What's new

Fatal Blows must be changed

Scyther

Mortal Kombat-phile
Premium Supporter
"Yea you are right one wrong move and you might die without being able to use it, but one wrong move from your opponent and you might win the game with it even before your opponent has access to his."

Literally just described the reasoning behind the FB mechanic, and why it makes tense fights even more tense, and thus more fun to both play and watch.

And again, if you're "one wrong move" from losing to a FB...you weren't really winning all that much to begin with. It's not like you were dominating with an 80% health lead, and then suddenly lost due to a raw FB.

Much ado about nothing.
 

NeonGroovyGator

Edenia's Ambassador
The more I play and watch the game, the more convinced I am that FBs are fine. I used to have a lot of problems with it at first, but now I think it's a neat mechanic.
The only thing that I'd maybe change is one attemped per round. And changing some FBs that are way stronger than others like Erron's.
 
Fatal Blows are detrimental to skilled play. It's a dumb mechanic that does nothing but rubber-band matches like the Blue Shell in Mario Kart.

It's an anti-climatic experience seeing them used and neutral play being halted.

Can anyone (incognito NRS employees included) elaborate on why it's needed?
Damn you think it’s as bad as blue shell?
 
my solution would be to reduce fatal blow damage to 10-15% but not have it scale in a combo.

so if you end a swag combo with it you will get bonkers damage that you deserve because you opened someone up, and if you just do a raw full screen fatal blow it's not that big of a deal
I don’t want any changes to fatal blow but if I had to choose one, I’d like this. Yea the animations can get tiring but in my opinion it’s worth looking at in a really good combo
 

Pan1cMode

AUS FGC represent!
Premium Supporter
"Yea you are right one wrong move and you might die without being able to use it, but one wrong move from your opponent and you might win the game with it even before your opponent has access to his."

Literally just described the reasoning behind the FB mechanic, and why it makes tense fights even more tense, and thus more fun to both play and watch.

And again, if you're "one wrong move" from losing to a FB...you weren't really winning all that much to begin with. It's not like you were dominating with an 80% health lead, and then suddenly lost due to a raw FB.

Much ado about nothing.
I kinda agree, but there are definitely some fatal blows that have ridiculous come back attached to them. For example Jax; he hits fatal blow, gets 310 damage. He’s now heated up. He’s in your face with a strike/throw mixup that both lead to Krushing blows which do 310 damage. You could have a literal 70% life lead and lose all because of fatal blow.

I’m not complaining though, I like it.
 

Afumba

Noob
"Yea you are right one wrong move and you might die without being able to use it, but one wrong move from your opponent and you might win the game with it even before your opponent has access to his."

Literally just described the reasoning behind the FB mechanic, and why it makes tense fights even more tense, and thus more fun to both play and watch.

And again, if you're "one wrong move" from losing to a FB...you weren't really winning all that much to begin with. It's not like you were dominating with an 80% health lead, and then suddenly lost due to a raw FB.

Much ado about nothing.
Its your opinion that it makes fights more fun to watch and play. As it is my opinion that it isnt. Especially while spectating FB leave a bad taste more often than not, at least for me. So stop generalizing things.

It also doesnt matter if someone is winning by much or not, the fact that the player winning is put in an uncomfortable position for winning is not appealing to me, both as player and spectator.

Nobody making "much ado", just stating my opinion as you do yours. You like it, good for you. Enjoy it. I dont and even if i would win the next 1000 games in a row due to it i would still dislike it. Why is it so hard to understand that some people just dont like things you do like?
 
fb are kind of a resource because you can use it only once. wasting it on someone with an 80% lifelead makes it not free. it's not like it doesn't require any skill.
 

Scyther

Mortal Kombat-phile
Premium Supporter
Its your opinion that it makes fights more fun to watch and play. As it is my opinion that it isnt. Especially while spectating FB leave a bad taste more often than not, at least for me. So stop generalizing things.

It also doesnt matter if someone is winning by much or not, the fact that the player winning is put in an uncomfortable position for winning is not appealing to me, both as player and spectator.

Nobody making "much ado", just stating my opinion as you do yours. You like it, good for you. Enjoy it. I dont and even if i would win the next 1000 games in a row due to it i would still dislike it. Why is it so hard to understand that some people just dont like things you do like?
Cool.
 

grandabx

The Flameater
Your right to a degree. They have to balance hardcore vs accessibility. Either way someone is not going to be happy.
Accessibility comes from intuitive tutorials, controls and a lack of arbitrary elements (skill-floor). Fighting games have from the beginning been about two minds competing against each other with the goal of having players be the prime factor of the outcome through their hand/eye coordination and creativity (skill-ceiling). As soon as system mechanics start heavily assisting in the outcome, the game starts losing it's credibility-card.

99% of fighting game-makers do a garbage job of teaching the complete novice how and why things are and cut corners on details because of the philosophy of learning through "blind exploration". They'll instead add lazy mechanics that really don't teach players how to be more self-sufficient, but make them look more for games to give handouts (Blue Shells).

Illusion of progress mechanics (IOPMs) are the equivalent of corporate companies painting their walls a bright colors instead of dark ones because of the emotions they bring about. IOPM's are to bring about the emotions of "you're not that far behind". The problem is that it's not reality. The game is giving players a passing grade without any effort on their part. "No player left behind", programmed into the system.

There are also levels of IOPMs:

High (requires mostly just lost of stamina)
X-Factor
Fatal Blows
Rage

Mid (Are auto-moves, but require a finite resource)
Super Arts

Low (Manual use and require a finite resource)
OverDrive
Character Traits

It's like the old saying goes, give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

It's no different in anything competitive. Look at sports. athletes are constantly practicing. Sports all have their own unique audience and aren't trying to imitate one another. They work with their strengths and build on them. Fighting game's strengths are their creativity brought forth using limited tools. People play and spectate sports and fighters because they provide something the average person can't do. High IOPMs are conflicting with that strength.
 
The irony of this discussion is that, despite all the complaints relating FB's, these poor man's / modern-day casual's "supers" aren't very powerful anyway.

A mere 30~33% isn't very much in the context of the damage output of many far more spammable tools in 'Uppercut: The Game -- Chin Jab Edition' (example: down-2 = guaranteed 14%), and FB's are only allowed once per match, per successful use. Also, MK11's supers aren't anywhere as easy to YOLO as they were in previous games (against intermediately competent players and above, and discounting the really Wiitendo tier FB's, like Error Black's), due to their lack or start-up armor. Granted, those qualifiers do not factor in online latency -- from where (online) my Spidey senses tickle my testes that most of the FB hate stems from... Arguments that are often moot, seeing as, outside of point-n-click MMO's, online is little more than a shits n' giggles troll orgy (at the best of times).

HOWEVER, and having said all that, FB's have proved to be exactly what I imagined to be, the moment their new mechanics were revealed: an "epic" and "'kool" and "awesome" move for casuals to spam over and over, and rot brain cells to; while fighting purist are bored into gaming-induced comas. They're neither here nor there in their implementation: they're neither the tools they would otherwise be if they were meter dependant and/or more versatile and unique in application and/or more than one FB existed per char. and/or they acted as actual "desperation moves"; nor the comeback / "clutch" mechanic that they seem to loosely mimic.

To me, from the perspective of someone who was introduced to this genre in the early 90's, the Fatal Blows are a hodge-podge of old school ideas, smeared in modern-day "accessibility" mechanics -- producing a system that pleases the few, while frustrating the many. In this sense, MK11's supers are case in point for why input execution is so important in this genre of game: Unless execution is used to gate the more powerful abilities characters have, they will invariably feel cheap -- irrespective of how their damage output or activation parameters are tweaked. If the FB inputs were not universal, and their execution not all but non-existent -- instead, all different and in the vein of 654654 / 236236 / 21441236 -- they would:

1. not be as abuseable by lower level players and in a latency-affect environ

2. not come out instantly (*even at the highest level of play, it takes longer to input 624624 than a single button-press)

3. provide much more room for, not only diversity in their design/application and between the chars., but also in how they can be balanced -- example: more powerful FB's could have more arcane inputs and more stringent applications; less powerful ones, easier inputs and more liberal applications.

Of course, people can debate the whys and wherefores of what's the best way (if any) to implement supers in the modern-day, casual conscious fighting game, and no one would ever agree 100% with anyone (see: human nature inclined towards conflict). Though, I do believe that if FB's weren't so homogenised, nor as easy to pull off, they would become less frequent and, therefore, people less critical of them. But, within the severely limiting, casual pandering parameters of today's fighting game designs, game developers are hamstrung in how they can implement mechanics -- without fear of alienating casuals and, to a lesser degree, angering purists. Which, ultimately, results in them displeasing almost everyone.

To NRS's credit, they do include an "alternate" (nice PC euphemism there, Ed!) control scheme (inputs that read 1, 3, 7 and 9 diagonals), in addition to a few other nice control options that the more 'pro' players can use to customise their gameplay experience with. I raise this point because this same system could be used to serve as a gating mechanism for the game's more powerful abilities -- in the same way the button-hold option for Krushing Blows is something that (I'd guess) most casuals would not even be aware of, let alone use, much less be offended by (as opposed how hurt their feelings became by the proposed unique amplify inputs scheme that NRS recanted on). That is, an anodyne tool that does not require the nerfing of the game into the realm of cookie-cutter fighter, nor obtrudes "elitism" into casuals' play experience.

However, to promote the use of these more 'exacting' control schemes, there would have to be incentives tied to it, such as: more advantageous frame data, more i-frames, better versatility / combo application, better damage output etc.. This could work like the difficulty options in actions games: upon selecting either input scheme for Fatal Blows, players are notified that they will get whatever damage / frame / combo advantage (or disadvantage) that is relative to the control scheme they select. In effect, this the same as the carrot-stick systems action games, where notifications appear when selecting game difficulty, that notify what content can and cannot be accessed--relative to what difficult players go with. This simple system would gently encourage casuals to graduate from their indulgent-centric ways, into a more reward orientated maturity... And, of import, without attacking their fragile egos. So, this system could have a three-pronged positive effect:

1. It would help fix the game's more powerful abilities (or at least give devs more balancing tools to do so)

2. Encourage players to better themselves (something that NRS claim to promote via their lauded tutorial modes etc.)

3. Increase the replay value for those who are otherwise prone to moving to the next shiny thing once their "Achievement" OCD is satisfied

I mean, they could rework MK11's super mechanics wholesale -- because there is plenty of room for improvement -- and still not please everyone... Which is something NRS never would or could devote the resources to doing post-release, anyway. However, if they simply tweak the parameters of the existing system, then tie whatever advantages / disadvantages of the FB's to the control scheme selected, they kill two buzzards with one stone:

1. They encourage people to get better at fighting games (as opposed to forcing the genre to condescend / undermine itself to the lowest common denominator demographics)

2. Go some way to fixing what's an increasingly loathed system.


tl;dr version:
Here's the real problem with the Fatal Blows (and every other balancing act between the casuals consumer and the fighting game purist):
"S-s-s-s-sorry, guys... But, I h-h-h-h-have to get a little fighting gaming nerdie for a few seconds."
-- Ed Boon (*at the stage reveal of Mortal Kombat 11, Jan. 2019, upon interrupting the crowd's raucous cheers to MK11's gore parade trailer)
 

ChaosTheory

A fat woman came into the shoe store today...
Players will get more aware and familiarize how to approach when a Fatal Blow is in play. That'll alleviate a lot of this early getting-randomed-out feel...

That said, I haven't liked this concept since I saw it on paper and I still don't prefer it. I think MK had a good system with MK9's meter and shouldn't have ditched it.

X-Rays were like a comeback factor, but one you had to actively pursue them and bypass other meter use. I like that.

Personal taste. I didn't like SF4's Revenge meter, either. But I liked Super meter with multiple functions to consider and manage.

Like if FB's cost all four bars of meter.
 

grandabx

The Flameater
"Yea you are right one wrong move and you might die without being able to use it, but one wrong move from your opponent and you might win the game with it even before your opponent has access to his."

Literally just described the reasoning behind the FB mechanic, and why it makes tense fights even more tense, and thus more fun to both play and watch.

And again, if you're "one wrong move" from losing to a FB...you weren't really winning all that much to begin with. It's not like you were dominating with an 80% health lead, and then suddenly lost due to a raw FB.

Much ado about nothing.
lmao!!! I'm dying over here!!

What kind of logic is this? I need to see the people making these comments. This is as casual-pandering as it gets. Artificial tensity is all FBs are. I rather someone win with their own skill. The talk on this coddling mechanic is never going away. I deeply promise you that.

The same people needing a mechanic to stay close are saying "if you were good, you wouldn't let it hit you". Absolutely comical.

Post your picture please. I'll pay for it.
 
My friend was a d4 away from flawlessing me.

Τhen Ι AMP slided him to KB in the corner, connected a small bnb, then FB armor through him and I won.

I made a comeback from my nearly guaranteed flawless loss, with a sum of ~65% damage that I didn't even work for.
 

Scyther

Mortal Kombat-phile
Premium Supporter
lmao!!! I'm dying over here!!

What kind of logic is this? I need to see the people making these comments. This is as casual-pandering as it gets. Artificial tensity is all FBs are. I rather someone win with their own skill. The talk on this coddling mechanic is never going away. I deeply promise you that.

The same people needing a mechanic to stay close are saying "if you were good, you wouldn't let it hit you". Absolutely comical.

Post your picture please. I'll pay for it.
Show me on the doll where the Fatal Blow touched you. It's okay, you're among friends here...
14570



My friend was a d4 away from flawlessing me.

Τhen Ι AMP slided him to KB in the corner, connected a small bnb, then FB armor through him and I won.

I made a comeback from my nearly guaranteed flawless loss, with a sum of ~65% damage that I didn't even work for.
r/thathappened :rolleyes:

Dude, if you're going to tell a lie to support your argument, at least make the lie somewhat believable.

You expect someone to actually believe you spent the first ~30-60 seconds getting your ass summarily handed to you, not landing a single retaliatory blow during that time, and then just as your opponent is on the verge of landing the last blow needed to remove your 1% of remaining health, you miraculously:

A). Suddenly connected 3 amplified slides (the requirement for SZ's KB, assuming we're talking about SZ here).

B). Managed to avoid being touched even once by your opponent during this time, despite the fact he or she was just mopping the floor with you without any form of resistance from you.

Did everyone clap afterwards?

And, let's assume this isn't a lie (a big assumption, btw). You then have the audacity to imply your comeback and victory-steal wasn't due to your Bnb, the KB, that your opponent's thumbs suddenly fell off, or the laughable notion that you didn't get hit during all this...it was the FB that stole the victory and gave you the edge you didn't "deserve".

Wow...just wow. Cool story, bruh XD
 

Rozalin1780

Good? Bad? I'm the one with the fans
r/thathappened :rolleyes:

Dude, if you're going to tell a lie to support your argument, at least make the lie somewhat believable.

You expect someone to actually believe you spent the first ~30-60 seconds getting your ass summarily handed to you, not landing a single retaliatory blow during that time, and then just as your opponent is on the verge of landing the last blow needed to remove your 1% of remaining health, you miraculously:

A). Suddenly connected 3 amplified slides (the requirement for SZ's KB, assuming we're talking about SZ here).

B). Managed to avoid being touched even once by your opponent during this time, despite the fact he or she was just mopping the floor with you without any form of resistance from you.

Did everyone clap afterwards?

And, let's assume this isn't a lie (a big assumption, btw). You then have the audacity to imply your comeback and victory-steal wasn't due to your Bnb, the KB, that your opponent's thumbs suddenly fell off, or the laughable notion that you didn't get hit during all this...it was the FB that stole the victory and gave you the edge you didn't "deserve".

Wow...just wow. Cool story, bruh XD
You forgot about the part where he armored through an attack to land his FB... at 1% health... :rolleyes:
 

HeavyNorse

F*ck Mournful
If you went from almost getting a flawless, and your opponent had only 1% HP, yet made a comeback and won the game, your opponent did a great job exploiting an opening, and you were bad for letting him.
 

Scyther

Mortal Kombat-phile
Premium Supporter
If you went from almost getting a flawless, and your opponent had only 1% HP, yet made a comeback and won the game, your opponent did a great job exploiting an opening, and you were bad for letting him.
I mean, seriously, the only way I see this happening is if:

1: The dude about to get a flawless suddenly had a stroke and was twitching on the ground instead of actually playing, or just decided to roll his face across the controller at the end (even then, you'd think they'd land a lucky shot doing that lol).

2: The mechanics of the game suddenly changed (as pointed out by @Rozalin1780).

3: @EarlyReflections is lying his ass off.

I think the answer is obvious XD