can hit you with a 75% health swing (counting damage done to you and health gained by him), along with his super armor, he can bully through a hit to land that one move, oh yeah, and that move will KILL YOU IN ONE HIT, if he's low on health, so you can totally dominate him, and still lose in one shot. In addition, if Im not mistaken, he can guarantee that move off a successful GB as well, if he has a wall to throw you in to. He can daze you and keep you completely out of stamina for HUGE amounts of time, he can CHUNK YOU when he does land a clean a hit, which, with his dazes and knockdowns, and no stamina, and the fear you MUST have for his grab during all this.. He also has some of strongest environmental kill potential of any character. This isnt even taking in to account his actual attacks and feints to set shit up, and so on. He has all the 'normal' options most characters have, on top of literally an instant win button.

Goki is better than a lot of people realize and by design, he wins in idiotic and infuriating ways. There is nothing interesting or exciting to fighting a Goki most of the time. It's just terrible design to be able to make 100 right decisions vs an enemy, then make one wrong one and still lose, when that enemy isnt held to the same standard. Even if he is, thats terrible game design. Goki is literally a series of troll tactics and moves rolled in to one character and made in to its own playstyle.

I dont think he's the best character in the game or anything, but after WL and PK get nerfed and if they ever sort Conq's bullshit out, he will almost certainly emerge as the best, and I personally think he's close already (top 3 or so).

 

[ienjoywinning]

Cant wait till the nerf honestly so i can abuse it as a parry option select and no one will complain.

Hopefully people are gonna stop bitching about her now (doubt it)

 

[GAV]

Hopefully people are gonna stop bitching about her now (doubt it)

 

[GAV]

Ehh.. no.

I mean, that helps, but you have a character that you cant make a single mistake against, or at any time, he can hit you with a 75% health swing (counting damage done to you and health gained by him), along with his super armor, he can bully through a hit to land that one move, oh yeah, and that move will KILL YOU IN ONE HIT, if he's low on health, so you can totally dominate him, and still lose in one shot. In addition, if Im not mistaken, he can guarantee that move off a successful GB as well, if he has a wall to throw you in to. He can daze you and keep you completely out of stamina for HUGE amounts of time, he can CHUNK YOU when he does land a clean a hit, which, with his dazes and knockdowns, and no stamina, and the fear you MUST have for his grab during all this.. He also has some of strongest environmental kill potential of any character. This isnt even taking in to account his actual attacks and feints to set shit up, and so on. He has all the 'normal' options most characters have, on top of literally an instant win button.

Goki is better than a lot of people realize and by design, he wins in idiotic and infuriating ways. There is nothing interesting or exciting to fighting a Goki most of the time. It's just terrible design to be able to make 100 right decisions vs an enemy, then make one wrong one and still lose, when that enemy isnt held to the same standard. Even if he is, thats terrible game design. Goki is literally a series of troll tactics and moves rolled in to one character and made in to its own playstyle.

I dont think he's the best character in the game or anything, but after WL and PK get nerfed and if they ever sort Conq's bullshit out, he will almost certainly emerge as the best, and I personally think he's close already (top 3 or so).

I agree about the grab. They should try to tone down its effectiveness in some way, but I would be careful about doing anything further to hurt the character. I don't want him ruined and I think that could easily happen if they go too heavy-handed with nerfs. The instakill has to go though. Remove his armor on it and the instakill and he's good once they fix the untargetting bug.

 

[GAV]

Casual players may not recognize, but this translates to 4H...

Implementing soft into the hard to make things easier...

 

[Basic Stupidity]

Hopefully people are gonna stop bitching about her now (doubt it)

definitely not...
Unfortunately, there will always be shitters that cant react in 350ms and so theyll complain that her lights are too op.
Also, there will always be shitters that are so laggy that they spam their guard and do random lights and get away with it because of how laggy they're.

They seriously need to consider either dedicated servers, or a real ping system where you can accept or deny your opponent based on connection.

 

[freerf245]

I just played the game for the first time in a month. Warlord still dumb, peacekeeper still dumb, and gear is still dumb. See you guys when the game is fixed.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

The biggest complainers don't understand roles. Dueling is like 1 on 1 basketball. To me, its boring - but furthermore, its missing some key elements to the game. Classes fulfill specific roles. Lawbringers win team fights. Gokis win team fights to a lesser extent, but they can hold their own better 1 on 1. Shield classes are tough to gank. Assassins are hit and run specialists. Kenseis, Wardens, and Raiders are jack of all, master of none - that lean toward one role.

With Rage Gain, just fix the glitch. Right now, Revenge Gain by Injury gives gain for blocking making both Gain by Blocking and Gain by Injury stack whenever an attack gets blocked. Nerfing it beyond that would make the game too gank heavy and fixing that bug will keep Revenge from effecting duels much and mostly keep it out of 1 on 1 situations.

Duelist skills transfer to Dominion nicely, but Dominion is the game's main mode. Dueling is like 1 on 1 basketball while Dominion is like 5 on 5. Kobe is like a duelist, but he wouldn't have won with Shaq and the role players around them. Ben Wallace wouldn't be great in 1 on 1, but he was able to win the MVP as part of a team.

My point is this - Don't sacrifice Dominion to balance competitive Dueling. Competitive Dueling isn't what drives this game. What drives it are its multiple aspects - and that includes team strategies and the RPG aspects that the gear brings.

I disagree, because unlike a game like Overwatch, this game has no emphasis on team composition whatsoever. It doesn't help that there isn't a ranked 4v4 mode nor a decent matchmaking system that can truly demonstrate high level 4v4. At least with 1v1s and 2v2s there are tournaments ran where you can see great players doing everything in their power to get a win thus showing full potential of the characters they play.
Yes, the characters mostly have different playstyles, but there is 0 reason for a team not to just have 4 fully-geared Conqs and just dominate an entire match.
There are simply too many random factors in 4v4 for it to be taken seriously as a competitive mode. At least in 2v2 there is no respawn no gear stats and characters are limited to 1 per team so you can see how characters synergize with each other. And so far the result is that there isn't any synergy required because all that matters is that you win your duel as fast as possible in order to help your teammate gank the remaining opponent.

 

[GAV]

I disagree, because unlike a game like Overwatch, this game has no emphasis on team composition whatsoever. It doesn't help that there isn't a ranked 4v4 mode nor a decent matchmaking system that can truly demonstrate high level 4v4. At least with 1v1s and 2v2s there are tournaments ran where you can see great players doing everything in their power to get a win thus showing full potential of the characters they play.
Yes, the characters mostly have different playstyles, but there is 0 reason for a team not to just have 4 fully-geared Conqs and just dominate an entire match.
There are simply too many random factors in 4v4 for it to be taken seriously as a competitive mode. At least in 2v2 there is no respawn no gear stats and characters are limited to 1 per team so you can see how characters synergize with each other. And so far the result is that there isn't any synergy required because all that matters is that you win your duel as fast as possible in order to help your teammate gank the remaining opponent.

You think that because you want to think that, but there are more players playing Dominion than any other mode. The 4v4 modes, even with all the disconnects, is where almost the entire console player base spends its time - and, unlike the PC base, the console base has remained active.

 

[Baconlord]

You think that because you want to think that, but there are more players playing Dominion than any other mode. The 4v4 modes, even with all the disconnects, is where almost the entire console player base spends its time - and, unlike the PC base, the console base has remained active.

Yeah and most of the time when I play overwatch I just play quick play and try to find the dumbest custom games where I hide from giant gorillas as a mercy with 20 health and the speed of a toddler who's parents rewarded him with a liter of sprite because he was a good boy. Doesn't mean I expect blizzard to balance the game around these dumb party modes

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

You think that because you want to think that, but there are more players playing Dominion than any other mode. The 4v4 modes, even with all the disconnects, is where almost the entire console player base spends its time - and, unlike the PC base, the console base has remained active.

It doesn't matter what I think. What matters is reality. It's just like how pubstomping in CoD differs to actual tournament play.

Also of course most of the playerbase will spend their time in 4v4. They're the more casual modes you can play with your non-FG player buddies. Like I said before, there are too many outside factors that come into play in order to win 4v4s that you don't ever really need to know how to play the game. And that's simply more rewarding to the casual player.

Whereas you(not you personally, I mean the casual) go into 2v2 and 1v1, get destroyed by someone who actually understands the game, complain about honor then either go back to 4v4 or never touch the game again.

Imagine if an NRS title had a 2v2 brawl like SFxT where all 4 players play at the same time, I assure you 99% of the casual player would be playing it with their friends.

 

[GAV]

@Baconlord @Gesture Required Ahead

I'm not saying to shit on the 1v1 and 2v2 modes. No doubt, these modes help legitamize the franchise. I'm saying don't shit on the 4v4 because thats where most of the players are.

If they ruin the balance of the 4v4 modes to get it perfect for dueling - that is going to severly hurt the modes where most players are. The minority is important by virtue of not only numbers, but by knowledge, skill, and voice - but it isn't more important than the majority. Minority has a say, but majority should rule.

 

[Baconlord]

@Baconlord @Gesture Required Ahead

I'm not saying to shit on the 1v1 and 2v2 modes. No doubt, these modes help legitamize the franchise. I'm saying don't shit on the 4v4 because thats where most of the players are.

If they ruin the balance of the 4v4 modes to get it perfect for dueling - that is going to severly hurt the modes where most players are. The minority is important by virtue of not only numbers, but by knowledge, skill, and voice - but it isn't more important than the majority. Minority has a say, but majority should rule.

The majority of smash players play with items on. Should they have any influence on balance? If people want to play domionion that's fine. I think dominion is fun as hell but that doesn't change the fact that it's pretty much this games party mode.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

@Baconlord @Gesture Required Ahead

I'm not saying to shit on the 1v1 and 2v2 modes. No doubt, these modes help legitamize the franchise. I'm saying don't shit on the 4v4 because thats where most of the players are.

If they ruin the balance of the 4v4 modes to get it perfect for dueling - that is going to severly hurt the modes where most players are. The minority is important by virtue of not only numbers, but by knowledge, skill, and voice - but it isn't more important than the majority. Minority has a say, but majority should rule.

But you and I already agree that 1v1 aspects of the game doesn't affect 4v4 much. There's nothing they can do that makes 4v4 bad by changing 1v1 balance.

If they put out a patch on Tuesday making PK's Zone attack punishable I guarantee you it won't change shit for 4v4 because 99.99% of those players doesn't even know what the word "punishable" means.

I had to deal with a lot of dominion players in 2v2 lately because of the brawl orders and I had a Rep 5 Warden whine about how Conq's Light is guaranteed after Shield Bash so I switch to Warden to show him that he also had guaranteed attacks as well as show him how to use and counter his zone attack.

How in the fuck do you get to Rep 5 without knowing the A,B,Cs of your character? He then proceeds to whine about how I'm not the average player and I'm good. Which is absolute bullshit because my Warden stats in fhtracker is too embarassing to even show here.

Anyway, point is: There isn't many (if any) representation of high-level 4v4 play (or even a basis on how to format it) to start judging how to balance it. And since the game's core mechanics lie in duels, that's where you will see high-level play as well as where it should be balanced around.

 

[Juggs]

Actually, Dominion is one of the only truly competitive game modes tournament wise. Perhaps Elimination as well. The problem is there needs to be an option to disable gear stats in matchmaking. Because right now there's no reason to play it. Even if you have a full team of 108's, that doesn't guarantee you will go against a team that also has high gear score. Gear score is too random and gives too much advantage/disadvantage.

The reason duels aren't that great competitively right now is because there's no incentive to not play defensive or run away. There's no life lead victory. There's no reason in a tournament setting to not camp a ledge as Warlord and just sit there.

Brawls are a little better because the incentive to attack is that if you don't, you could get ganked. The quicker you finish off your opponent the better it is for your teammate and your chances of winning. However in matchmaking, most players just do two separate 1v1's, which in a tournament scenario that would rarely happen.

Like I've said, in order for duels to be taken seriously competitively there needs to be an incentive to attack and not run away or camp ledges. Like a KoTH respawn mode where you get points for being in the hill, points for doing damage to your opponent in the hill, and a set number of bonus pts for killing your opponent.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

So I'm trying out Shugoki now and I can't get the guaranteed Side Heavy after Oni Charge and Google doesn't seem to help. How do I do it?

Actually, Dominion is one of the only truly competitive game modes tournament wise. Perhaps Elimination as well. The problem is there needs to be an option to disable gear stats in matchmaking. Because right now there's no reason to play it. Even if you have a full team of 108's, that doesn't guarantee you will go against a team that also has high gear score. Gear score is too random and gives too much advantage/disadvantage.

The reason duels aren't that great competitively right now is because there's no incentive to not play defensive or run away. There's no life lead victory. There's no reason in a tournament setting to not camp a ledge as Warlord and just sit there.

Brawls are a little better because the incentive to attack is that if you don't, you could get ganked. The quicker you finish off your opponent the better it is for your teammate and your chances of winning. However in matchmaking, most players just do two separate 1v1's, which in a tournament scenario that would rarely happen.

Like I've said, in order for duels to be taken seriously competitively there needs to be an incentive to attack and not run away or camp ledges. Like a KoTH respawn mode where you get points for being in the hill, points for doing damage to your opponent in the hill, and a set number of bonus pts for killing your opponent.

I mostly agree. The problem with 1v1 is that maps are simply too big that characters with slower movement speed can simply get forced to a draw by faster characters. 1v1 version of maps need to be changed so that running away causes the player to be disadvantaged environment-wise. There should also be more chip damage so that characters can't just block forever without consequence especially those with Superior Block.
2v2s IMO is the best game mode as of now competitively because of the gank factor and how it forces the dueling players to finish their fights as fast as possible in order to help their teammate.
But 4v4 modes right now are too chaotic by nature to have any competitive aspect other than having an objective to force players into playing. And Elimination removes even that

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

Ok nvm on the Shugoki thing I figured it out. For future reference if anyone needs it:
Oni Charge doesn't start up immediately, so when you charge towards someone wait 'til he/she starts falling then immediately lock on then do Side Heavy while holding forward. When you hold forward it moves you toward the opponent mid-attack so that's how you get the hit

 

[GAV]

The majority of smash players play with items on. Should they have any influence on balance? If people want to play domionion that's fine. I think dominion is fun as hell but that doesn't change the fact that it's pretty much this games party mode.

I don't know enough about Smash to bat an eye at any comparison to it. In For Honor, shitting on Dominion to balance Dueling would be a major mistake that could kill the franchise early.

 

[GAV]

But you and I already agree that 1v1 aspects of the game doesn't affect 4v4 much. There's nothing they can do that makes 4v4 bad by changing 1v1 balance.

If they put out a patch on Tuesday making PK's Zone attack punishable I guarantee you it won't change shit for 4v4 because 99.99% of those players doesn't even know what the word "punishable" means.

I had to deal with a lot of dominion players in 2v2 lately because of the brawl orders and I had a Rep 5 Warden whine about how Conq's Light is guaranteed after Shield Bash so I switch to Warden to show him that he also had guaranteed attacks as well as show him how to use and counter his zone attack.

How in the fuck do you get to Rep 5 without knowing the A,B,Cs of your character? He then proceeds to whine about how I'm not the average player and I'm good. Which is absolute bullshit because my Warden stats in fhtracker is too embarassing to even show here.

Anyway, point is: There isn't many (if any) representation of high-level 4v4 play (or even a basis on how to format it) to start judging how to balance it. And since the game's core mechanics lie in duels, that's where you will see high-level play as well as where it should be balanced around.

...but that is the point. The idea that the game is unbalanced only exists in dueling. In 4v4, its fairly well balanced.

A decent Lawbringer owns in grouped up fights. They can turn the tide quickly. In duels, they kinda suck - but not in Dominion. In Dominion, as long as they don't try to solo, they're great.

When the design team balanced this game, their first focus was 4v4. The mechanics revolve around 1v1 because that is how they knew how to make it work.

They have already made more off of Season Pass and steel than game sales.

 

[GAV]

Actually, Dominion is one of the only truly competitive game modes tournament wise. Perhaps Elimination as well. The problem is there needs to be an option to disable gear stats in matchmaking. Because right now there's no reason to play it. Even if you have a full team of 108's, that doesn't guarantee you will go against a team that also has high gear score. Gear score is too random and gives too much advantage/disadvantage.

The reason duels aren't that great competitively right now is because there's no incentive to not play defensive or run away. There's no life lead victory. There's no reason in a tournament setting to not camp a ledge as Warlord and just sit there.

Brawls are a little better because the incentive to attack is that if you don't, you could get ganked. The quicker you finish off your opponent the better it is for your teammate and your chances of winning. However in matchmaking, most players just do two separate 1v1's, which in a tournament scenario that would rarely happen.

Like I've said, in order for duels to be taken seriously competitively there needs to be an incentive to attack and not run away or camp ledges. Like a KoTH respawn mode where you get points for being in the hill, points for doing damage to your opponent in the hill, and a set number of bonus pts for killing your opponent.

It took me two days to reach a 108 gear score.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

...but that is the point. The idea that the game is unbalanced only exists in dueling. In 4v4, its fairly well balanced.

A decent Lawbringer owns in grouped up fights. They can turn the tide quickly. In duels, they kinda suck - but not in Dominion. In Dominion, as long as they don't try to solo, they're great.

When the design team balanced this game, their first focus was 4v4. The mechanics revolve around 1v1 because that is how they knew how to make it work.

They have already made more off of Season Pass and steel than game sales.

That is not my point. Far from it

 

[GAV]

That is not my point. Far from it

I know. Its mine.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

I know. Its mine.

But I'm saying there is no way to know if 4v4 is unbalanced or not because you don't see high-level play of it. It's like if no one played Alien in MKX in a tourney and saying "Alien is fine" you have NO idea until you actually see high-level play

 

[GAV]

But I'm saying there is no way to know if 4v4 is unbalanced or not because you don't see high-level play of it. It's like if no one played Alien in MKX in a tourney and saying "Alien is fine" you have NO idea until you actually see high-level play

I.have.seen.it.



In all seriousness, I have. If you only judge it by 1v1 standards, you're missing key elements...

Without blockstun, what is punishable is very different.

Spacing is more important by angles, appropriate reactions, and appropriate approaches and retreats than distance.

Stretching defenses and defending is about decisions over implementation.

Health and stamina aren't the only meters you must be aware of. Revenge Meters are just as important.

Not only are zones, but also choke points very important to be aware of.

Matchups change by group, not just character.

Team synergy is only secondary to skill. Holding zones, but moving to let teammates heal is importsnt. Coordinating attacks strategically and within the moment to stagger strings and stay on the offensive are even more important. Even more important than that is holding back to create and avoid traps.

Overall awareness of what works together and what whiffs is often the difference between victory and defeat.