For Honor

[Gesture Required Ahead]

Some stuff I agree with and some I don't, but if the video is well done and gives info - I forward it because I'm not trying paint information one way or the other. I just present it and offer my opinion.

Your post illustrates what I'm getting at. Your way of looking at this game is from the perspective of being inundated with 1 on 1 fighting - so you can only see this game from a duelist's perspective - but that isn't all this game is - so I hope the developers take whatever advice on balancing you give them with a grain of salt.

Trashing the balance of Dominion to make it perfect for dueling would be a major mistake.

There is nothing that any change in 1v1 would majorly affect 4v4. You yourself keep defending about how dueling aspects aren't all it takes to win Dominion.

Hell, with some characters, you don't even ever need to lock on in Dominion to play it.

 

[GAV]

There is nothing that any change in 1v1 would majorly affect 4v4. You yourself keep defending about how dueling aspects aren't all it takes to win Dominion.

Hell, with some characters, you don't even ever need to lock on in Dominion to play it.

Your last statement doesn't make any sense unless it was a joke.

Lawbringers aren't good in duels, but they're great when appropriately utilized in team fights. Their throw only gets them a light in one on one matchups, but it holds them defenseless to be hit by others in team fights. If they give them tools to make them 1v1 viable without toning that back - they will dominate team fights without much difficulty.

I'm not saying don't try to achieve 1v1 balance. I'm just saying don't do it at 4v4's expense.

 

[Basic Stupidity]

Some stuff I agree with and some I don't, but if the video is well done and gives info - I forward it because I'm not trying paint information one way or the other. I just present it and offer my opinion.

Your post illustrates what I'm getting at. Your way of looking at this game is from the perspective of being inundated with 1 on 1 fighting - so you can only see this game from a duelist's perspective - but that isn't all this game is - so I hope the developers take whatever advice on balancing you give them with a grain of salt.

Trashing the balance of Dominion to make it perfect for dueling would be a major mistake.

You're implying that 4s isn't just the party game mode and 4s is balanced. 4s is a broken mess that is not meant to be competitive, it's a random cluster fuck. The entire lock on system is based on duels, more than 75% of the movesets are locked play and the rest is still used in duels. Every move of the useable characters is used in duels but not in 4s. 4s is the tool that attracts the casual audience while duels is for the competitive audience

 

[GAV]

You're implying that 4s isn't just the party game mode and 4s is balanced. 4s is a broken mess that is not meant to be competitive, it's a random cluster fuck. The entire lock on system is based on duels, more than 75% of the movesets are locked play and the rest is still used in duels. Every move of the useable characters is used in duels but not in 4s. 4s is the tool that attracts the casual audience while duels is for the competitive audience

You're wrong, but how can you know since you don't play Dominion?

I am not trying to dismiss you. I am simply trying to get you to see the other side.

Fighting game players have been conditioned to be skeptical and to try things out for themselves. Now, I don't get much joy from dueling - so I have done very little of it. Since you don't seem to enjoy Dominion - I get why you're missing part of the picture, but you aren't going to get it unless you dedicate some time to the mode - since I know nothing I say matters since you have been conditioned not to trust.

I dueled exclusively for a dedicated day and a half of playing, so I get the basics and what is good and such, but I will admit that some of the higher level nuances elude me. I'm not pretending to be an authority, but right now you're only seeing things through the eyes of a duelist.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

Your last statement doesn't make any sense unless it was a joke.

Lawbringers aren't good in duels, but they're great when appropriately utilized in team fights. Their throw only gets them a light in one on one matchups, but it holds them defenseless to be hit by others in team fights. If they give them tools to make them 1v1 viable without toning that back - they will dominate team fights without much difficulty.

I'm not saying don't try to achieve 1v1 balance. I'm just saying don't do it at 4v4's expense.

What do you even mean by this? You mean like options after a GB? Why would you do that when you can already get a guaranteed side Heavy into Shove?

And what about characters who are already good in 1v1 and is even better in ganks? Like Warlord and Conq.

Ganking as well as other 4v4 elements serve as a crutch for shittier characters. And there's no tradeoff to characters who are already good in duels. Changing the characters to achieve better balance in duels will not affect 4v4 in a major way.

Do you think casuals who play Smash with 7 other players care about who's top tier or not? No they don't. They play with items on in maps that have BS mechanics all for shits and giggles in order to have fun with no competitive nature in mind.

I'll repeat what I previously said and even provide a new example: If PK's Zone Attack were to be made punishable tomorrow do you think the casuals who play her will stop playing her? No they don't because they have no idea how this change affects them. For all casuals know PK is just a character you use to spam Lights.

Example 2: If Kensei's Side Lights get faster and he gets a better zone attack do you think casuals will start playing him differently? No because all they do is stick with their teammate and keep mashing Heavy in order to get the Unblockable out in a gank. Or just do Swift Strike over and over again thinking they can't ever be punished.

4v4 is too much of a clusterfuck right now to even know what's good and what's not (aka the meta) so there's no way of knowing whether any changes made to the game in order to make duels better will ruin 4v4 or not.

 

[GAV]

What do you even mean by this? You mean like options after a GB? Why would you do that when you can already get a guaranteed side Heavy into Shove?

And what about characters who are already good in 1v1 and is even better in ganks? Like Warlord and Conq.

Ganking as well as other 4v4 elements serve as a crutch for shittier characters. And there's no tradeoff to characters who are already good in duels. Changing the characters to achieve better balance in duels will not affect 4v4 in a major way.

Do you think casuals who play Smash with 7 other players care about who's top tier or not? No they don't. They play with items on in maps that have BS mechanics all for shits and giggles in order to have fun with no competitive nature in mind.

I'll repeat what I previously said and even provide a new example: If PK's Zone Attack were to be made punishable tomorrow do you think the casuals who play her will stop playing her? No they don't because they have no idea how this change affects them. For all casuals know PK is just a character you use to spam Lights.

Example 2: If Kensei's Side Lights get faster and he gets a better zone attack do you think casuals will start playing him differently? No because all they do is stick with their teammate and keep mashing Heavy in order to get the Unblockable out in a gank. Or just do Swift Strike over and over again thinking they can't ever be punished.

4v4 is too much of a clusterfuck right now to even know what's good and what's not (aka the meta) so there's no way of knowing whether any changes made to the game in order to make duels better will ruin 4v4 or not.

The questions you are posing and the points you are making solidify my position because you clearly haven't played Dominion enough to know what I'm referring to when I cite Dominion dynamics and strategies - so play the mode for a good long serious stretch and then we can have a discussion. I don't know enough about Smash to discuss Smash or make anything out of comparisons to Smash.

Citing something simple, in Dominion grouped fights - I switch dance partners on a whim seamlessly and often and it catches opponents off-guard alot. Thats not a skill that is useful in dueling, but its a sneaky good weapon in Dominion.

Half of the fights I encounter in Dominion are 1v1, so balancing for 1v1 even helps Dominion. I just don't want them balancing for dueling without considering how it will affect Dominion and the other 4v4 modes because grouped fights are a big part of them and dynamics from character to character change greatly from 1v1 situations to team fights.

 

[Baconlord]

FUCK DOMINION! It's a bullishit mode for bullishit people

 

[Basic Stupidity]

FUCK DOMINION! It's a bullishit mode for bullishit people

this is prolly satire but its true.
The more and more I read gavs posts the more it solidifies my thoughts that he is a bad player that doesnt understand the game and too far gone to ever convince him otherwise.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

The questions you are posing and the points you are making solidify my position because you clearly haven't played Dominion enough to know what I'm referring to when I cite Dominion dynamics and strategies - so play the mode for a good long serious stretch and then we can have a discussion. I don't know enough about Smash to discuss Smash or make anything out of comparisons to Smash.

Citing something simple, in Dominion grouped fights - I switch dance partners on a whim seamlessly and often and it catches opponents off-guard alot. Thats not a skill that is useful in dueling, but its a sneaky good weapon in Dominion.

Half of the fights I encounter in Dominion are 1v1, so balancing for 1v1 even helps Dominion. I just don't want them balancing for dueling without considering how it will affect Dominion and the other 4v4 modes because grouped fights are a big part of them and dynamics from character to character change greatly from 1v1 situations to team fights.

How is "throw" exclusively related to Dominion? So you're just gonna brush me off by repeating yourself with empty words and made-up terms? I make the comparisons to Smash because Smash is intended to be a party game yet it's taken very seriously in competitions. And when they are playing it in competitions they don't play it in the party setting it's intended to be played with.

Which is similar to For Honor. Yes, everyone and their moms play Dominion because the chaos makes the game rewarding with little effort when played by casuals. But just because that's the case in casual play does not mean that game balance should be worked around it. That's just nonsensical.

If you want a familiar comparison it's like telling NRS that MKX should have been balanced around Test Your Luck.

Until Dominion becomes the main gametype for tournament play (which will need a lot of looking into because of Gear+feats), finding out the meta and balancing it is simply useless and is a waste of time and money for Ubi.

 

[GAV]

FUCK DOMINION! It's a bullishit mode for bullishit people

That sounds like an elitist mentality.

 

[Lex Luthor II]

For Honor will never be that good for the simple fact that it almost universally punishes you for attacking or being aggressive. Until they fix the turtling it will never be something on the level of MK or IGAU

 

[GAV]

How is "throw" exclusively related to Dominion? So you're just gonna brush me off by repeating yourself with empty words and made-up terms? I make the comparisons to Smash because Smash is intended to be a party game yet it's taken very seriously in competitions. And when they are playing it in competitions they don't play it in the party setting it's intended to be played with.

Which is similar to For Honor. Yes, everyone and their moms play Dominion because the chaos makes the game rewarding with little effort when played by casuals. But just because that's the case in casual play does not mean that game balance should be worked around it. That's just nonsensical.

If you want a familiar comparison it's like telling NRS that MKX should have been balanced around Test Your Luck.

Until Dominion becomes the main gametype for tournament play (which will need a lot of looking into because of Gear+feats), finding out the meta and balancing it is simply useless and is a waste of time and money for Ubi.

I think Dominion is going to be the competitive mode that survives the longest because that is the mode everyone plays making it the mode most players can relate to.

Throws aren't exclusive to Dominion, but when a throw is landed in Dominion - other players in the vicinity can pour the damage on. Throws in Dominion, and not just the Shugoki's, can mean one and done without any map hazards in site. The other players can make themselves hazards if they are heady enough to take advantage.

You guys talking about Dominion sound like me talking about soccer. Just because I don't like it doesn't make it worthless.

 

[Baconlord]

@GAV So let's take my bottom tier character nobushi. Let's say they gave her faster lights and made her unlockable a little faster. How would that ruin 4s? Or conquer had a bit more recovery on his shield bash. How would that break 4s? Or maybe we just make pk' s zone unsafe. How would that break 4s?

 

[GAV]

this is prolly satire but its true.
The more and more I read gavs posts the more it solidifies my thoughts that he is a bad player that doesnt understand the game and too far gone to ever convince him otherwise.

I'm not great, but I understand the game well enough to know that you can only see 4H from a duelist's perspective. Hopefully 4H survives long enough so that we can rehash this discussion when a clear path can be seen. Hopefully, you play a little Dominion so we can discuss things intelligently with both of us having a little insight from both sides. Hopefully, the new characters are so cool that we stay engaged long enough that we can argue balancing on them too.

 

[GAV]

@GAV So let's take my bottom tier character nobushi. Let's say they gave her faster lights and made her unlockable a little faster. How would that ruin 4s? Or conquer had a bit more recovery on his shield bash. How would that break 4s? Or maybe we just make pk' s zone unsafe. How would that break 4s?

All of those things, I think, would make both modes better.

Where they need to be careful is with the Shugoki and the Lawbringer, since they already both dominate grouped fights.

I would like to see the Berzerker get some help too.

I think that slight tweaking is the way to go. Heavy handed nerfing and/or buffing would be a mistake.

I actually think the way to help the Nobushi is to make her entry into her hidden stance seamless and give it a short invincible start-up window to give her a weapon to keep her from getting rushed down so much.

 

[GAV]

For Honor will never be that good for the simple fact that it almost universally punishes you for attacking or being aggressive. Until they fix the turtling it will never be something on the level of MK or IGAU

Why is defense not fun? Defense in 4H is so deep.

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

I think Dominion is going to be the competitive mode that survives the longest because that is the mode everyone plays making it the mode most players can relate to.

Throws aren't exclusive to Dominion, but when a throw is landed in Dominion - other players in the vicinity can pour the damage on. Throws in Dominion, and not just the Shugoki's, can mean one and done without any map hazards in site. The other players can make themselves hazards if they are heady enough to take advantage.

You guys talking about Dominion sound like me talking about soccer. Just because I don't like it doesn't make it worthless.

Again, just because a game mode is the most played doesn't mean it should be the competitive standard. I know you said you didn't play Smash but that's in the exact same situation. Feel free to believe me or not Smash is one of the biggest FG communities alongside being one of the most popular FGs that exists.

If that's the case for throws, how is it something that only LB benefit from? Aside from unique throws in the game like Raider, Goki or WL, I still can't see how any changes in 1v1 balance will affect 4v4 whatsoever.

I don't think Dominion is worthless. But it lacks a competitive standard and has little high level exposure due to shitty matchmaking that it's hard to take seriously in terms of balancing around it. How do you even suppose they run 4v4 tournaments? Have everyone play on their accounts? What if a team is composed of people on different platforms? Does that mean 1 guy is playing gearless? Then why isn't there a competitive mode that removes gear and feats? There are too many unknown factors that need to be solved before you get into worrying about character balance...in 4v4s.
But in 1v1 there is more than enough evidence to show what's currently good and what isn't so it makes sense to balance around that.

Why is defense not fun? Defense in 4H is so deep.

By deep you mean easily blocking 90% of the moves in the game because they're reactable and the unreactable moves just cause coinflip mixups then sure it's deep. Deep as a kiddy pool. Let's not pretend this game requires the same amount of thinking to defend like in SF.

Granted I hate how most FGs nowadays are inclined towards offense, I don't think FH executed the "defensive game" thing well. Hell I don't even think that's really their intention and they just said that because kneejerk reaction to complaints. Just like how they said the low steel gain was their intention but they increase it anyway.

Ubi is not the type of company to be upfront to its users. Try not to take what they say at face value.

 

[GAV]

Again, just because a game mode is the most played doesn't mean it should be the competitive standard. I know you said you didn't play Smash but that's in the exact same situation. Feel free to believe me or not Smash is one of the biggest FG communities alongside being one of the most popular FGs that exists.

If that's the case for throws, how is it something that only LB benefit from? Aside from unique throws in the game like Raider, Goki or WL, I still can't see how any changes in 1v1 balance will affect 4v4 whatsoever.

I don't think Dominion is worthless. But it lacks a competitive standard and has little high level exposure due to shitty matchmaking that it's hard to take seriously in terms of balancing around it. How do you even suppose they run 4v4 tournaments? Have everyone play on their accounts? What if a team is composed of people on different platforms? Does that mean 1 guy is playing gearless? Then why isn't there a competitive mode that removes gear and feats? There are too many unknown factors that need to be solved before you get into worrying about character balance...in 4v4s.
But in 1v1 there is more than enough evidence to show what's currently good and what isn't so it makes sense to balance around that.


By deep you mean easily blocking 90% of the moves in the game because they're reactable and the unreactable moves just cause coinflip mixups then sure it's deep. Deep as a kiddy pool. Let's not pretend this game requires the same amount of thinking to defend like in SF.

Granted I hate how most FGs nowadays are inclined towards offense, I don't think FH executed the "defensive game" thing well. Hell I don't even think that's really their intention and they just said that because kneejerk reaction to complaints. Just like how they said the low steel gain was their intention but they increase it anyway.

Ubi is not the type of company to be upfront to its users. Try not to take what they say at face value.

The Lawbringer's and Shugoki's throws hold their opponents in one spot long enough for their teammates to tee off on them. The other throws are either quick or make for a moving target, so they can't just be teed off on.

Everyone should be 108 in these tournaments. It allows for customization furthering diversity for better team stratagies and role fulfillment.

Defending in SF is 2nd nature to most of us. In 4H, it is much more difficult to consistently defend efficiently. With SF, it either block or block high. With 4H, its defend one of three directions. In both 4H and SF, you can tech throws - but in 4H there are parries. Defending in 4H is much more difficult just by the amount of variables.

I think the backlash against the defensive gameplay is a product of how games like Tekken, SF, and MK have conditioned us to be a little brain dead on offense when it comes to circumventing blocking. We are used to landing one hit and going into a combo. In those games, in order to defend - you need to zone - or - you need to be a rush down player. Without zoning, they were careful not to make rushdown too strong - so defense is the meta. If they want offense to be stronger, just make attacking cost a little less stamina.

Ubi isn't straightforward, but at least they're not EA.

 

[Baconlord]

The Lawbringer's and Shugoki's throws hold their opponents in one spot long enough for their teammates to tee off on them. The other throws are either quick or make for a moving target, so they can't just be teed off on.

Everyone should be 108 in these tournaments. It allows for customization furthering diversity for better team stratagies and role fulfillment.

Defending in SF is 2nd nature to most of us. In 4H, it is much more difficult to consistently defend efficiently. With SF, it either block or block high. With 4H, its defend one of three directions. In both 4H and SF, you can tech throws - but in 4H there are parries. Defending in 4H is much more difficult just by the amount of variables.

I think the backlash against the defensive gameplay is a product of how games like Tekken, SF, and MK have conditioned us to be a little brain dead on offense when it comes to circumventing blocking. We are used to landing one hit and going into a combo. In those games, in order to defend - you need to zone - or - you need to be a rush down player. Without zoning, they were careful not to make rushdown too strong - so defense is the meta. If they want offense to be stronger, just make attacking cost a little less stamina.

Ubi isn't straightforward, but at least they're not EA.

The defensive game is no where near sf so please do yourself a favor and at least attempt to hide your ignorance

 

[Basic Stupidity]

I'm not great, but I understand the game well enough to know that you can only see 4H from a duelist's perspective. Hopefully 4H survives long enough so that we can rehash this discussion when a clear path can be seen. Hopefully, you play a little Dominion so we can discuss things intelligently with both of us having a little insight from both sides. Hopefully, the new characters are so cool that we stay engaged long enough that we can argue balancing on them too.

1st I have played all the 4s game modes, in fact I've played them frequently not because they are competitive but for the exact opposite reason, to just chill and relax after some stressful duels. I know what I am taking about when I say it's a cluster fuck. 2nd you don't seem to understand that this game doesn't need to be out any longer it's never going to change anyone's mind 4s is the party mode of for honor the test your luck of for honor, no ones going to want to play a random game that encourages bad players in a competitive scene. Also no one wants to see that, they want to see the best player/team always win and for the matches to be competitive not random. You are acting like if smash was out for just a little bit longer they'll find out that all the items on and all the maps unlocked is the real competitive scene that everyone wants to see. This game isn't depth it's really simple and casual as it is no one wants to see this shit except shitters

 

[Basic Stupidity]

Why is defense not fun? Defense in 4H is so deep.

Oh boy, you lost all credit with that statement there bud.

There's no depth to literally reacting to every move in the game. Maybe it is for you since you can't react to everything but good players can. Where's the depth in a game where you literally can't do anything if your playing a mid to low tier character?

 

[GAV]

@Baconlord @Basic Stupidity
Defense in SF is easy to me. I don't get how it is difficult, but whatever. Defending in 4H is more difficult for me because of more variables.

Dominion online is how you say it is. Its a very inclusive mode which draws players of all skill levels in. Competitive Dominion would be a bit different though because there will be 8 highly skilled players and each team will have devised strategies to maximize their winning potential. In addition, these strategies would evolve going forward. As long as there is a way for viewers to catch all the action, as long as the game has legs, the games will garner a large and diverse audience. Developing a way, and getting finding to create it, to view the action is the only real hurdle.

 

[Baconlord]

@Baconlord @Basic Stupidity
Defense in SF is easy to me. I don't get how it is difficult, but whatever. Defending in 4H is more difficult for me because of more variables.

Dominion online is how you say it is. Its a very inclusive mode which draws players of all skill levels in. Competitive Dominion would be a bit different though because there will be 8 highly skilled players and each team will have devised strategies to maximize their winning potential. In addition, these strategies would evolve going forward. As long as there is a way for viewers to catch all the action, as long as the game has legs, the games will garner a large and diverse audience. Developing a way, and getting finding to create it, to view the action is the only real hurdle.

Put in sf4 and block ibuki mixups. Then tell me how easy defense is

 

[Gesture Required Ahead]

The Lawbringer's and Shugoki's throws hold their opponents in one spot long enough for their teammates to tee off on them. The other throws are either quick or make for a moving target, so they can't just be teed off on.

Everyone should be 108 in these tournaments. It allows for customization furthering diversity for better team stratagies and role fulfillment.

Defending in SF is 2nd nature to most of us. In 4H, it is much more difficult to consistently defend efficiently. With SF, it either block or block high. With 4H, its defend one of three directions. In both 4H and SF, you can tech throws - but in 4H there are parries. Defending in 4H is much more difficult just by the amount of variables.

I think the backlash against the defensive gameplay is a product of how games like Tekken, SF, and MK have conditioned us to be a little brain dead on offense when it comes to circumventing blocking. We are used to landing one hit and going into a combo. In those games, in order to defend - you need to zone - or - you need to be a rush down player. Without zoning, they were careful not to make rushdown too strong - so defense is the meta. If they want offense to be stronger, just make attacking cost a little less stamina.

Ubi isn't straightforward, but at least they're not EA.

"Everyone should be 108 in these tournaments" is achieved...how exactly? There is no surefire way to unlock all content in the game and believe me, Ubisoft wouldn't like that anyway. Not without having you give them possibly hundreds of dollars that is.

In traditional FGs, be it SF or anything else, most attacks are not as slow as 30frames(in 60fps setting aka half a freaking second). If you tried to block forever you'll get opened up one day as well as taking chip along the way (or guard damage depending on the game). And not a lot of games give you a combo for landing a single hit. Unlike in NRS games, hit-confirming is actually something that needs practice in a lot of other games. Also having 3 different directions to block from is irrelevant when you can see 90% of the attacks coming at you as well as you getting little to no drawback to simply sitting there. And if you think SF defense is only High-Low then yea that pretty much solidifies the extent of your knowledge in it.

 

[Baconlord]

You also don't have a year to tech a throw in sf