Discussion CrazyFinger's New and Improved Tier List (Now Completely In Order!)

[thlityoursloat]

It comes down to his lack of tools in the neutral hurts him a lot in MU's. Before the patch Cryomancer had some decent staggers, had insane damage and could in general, play his game to a fairly decent degree (they didn't need to change him at all to be good in this patch imo) but now he's got worse frames on block and is generally a lot less safe. Granted the man can still mix you to death but it's really that lack of neutral that makes me feel like he's that low.

His neutral is fine considering his broke mix up game, he runs fast, has a long range D4, has a 12f advancing mid, broke jumpins and a slide that's safe on shift.
Meanwhile Bo exists... -40 belly bash.

 

[Trauma_and_Pain]

Wrestler Jax and War God both seem to belong in T2 on this list instead of T3. And Drunken Master in T4.

 

[CrazyFingers]

You don't have any explanation as to why they are there to begin with so the onus is kind of on you to give an explanation first mate

Also, if you couldn't handle doing one with 100 variations... then don't do it. It doesn't mean I'm gonna think it makes your list as good as the guy who just but got the order right... (IMO)

Also, are you seriously basing the entirety of the tier list on the very bottom? Which is a super small portion of characters. Because honestly that doesn't make sense to base the entirety on me putting a few characters you think are stronger in a lower tier.

 

[CrazyFingers]

You don't have any explanation as to why they are there to begin with so the onus is kind of on you to give an explanation first mate

Also, if you couldn't handle doing one with 100 variations... then don't do it. It doesn't mean I'm gonna think it makes your list as good as the guy who just but got the order right... (IMO)

AND you say I don't have an explanation but for the bottom tier (the tier you seem to have such a problem with) I completely explained myself earlier in the comments. Just because you don't feel like looking back and reading doesn't mean I didn't explain myself

 

[God Confirm]

Also, are you seriously basing the entirety of the tier list on the very bottom? Which is a super small portion of characters. Because honestly that doesn't make sense to base the entirety on me putting a few characters you think are stronger in a lower tier.

Because if someone is susceptible to being swayed by the downplay, or just using it to fill gaps in their knowledge, will immediately become apparent by looking at the bottom tiers not the top ones that everyone is well aware of. I ended up reading through the entire thing btw, but until we make it past highly questionable things like why Venomous is a full tier below Brood Mother, then I don't think it's worth getting into. You really think the Krawler is better than all that extra combo damage, and dot's from so many buttons and the 14% throw? You really think the Krawler is better than Tarkatan having one of the best mids and best armors in the entire game?

AND you say I don't have an explanation but for the bottom tier (the tier you seem to have such a problem with) I completely explained myself earlier in the comments. Just because you don't feel like looking back and reading doesn't mean I didn't explain myself

i read the thread and didn't see it. It's possible I missed it we're 6 pages deep now, go ahead and link what you are referring to tho so I know

 

[Pudding&Pie]

i think taked shirai ryu should be higher

 

[CrazyFingers]

My explanation for the placements of multiple characters

Lasher has more than just "Oh look i'm jumping all over the place!" he has everything that makes Takeda a solid character, he has good damage, some characters can not handle DF1 like AT ALL and it is special cancelable into a full combo. You HAVE to respect the space that this character controls which is damn near the whole screen. There is literally no character in the whole game that has normals that can control the space that Lasher does. You talk about having to play the character's game, that's exactly what Lasher does to you, he forces you to play his near full screen footsies game that most of the cast can't answer.


Hellfire WOULD be in Tier 1 if his lack of good defense was made up for in a significant way. He's got the setplay yea but in some matchups, his armor being the way it is makes for some TERRIBLE times. He is on the very cusp of Tier 1 (he's pretty much the best character in Tier 2)

Ethereal could be Tier 1, i'll have to look at that.

Konjurer is NOT trash tier. Holy crap. Okay, ignore the SOMETIMES having whiffing issues on facehugger (they aren't extremely common and are only common in the places they should be, jumping and low profiling.) he has solid space control, some quite disgusting setplay and just really good buttons that Alien has. There is absolutely no way in hell that this character is Tier 4.

Smoke suffers from a lot of people just not playing the matchup right. They let B2 walk all over them from fullscreen when there's plenty of people that can answer it. Smoke bomb on block isn't blown up nearly as much as it should be. Don't get me wrong, Smoke is dumb and super good but I don't think he's QUITE among the best in the game.

Cyrax having good setplay but only okay neutral (yes it's only okay, it's not complete trash but we can't ignore the problems with it, I should know, Leatherface has the same problems but worse) makes him struggle in a good amount of matchups (Mileena, Smoke, Liu Kang) All in all, the character has potential and I am 100% behind the "cyrax isn't trash" train but Tier 2 is a bit optimistic.

Low Pokes into special, while cancerous as hell, isn't going to bring Hat Trick to Tier 2. At the end of the day, it's a gimmick on block. His oki is pretty good but in the neutral he doesn't have a ton of meterless tools to help him out like Tempest and Buzzsaw have. In the corner he certainly becomes scary after a knockdown but we can't ignore his problems.

Metallic has Tremor's solid tools and loops you back into needing to eat those tools with restand. That's most certainly on par with Flex and IA Quake imo. Also huge damage, like, unbelievably huge damage, for no meter.

Unbreakable doesn't have that many risks. Literally he has two. B2 and Slide. Everything else is safe, plus, or neutral on block. He can slow down the game and make people think twice on oki. He also has the only one bar armored launcher which means he has the best armored move in the game (that isn't an over-exaggeration, there's a reason NRS took them out of the game)

Warrior has dirt, but the only problem with Warrior (and it's a fucking big one) is that his dependence upon meter is possibly the most out of any character in this game. He is absolutely USELESS without meter and that wouldn't be so bad if he had an actually good way to build that meter. He's never close enough to actually get anything off of his plus frames. The only thing he has going for him in the neutral is good armor. Which is fine for the most part but that armor no longer launches, which is a huge deal considering he actually just lived and died off of counter poking with EX Flip and trying to get you in the loop off of that. I can take another look at him but he honestly just doesn't get to play MKX for more than half the match.

FINALLY! Sorcerer. Now I know I said bad defense was holding back Hellfire but here's the thing. Sorcerer has way more to make up for that than Hellfire does. Sorcerer forces you to not have breaker throughout the entire match. If he lands one hit on you, meterlessly he gets a free purple rune and just strips you of your meter entirely. Secondly, armor rune IS THE SINGLE BEST MOVE IN THE GAME. Full screen, pretty much only one character in the game has a consistent answer to it (full auto) in the corner GOOD FUCKING LUCK. It's worse than Crystaline being in your face. Some characters have literally 0 answers to it in the corner other than just guess 10 times in a row. You can only guess right so many times. You say Cyrax has the best setplay in the game, Sorcerer is right next to that. Not only that but outside of knockdown situations, Quan's defense is actually pretty good. Backdash is godlike, pokes are really solid, his ONLY problem is on knockdown. That's his literal only problem. Everywhere else he is air tight.

I will preface this by saying, Inferno and Stunt Double could be higher (Inferno has a good base toolset and Stunt Double isn't complete trash possibly) I'll go character by character for ya.

Lackey
So what can I say about Lackey. He's got meh armor. He has no great plus frames. Sure he has good buttons and good damage but he has so many anti-synergistic things in his toolset it's baffling. He is clearly supposed to be up close and personal, yet his command grab throws the opponent full screen. Basically what this comes down to is that, Lackey doesn't have the correct tools to be playing this game. He has a great basic toolset that has potential to be a real formidable force in this game but his dirt just isn't strong enough to compete which causes him to suffer in a good amount of matchups.

Warrior
See my explanation earlier in this thread. Also, just because you have a safe wakeup doesn't mean you aren't trash. That notion is not logical.

Marksman/Outlaw
Outlaw is a garbage fire. Marksman is a slightly less hot garbage fire. They have gaps everywhere. One of them is unsafe as hell, the other one relies too much upon stamina to make himself safe which in turn makes him unsafe for a large amount of the match. Marksman's "zoning" is trash, Outlaw gets zoned out absurdly easily. The character has one okay mid and okay damage. His mixups are laughable (granted, i guarantee you everyone on of you has been hit by the new slow overhead at least 10 times if you've played against the character enough) They just don't have any good or even decent tools to be competing in the game.

Heavy Weapons
Oh boy. The odd one out of the Jax variations. He got hit, absurdly hard by the stamina changes. He lost his easy midscreen hitconfirms and is now having to be reliant on either not run canceling for his hitconfirms or having to link into S3 which is a link that is so tight it makes coals into diamonds. And his "pressure" is the worst of the three variations. Granted he can mix you and cancel pokes into specials and make you respect his stuff with staggers but like...he has terrible armor, he doesn't have the purple wave to help with his mind games. He gets zoned out. Any bad matchup that the other two have is increased by a ton on Heavy Weapons. The character is just bad.

Pretty Lady
The character that I am definitely most qualified to talk about in Tier 4. Pretty Lady is a zoner with some pretty bad projectiles. Every saw has terrible recovery frames on whiff so you jump one saw and you get in almost for free. His up close game is pretty bad considering his lack of mids and his lack of good follow up to his frame trap with EX Up saw. He has terrible whiffing issues on almost half the cast. So basically what you have is a zoner who can't zone as well as the other zoners in the game and doesnt have an up close game to compensate for it. It's just a mess.

Venomous
Venomous is weird. This is a chip/tick damage character...who's chip damage is unsafe. Venomous has some good armor and some good damage sure, however, the issues that plague d'vorah are all there and Venomous has little to nothing to make up for that. It's basically variationless d'vorah with a little more damage and a decent armored move. Very lack luster.

Tarkatan
This character got gutted. When patch day came, I figured he might be like mid tier afterwards but nope, this character is just a flaming pile now. He is completely unsafe on everything he does (EVERYTHING) He just has way too much risk with very little reward. He's just a bad design with TERRIBLE frame data now. Poor Baraka.

Kenjutsu
This one won't take much to explain. His push is bad. His armor is bad. He's got 50/50's but one half is non-hitconfirmable and unsafe and the other one is harder to hit confirm and is unsafe if not hitconfirmed. He's got the same whiff recovery problems the other two have but not the same things to make up for it *shrug*

 

[CrazyFingers]

Because if someone is susceptible to being swayed by the downplay, or just using it to fill gaps in their knowledge, will immediately become apparent by looking at the bottom tiers not the top ones that everyone is well aware of. I ended up reading through the entire thing btw, but until we make it past highly questionable things like why Venomous is a full tier below Brood Mother, then I don't think it's worth getting into. You really think the Krawler is better than all that extra combo damage, and dot's from so many buttons and the 14% throw? You really think the Krawler is better than Tarkatan having one of the best mids and best armors in the entire game?


i read the thread and didn't see it. It's possible I missed it we're 6 pages deep now, go ahead and link what you are referring to tho so I know

Also the implication that I'm using the people on TYM who complained about their character to fill in my "gaps of knowledge" is frankly insulting. Who does that apply to? Tarkatan who is actually bad now or Venomous who I said could be better than where I placed her? Or was it some other character that I definitely have no clue what I'm talking about so I went the ideas of the masses because I definitely didn't use my own fucking brain.

 

[God Confirm]

Well Brood Mother is mentioned absolutely nowhere in your explanations so I guess I'll wait

Also the implication that I'm using the people on TYM who complained about their character to fill in my "gaps of knowledge" is frankly insulting. Who does that apply to? Tarkatan who is actually bad now or Venomous who I said could be better than where I placed her? Or was it some other character that I definitely have no clue what I'm talking about so I went the ideas of the masses because I definitely didn't use my own fucking brain.

It's just how it reads when you have legit flatout bad characters, sitting an entire tier over still playable were nerfed most recently and because of their larger communities got hit by the saltbus and spread all through the forums. Or, if you came to all those same conclusions entirely of your own, then that just makes this the saltiest tier list I've ever seen... I led with the nice one. Just being honest not tearing it up for no reason, don't be insulted mate I'm just saying I just see no rhyme or reason to so many choices other than "in order of most bitched about" haha

 

[CrazyFingers]

Well Brood Mother is mentioned absolutely nowhere in your explanations so I guess I'll wait



It's just how it reads when you have legit flatout bad characters, sitting an entire tier over still playable were nerfed most recently and because of their larger communities got hit by the saltbus and spread all through the forums. Or, if you came to all those same conclusions entirely of your own, then that just makes this the whiniest tier list I've ever seen... I led with the nice one. Just being honest not tearing it up for no reason, don't be insulted mate I'm just saying I just see no rhyme or reason to so many choices other than "in order of most bitched about" haha

Who are the legit flat out bad characters you are talking about? And as far as Brood Mother goes, she's got some pretty glaring whiffing issues. I would actually love if someone came in here and changed my mind on Brood Mother because I love the character a ton. She's got some really good stuff but some of the problems she has keeps her from being tier 2 imo. Finally, as far the tier list being whiny, I don't have a horse in the race sort to speak. I have one character and one character only that I could upplay/downplay and that's Leatherface. Everything else is objective to me. If you think it's a whiny tier list, whatever, no skin off my back, just know that I'm telling you it's not.

 

[God Confirm]

Who are the legit flat out bad characters you are talking about? And as far as Brood Mother goes, she's got some pretty glaring whiffing issues. I would actually love if someone came in here and changed my mind on Brood Mother because I love the character a ton. She's got some really good stuff but some of the problems she has keeps her from being tier 2 imo. Finally, as far the tier list being whiny, I don't have a horse in the race sort to speak. I have one character and one character only that I could upplay/downplay and that's Leatherface. Everything else is objective to me. If you think it's a whiny tier list, whatever, no skin off my back, just know that I'm telling you it's not.

you aren't even reading, im clearly saying BM is bad, not good, and much worse than some of the bottom tier characters. How the hell is she a tier above the Venomancer for example, you must rate the Krawler REALLY highly. I'm saying, you may not have a stake in the characters because you don't play none of them, and maybe thats exactly why this list seems to be heavily sculpted by every communities salt instead.... or you just have some serious kneejerk reactions to characters getting rebalanced. No, Tarkatan and Stunt Double are not a tier below Master of Storms lol



I'm just gunna leave this thread, you clearly have your mind made up.

 

[CrazyFingers]

you aren't even reading, im clearly saying BM is bad, not good, and much worse than some of the bottom tier characters. How the hell is she a tier above the Venomancer for example, you must rate the Krawler REALLY highly. I'm saying, you may not have a stake in the characters because you don't play none of them, and maybe thats exactly why this list seems to be heavily sculpted by every communities salt instead.... or you just have some serious kneejerk reactions to characters getting rebalanced. No, Tarkatan and Stunt Double are not a tier below Master of Storms lol



I'm just gunna leave this thread, you clearly have your mind made up.

Okay every single post you have made has contributed literally nothing. It's been "this character greater/less than this character" and nothing more. Actually have a conversation with me instead of talking at me.

 

[God Confirm]

Okay every single post you have made has contributed literally nothing. It's been "this character greater/less than this character" and nothing more. Actually have a conversation with me instead of talking at me.

Okay, I feel like I've been pretty clear about what I've been saying from the very start, but lets try again. I said

"how is this flat out bad character (brood mother) better than actual playable characters like Venomous and Stunt Double?"

this is YOUR list, the onus is on you to answer questions if you gunna make a thread about it, and the only response I got so far is "Brood Mother is a bad character with glaring issues man".

Maybe it wouldn't feel like talking at you if you slowed down a second and read the words properly lol

 

[tafka Djinn]

I've been trying to make TG Raiden work, reading the forums, and dude I still don't feel it. I don't feel like his tool based evaluation winds up leaving him alongside Hunter Predator, let alone MU evaluation having him around HQT. I'm still not saying he's bottom five, but I can't see him in the company you put him with.

 

[Icefyre]

this is YOUR list, the onus is on you to answer questions if you gunna make a thread about it

If he were trying to shove this tier list down our throats as fact, I would agree with you here. But he came at this with the attitude that things can still be adjusted with discussion. The onus is on anybody trying to make any kind of claim here. That means you, too, not just him.

 

[God Confirm]

If he were trying to shove this tier list down our throats as fact, I would agree with you here. But he came at this with the attitude that things can still be adjusted with discussion. The onus is on anybody trying to make any kind of claim here. That means you, too, not just him.

So to contest his explanation-less and highly questionable positioning of a character, I have to write out a thorough explanation as to why I am questioning them? That's not how this works. If you made the list, you explain your reasoning when asked, or don't, and leave people even more unconvinced of your post than before... this isn't a thread about my tier list, I don't need to attach my own just to question some shit I don't understand

 

[Icefyre]

So to contest his explanation-less and highly questionable positioning of a character, I have to write out a thorough explanation as to why I am questioning them? That's not how this works. If you made the list, you explain your reasoning when asked, or don't, and leave people even more unconvinced of your post than before... this isn't a thread about my tier list, I don't need to attach my own just to question some shit I don't understand

It's a dicussion. Questioning positions and asking for explanations is part of the point, so yes, you're not wrong there. But you're insulting the man in order to clearly state that you disagree with certain things. If you feel strongly enough about it to post, and don't give him any reason to change his list, just "I disagree, prove me wrong" isn't furthering the discussion. Both sides of a discussion provide points to talk/debate about.

 

[GOOD DRAGON]

I feel like too many characters have been pilled in to tier 2 that don't have the same match up chart as other characters in that list.

Perhaps have a (+tier 2) and (-tier 2) or even (tier 2 A) and (tier 2 B). Actually how about just scrap the tier thang and have (B+) and (B-)

 

[Dankster Morgan]

I'm just glad to see people finally looking past their Alien PTSD and admitting how bad Tarkatan is. Cage, D'Vorah, and Triborg players can talk all they want about getting nerfed, Tarkatan is what actually getting "nerfed hard" means. He was a terribly designed character and probably had to go especially with armor not launching for one bar anymore, but this was waaaaay extra what they've done to him. I don't wanna complain too much because he was busted, it's just not fair imo how he got hit so much harder than the other characters who were top tier with him pre patch. Good night sweet prince I will find you on the other side.

 

[God Confirm]

It's a dicussion. Questioning positions and asking for explanations is part of the point, so yes, you're not wrong there. But you're insulting the man in order to clearly state that you disagree with certain things. If you feel strongly enough about it to post, and don't give him any reason to change his list, just "I disagree, prove me wrong" isn't furthering the discussion. Both sides of a discussion provide points to talk/debate about.

Really?

"You really think the Krawler is better than all that extra combo damage, and dot's from so many buttons and the 14% throw? You really think the Krawler is better than Tarkatan having one of the best mids and best armors in the entire game?"

I'm just asking some questions, how much more detail than that do I have to go into before my question is qualified to deserve an answer by your specifications? And yeah, I don't see rhyme nor reason to some of this deadset outlandish tiering, the list genuinely looks it was sculpted by too much time listening to the nerfsalt on TYM, and I'm just calling it how I see it, but maybe an explanation would convince me otherwise tho... Ronin is in the same tier as Master Of Storms and Hat Trick lol, do I gotta provide an explanation to question that? Or can I just ask... WHY? I don't have to post all the reasons I think Ronin is better than Master of Storms to question the tierings here, that's ridiculous, and once again... thats not how this works. You made a thread, you want to tell people your opinion, well then do so.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

That's because his is characters only. Mine is a bloody full 100 variation tier list. ALSO! My time on TYM isn't why I have those characters where I have them. If you could maybe explain why you think they don't belong where they instead of going "You have X under X? Yea okay, sure" you could actually add to the conversation ya know?

Well I don't know 100 variations matchup charts or even all characters but I have a pretty good grasp on who does well against who as a character.

 

[Dankster Morgan]

The only major issue I have is that Special Forces is way too low. She shouldn't be lower than MOS Ermac when she basically does what he does but way safer and better, definitely shouldn't be lower than Unbreakable, Thunder God(safer and better), Ferra/Torr, D'Vorah, or Kung Lao. Thunder God and her should basically just swap places lol.

 

[sn_meruem]

Ful auto 1st ... ok m8. Like are you just judging by tools/ mu's/ tournaments or what ?

 

[CrazyFingers]

The only major issue I have is that Special Forces is way too low. She shouldn't be lower than MOS Ermac when she basically does what he does but way safer and better, definitely shouldn't be lower than Unbreakable, Thunder God(safer and better), Ferra/Torr, D'Vorah, or Kung Lao. Thunder God and her should basically just swap places lol.

I'll be taking a once over of the whole tier list when I get home. Never gonna get it 100% right on the first try.

 

[CrazyFingers]

Ful auto 1st ... ok m8. Like are you just judging by tools/ mu's/ tournaments or what ?

MU's