What's new

Fatal Blows must be changed

  • Thread starter Deleted member 61096
  • Start date

Scyther

Mortal Kombat-phile
Its your opinion that it makes fights more fun to watch and play. As it is my opinion that it isnt. Especially while spectating FB leave a bad taste more often than not, at least for me. So stop generalizing things.

It also doesnt matter if someone is winning by much or not, the fact that the player winning is put in an uncomfortable position for winning is not appealing to me, both as player and spectator.

Nobody making "much ado", just stating my opinion as you do yours. You like it, good for you. Enjoy it. I dont and even if i would win the next 1000 games in a row due to it i would still dislike it. Why is it so hard to understand that some people just dont like things you do like?
Cool.
 

grandabx

The Flameater
Your right to a degree. They have to balance hardcore vs accessibility. Either way someone is not going to be happy.
Accessibility comes from intuitive tutorials, controls and a lack of arbitrary elements (skill-floor). Fighting games have from the beginning been about two minds competing against each other with the goal of having players be the prime factor of the outcome through their hand/eye coordination and creativity (skill-ceiling). As soon as system mechanics start heavily assisting in the outcome, the game starts losing it's credibility-card.

99% of fighting game-makers do a garbage job of teaching the complete novice how and why things are and cut corners on details because of the philosophy of learning through "blind exploration". They'll instead add lazy mechanics that really don't teach players how to be more self-sufficient, but make them look more for games to give handouts (Blue Shells).

Illusion of progress mechanics (IOPMs) are the equivalent of corporate companies painting their walls a bright colors instead of dark ones because of the emotions they bring about. IOPM's are to bring about the emotions of "you're not that far behind". The problem is that it's not reality. The game is giving players a passing grade without any effort on their part. "No player left behind", programmed into the system.

There are also levels of IOPMs:

High (requires mostly just lost of stamina)
X-Factor
Fatal Blows
Rage

Mid (Are auto-moves, but require a finite resource)
Super Arts

Low (Manual use and require a finite resource)
OverDrive
Character Traits

It's like the old saying goes, give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime.

It's no different in anything competitive. Look at sports. athletes are constantly practicing. Sports all have their own unique audience and aren't trying to imitate one another. They work with their strengths and build on them. Fighting game's strengths are their creativity brought forth using limited tools. People play and spectate sports and fighters because they provide something the average person can't do. High IOPMs are conflicting with that strength.
 
The irony of this discussion is that, despite all the complaints relating FB's, these poor man's / modern-day casual's "supers" aren't very powerful anyway.

A mere 30~33% isn't very much in the context of the damage output of many far more spammable tools in 'Uppercut: The Game -- Chin Jab Edition' (example: down-2 = guaranteed 14%), and FB's are only allowed once per match, per successful use. Also, MK11's supers aren't anywhere as easy to YOLO as they were in previous games (against intermediately competent players and above, and discounting the really Wiitendo tier FB's, like Error Black's), due to their lack or start-up armor. Granted, those qualifiers do not factor in online latency -- from where (online) my Spidey senses tickle my testes that most of the FB hate stems from... Arguments that are often moot, seeing as, outside of point-n-click MMO's, online is little more than a shits n' giggles troll orgy (at the best of times).

HOWEVER, and having said all that, FB's have proved to be exactly what I imagined to be, the moment their new mechanics were revealed: an "epic" and "'kool" and "awesome" move for casuals to spam over and over, and rot brain cells to; while fighting purist are bored into gaming-induced comas. They're neither here nor there in their implementation: they're neither the tools they would otherwise be if they were meter dependant and/or more versatile and unique in application and/or more than one FB existed per char. and/or they acted as actual "desperation moves"; nor the comeback / "clutch" mechanic that they seem to loosely mimic.

To me, from the perspective of someone who was introduced to this genre in the early 90's, the Fatal Blows are a hodge-podge of old school ideas, smeared in modern-day "accessibility" mechanics -- producing a system that pleases the few, while frustrating the many. In this sense, MK11's supers are case in point for why input execution is so important in this genre of game: Unless execution is used to gate the more powerful abilities characters have, they will invariably feel cheap -- irrespective of how their damage output or activation parameters are tweaked. If the FB inputs were not universal, and their execution not all but non-existent -- instead, all different and in the vein of 654654 / 236236 / 21441236 -- they would:

1. not be as abuseable by lower level players and in a latency-affect environ

2. not come out instantly (*even at the highest level of play, it takes longer to input 624624 than a single button-press)

3. provide much more room for, not only diversity in their design/application and between the chars., but also in how they can be balanced -- example: more powerful FB's could have more arcane inputs and more stringent applications; less powerful ones, easier inputs and more liberal applications.

Of course, people can debate the whys and wherefores of what's the best way (if any) to implement supers in the modern-day, casual conscious fighting game, and no one would ever agree 100% with anyone (see: human nature inclined towards conflict). Though, I do believe that if FB's weren't so homogenised, nor as easy to pull off, they would become less frequent and, therefore, people less critical of them. But, within the severely limiting, casual pandering parameters of today's fighting game designs, game developers are hamstrung in how they can implement mechanics -- without fear of alienating casuals and, to a lesser degree, angering purists. Which, ultimately, results in them displeasing almost everyone.

To NRS's credit, they do include an "alternate" (nice PC euphemism there, Ed!) control scheme (inputs that read 1, 3, 7 and 9 diagonals), in addition to a few other nice control options that the more 'pro' players can use to customise their gameplay experience with. I raise this point because this same system could be used to serve as a gating mechanism for the game's more powerful abilities -- in the same way the button-hold option for Krushing Blows is something that (I'd guess) most casuals would not even be aware of, let alone use, much less be offended by (as opposed how hurt their feelings became by the proposed unique amplify inputs scheme that NRS recanted on). That is, an anodyne tool that does not require the nerfing of the game into the realm of cookie-cutter fighter, nor obtrudes "elitism" into casuals' play experience.

However, to promote the use of these more 'exacting' control schemes, there would have to be incentives tied to it, such as: more advantageous frame data, more i-frames, better versatility / combo application, better damage output etc.. This could work like the difficulty options in actions games: upon selecting either input scheme for Fatal Blows, players are notified that they will get whatever damage / frame / combo advantage (or disadvantage) that is relative to the control scheme they select. In effect, this the same as the carrot-stick systems action games, where notifications appear when selecting game difficulty, that notify what content can and cannot be accessed--relative to what difficult players go with. This simple system would gently encourage casuals to graduate from their indulgent-centric ways, into a more reward orientated maturity... And, of import, without attacking their fragile egos. So, this system could have a three-pronged positive effect:

1. It would help fix the game's more powerful abilities (or at least give devs more balancing tools to do so)

2. Encourage players to better themselves (something that NRS claim to promote via their lauded tutorial modes etc.)

3. Increase the replay value for those who are otherwise prone to moving to the next shiny thing once their "Achievement" OCD is satisfied

I mean, they could rework MK11's super mechanics wholesale -- because there is plenty of room for improvement -- and still not please everyone... Which is something NRS never would or could devote the resources to doing post-release, anyway. However, if they simply tweak the parameters of the existing system, then tie whatever advantages / disadvantages of the FB's to the control scheme selected, they kill two buzzards with one stone:

1. They encourage people to get better at fighting games (as opposed to forcing the genre to condescend / undermine itself to the lowest common denominator demographics)

2. Go some way to fixing what's an increasingly loathed system.


tl;dr version:
Here's the real problem with the Fatal Blows (and every other balancing act between the casuals consumer and the fighting game purist):
"S-s-s-s-sorry, guys... But, I h-h-h-h-have to get a little fighting gaming nerdie for a few seconds."
-- Ed Boon (*at the stage reveal of Mortal Kombat 11, Jan. 2019, upon interrupting the crowd's raucous cheers to MK11's gore parade trailer)
 

ChaosTheory

A fat woman came into the shoe store today...
Players will get more aware and familiarize how to approach when a Fatal Blow is in play. That'll alleviate a lot of this early getting-randomed-out feel...

That said, I haven't liked this concept since I saw it on paper and I still don't prefer it. I think MK had a good system with MK9's meter and shouldn't have ditched it.

X-Rays were like a comeback factor, but one you had to actively pursue them and bypass other meter use. I like that.

Personal taste. I didn't like SF4's Revenge meter, either. But I liked Super meter with multiple functions to consider and manage.

Like if FB's cost all four bars of meter.
 

grandabx

The Flameater
"Yea you are right one wrong move and you might die without being able to use it, but one wrong move from your opponent and you might win the game with it even before your opponent has access to his."

Literally just described the reasoning behind the FB mechanic, and why it makes tense fights even more tense, and thus more fun to both play and watch.

And again, if you're "one wrong move" from losing to a FB...you weren't really winning all that much to begin with. It's not like you were dominating with an 80% health lead, and then suddenly lost due to a raw FB.

Much ado about nothing.
lmao!!! I'm dying over here!!

What kind of logic is this? I need to see the people making these comments. This is as casual-pandering as it gets. Artificial tensity is all FBs are. I rather someone win with their own skill. The talk on this coddling mechanic is never going away. I deeply promise you that.

The same people needing a mechanic to stay close are saying "if you were good, you wouldn't let it hit you". Absolutely comical.

Post your picture please. I'll pay for it.
 
My friend was a d4 away from flawlessing me.

Τhen Ι AMP slided him to KB in the corner, connected a small bnb, then FB armor through him and I won.

I made a comeback from my nearly guaranteed flawless loss, with a sum of ~65% damage that I didn't even work for.
 

Scyther

Mortal Kombat-phile
lmao!!! I'm dying over here!!

What kind of logic is this? I need to see the people making these comments. This is as casual-pandering as it gets. Artificial tensity is all FBs are. I rather someone win with their own skill. The talk on this coddling mechanic is never going away. I deeply promise you that.

The same people needing a mechanic to stay close are saying "if you were good, you wouldn't let it hit you". Absolutely comical.

Post your picture please. I'll pay for it.
Show me on the doll where the Fatal Blow touched you. It's okay, you're among friends here...
14570



My friend was a d4 away from flawlessing me.

Τhen Ι AMP slided him to KB in the corner, connected a small bnb, then FB armor through him and I won.

I made a comeback from my nearly guaranteed flawless loss, with a sum of ~65% damage that I didn't even work for.
r/thathappened :rolleyes:

Dude, if you're going to tell a lie to support your argument, at least make the lie somewhat believable.

You expect someone to actually believe you spent the first ~30-60 seconds getting your ass summarily handed to you, not landing a single retaliatory blow during that time, and then just as your opponent is on the verge of landing the last blow needed to remove your 1% of remaining health, you miraculously:

A). Suddenly connected 3 amplified slides (the requirement for SZ's KB, assuming we're talking about SZ here).

B). Managed to avoid being touched even once by your opponent during this time, despite the fact he or she was just mopping the floor with you without any form of resistance from you.

Did everyone clap afterwards?

And, let's assume this isn't a lie (a big assumption, btw). You then have the audacity to imply your comeback and victory-steal wasn't due to your Bnb, the KB, that your opponent's thumbs suddenly fell off, or the laughable notion that you didn't get hit during all this...it was the FB that stole the victory and gave you the edge you didn't "deserve".

Wow...just wow. Cool story, bruh XD
 

Rozalin1780

Good? Bad? I'm the one with the fans
r/thathappened :rolleyes:

Dude, if you're going to tell a lie to support your argument, at least make the lie somewhat believable.

You expect someone to actually believe you spent the first ~30-60 seconds getting your ass summarily handed to you, not landing a single retaliatory blow during that time, and then just as your opponent is on the verge of landing the last blow needed to remove your 1% of remaining health, you miraculously:

A). Suddenly connected 3 amplified slides (the requirement for SZ's KB, assuming we're talking about SZ here).

B). Managed to avoid being touched even once by your opponent during this time, despite the fact he or she was just mopping the floor with you without any form of resistance from you.

Did everyone clap afterwards?

And, let's assume this isn't a lie (a big assumption, btw). You then have the audacity to imply your comeback and victory-steal wasn't due to your Bnb, the KB, that your opponent's thumbs suddenly fell off, or the laughable notion that you didn't get hit during all this...it was the FB that stole the victory and gave you the edge you didn't "deserve".

Wow...just wow. Cool story, bruh XD
You forgot about the part where he armored through an attack to land his FB... at 1% health... :rolleyes:
 

HeavyNorse

#BlackLivesMatter
If you went from almost getting a flawless, and your opponent had only 1% HP, yet made a comeback and won the game, your opponent did a great job exploiting an opening, and you were bad for letting him.
 

Scyther

Mortal Kombat-phile
If you went from almost getting a flawless, and your opponent had only 1% HP, yet made a comeback and won the game, your opponent did a great job exploiting an opening, and you were bad for letting him.
I mean, seriously, the only way I see this happening is if:

1: The dude about to get a flawless suddenly had a stroke and was twitching on the ground instead of actually playing, or just decided to roll his face across the controller at the end (even then, you'd think they'd land a lucky shot doing that lol).

2: The mechanics of the game suddenly changed (as pointed out by @Rozalin1780).

3: @EarlyReflections is lying his ass off.

I think the answer is obvious XD
 

HeavyNorse

#BlackLivesMatter
I mean, seriously, the only way I see this happening is if:

1: The dude about to get a flawless suddenly had a stroke and was twitching on the ground instead of actually playing, or just decided to roll his or her face across the controller at the end (even then, you'd think they'd land a lucky shot doing that lol).

2: The mechanics of the game suddenly changed (as pointed out by @Rozalin1780).

3: @EarlyReflections is lying his ass off.

I think the answer is obvious XD
Everyone can get hesitations or distractions where something like this could happen. But those are human mistakes. Blaming the game or the mechanics of the game is projecting. Because honestly, it's his own fault. If it is indeed true.
 

Scyther

Mortal Kombat-phile
Everyone can get hesitations or distractions where something like this could happen. But those are human mistakes. Blaming the game or the mechanics of the game is projecting. Because honestly, it's his own fault. If it is indeed true.
This is true. It is indeed possible, but the odds of this occurring are extremely slim. The entire dynamic of the match would need to change, where the person dominating suddenly can't even get a poke in against the person who seemingly doesn't know what a game pad is.

I've seen reversals happen. Hell, I've gone from winning a match to losing it (FB involved or not), but I've yet to encounter a situation where I'm on the verge of flawless victory while my opponent is near death. At the very least, I've managed to mash out a lucky poke and secure victory. Nor have I ever been able to armor through an attack with just 1% health remaining. That particular detail just isn't possible given the rules that govern the game lol

But yeah, even if this did happen, then it's on the opponent for failing to secure the victory, and on the losing opponent for making a supreme comeback where the FB played only a peripheral role at the end.

Seems like the FB mechanic worked as intended in this magical, highly unlikely scenario.

And again, if @EarlyReflections wanted to really support his argument against FB, he could have used a slightly less transparent lie. Even just a little less, and he'd been fine XD
 

Osagri

Fear the blade of Osh-Tekk
One thing I don't like is if I win round 1 without using my Fatal Blow, I feel like I'm at a significant advantage in round 2. If my opponent is within Fatal Blow kill range there's no reason not to throw it out from a safe distance. If it hits, game over, if not, I'll get it back to try again. This is supposed to be a comeback mechanic mind you. Or if I land 1 hit I can hit confirm into FB to take 40% of your life and the match. Normally to do this I'd need 1 bar of attack meter and my opponent would need to be unable to breakaway, so meter management is gone out the window.

Also, I don't even like how my opponent has to fight when I have FB (as Noob). They're afraid to move and press buttons and shit.
Some things make little fucking sense, indeed. I mean look at the KB requirements for Johnny and then compare them to Erron Black. Also, his Fatal Blow: full screen like Geras. It's just stupid. Full screen FB shouldn't even be a thing imo but if you do have them, make sure the startup is much longer or add more recovery to them so they can be properly punished on whiff AND block.
Geras FB aint full screen
 
No. & No.

Fatal Blows are fine. You get ONE. If you die to it the match was close anyway. They are blockable and easy to read. And no shortcutting the animation the violence and gore are the heart and soul of MK. If you can't handle a 5 to 10 second animation maybe you need to see a therapist for adhd. If it makes you mad, you can get some anger management.

It's not healthy to be this sensitive.
thank you someone understands
 

grandabx

The Flameater
now you are just salty. it's not a blue shell.
It absolutely is a Blue Shell.

It's designed to assist the losing player make a comeback without any effort. The requirements are to only make enough mistakes that put you at 30% or lower life (translation: not doing your job). When close to losing in Mario Kart, the game make it a lot easier to receive a Blue Shell. No player left behind baked into the system.

It would be better to give character's special attacks unique attributes during that period (30% or lower health) for the cost of their full offensive or defensive meter (depending on the character). Which after activating, goes into slow regeneration. Some examples:

Baraka - non-projectile attacks all do bleed damage and cause faster stamina depletion (can't kill on its own, but places opponent on 1%).

Sub Zero - Ice projectiles cause longer stun and freezes other projectiles that then have a freezing attribute if opponent touches them unblocked.

Scorpion - Gains ability to combo into spear and teleport from a lot more attacks and unblocked spears causes fire DOT.

Jade - Glow activates faster and its duration is twice as long. All of her projectiles move faster and are multi-hitting.

Kotal Kahn - 4 attacks have full armor. Can have any number of the same type of totem on screen and they stay on screen no matter what happens.
 
It absolutely is a Blue Shell.

It's designed to assist the losing player make a comeback without any effort. The requirements are to only make enough mistakes that put you at 30% or lower life (translation: not doing your job). When close to losing in Mario Kart, the game make it a lot easier to receive a Blue Shell. No player left behind baked into the system.

It would be better to give character's special attacks unique attributes during that period (30% or lower health) for the cost of their full offensive or defensive meter (depending on the character). Which after activating, goes into slow regeneration. Some examples:

Baraka - non-projectile attacks all do bleed damage and cause faster stamina depletion (can't kill on its own, but places opponent on 1%).

Sub Zero - Ice projectiles cause longer stun and freezes other projectiles that then have a freezing attribute if opponent touches them unblocked.

Scorpion - Gains ability to combo into spear and teleport from a lot more attacks and unblocked spears causes fire DOT.

Jade - Glow activates faster and its duration is twice as long. All of her projectiles move faster and are multi-hitting.

Kotal Kahn - 4 attacks have full armor. Can have any number of the same type of totem on screen and they stay on screen no matter what happens.
It's not without effort when i use a FB i combo into for way more damage, you might be thinking of yourself than other players