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Discussion CrazyFinger's New and Improved Tier List (Now Completely In Order!)

x TeeJay o

Canary Cry Gapless Pressure
She does the exact same shit except she has


HTBS
The tracking shot is seriously fucking stupid lol
Safe PLUS 50/50's
Amor breaking setups into a drone setup
Corner game is legit one of the best.
Invincible meterless plus 34 on block wakeup
Did I mention the tracking shit is plus on block? Lol yeah dat


Also demo got nerfed. Not 100% but I think SF gets better meterless damage now. I get 35-39% meterless into a drone shot. 35/36 without divekick, up to 40% with divekick

You think people are sleeping on unbreakable ? This character is stooooooopid
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
She does the exact same shit except she has


HTBS
The tracking shot is seriously fucking stupid lol
Safe PLUS 50/50's
Amor breaking setups into a drone setup
Corner game is legit one of the best.
Invincible meterless plus 34 on block wakeup
Did I mention the tracking shit is plus on block? Lol yeah dat


Also demo got nerfed. Not 100% but I think SF gets better meterless damage now. I get 35-39% meterless into a drone shot. 35/36 without divekick, up to 40% with divekick

You think people are sleeping on unbreakable ? This character is stooooooopid
hmm...interesting.
 

Saltea Moonspell

"Mind Over Matter" I dont mind, and X dont matter
Hat Trick is at a pretty low point in that tier, i haven't put it in order but i probably will at some point. I feel like we're underrating him a bit. He's got pretty good Oki but he certainly has a struggle ahead of him.
I wont get into the "overrating/underrating" Topic but I will say one thing, the oki you speak of gives no advantage. Its a week gimmicks, without real frame advantage to respect. On ex hat call back you armor through and it goes to shit. The only reason I still play HT is because i stepped down from competitive play and I play only for fun. Like once Foxy said, he needed a Ronin treatment or he will always be a joke. It took me a year to realize that.
 

TheGangstaFace

Psn, Xbox, Twitter: TheGangstaFace
She does the exact same shit except she has


HTBS
The tracking shot is seriously fucking stupid lol
Safe PLUS 50/50's
Amor breaking setups into a drone setup
Corner game is legit one of the best.
Invincible meterless plus 34 on block wakeup
Did I mention the tracking shit is plus on block? Lol yeah dat


Also demo got nerfed. Not 100% but I think SF gets better meterless damage now. I get 35-39% meterless into a drone shot. 35/36 without divekick, up to 40% with divekick

You think people are sleeping on unbreakable ? This character is stooooooopid
Well the wakeup is weird. It's meterless and you can get it off in time but at the same time you can get hit. It's just more in your favor. You forgot to mention you can use the drone to get out of pressure for free
 

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
I will preface this by saying, Inferno and Stunt Double could be higher (Inferno has a good base toolset and Stunt Double isn't complete trash possibly) I'll go character by character for ya.

Lackey
So what can I say about Lackey. He's got meh armor. He has no great plus frames. Sure he has good buttons and good damage but he has so many anti-synergistic things in his toolset it's baffling. He is clearly supposed to be up close and personal, yet his command grab throws the opponent full screen. Basically what this comes down to is that, Lackey doesn't have the correct tools to be playing this game. He has a great basic toolset that has potential to be a real formidable force in this game but his dirt just isn't strong enough to compete which causes him to suffer in a good amount of matchups.

Warrior
See my explanation earlier in this thread. Also, just because you have a safe wakeup doesn't mean you aren't trash. That notion is not logical.

Marksman/Outlaw
Outlaw is a garbage fire. Marksman is a slightly less hot garbage fire. They have gaps everywhere. One of them is unsafe as hell, the other one relies too much upon stamina to make himself safe which in turn makes him unsafe for a large amount of the match. Marksman's "zoning" is trash, Outlaw gets zoned out absurdly easily. The character has one okay mid and okay damage. His mixups are laughable (granted, i guarantee you everyone on of you has been hit by the new slow overhead at least 10 times if you've played against the character enough) They just don't have any good or even decent tools to be competing in the game.

Heavy Weapons
Oh boy. The odd one out of the Jax variations. He got hit, absurdly hard by the stamina changes. He lost his easy midscreen hitconfirms and is now having to be reliant on either not run canceling for his hitconfirms or having to link into S3 which is a link that is so tight it makes coals into diamonds. And his "pressure" is the worst of the three variations. Granted he can mix you and cancel pokes into specials and make you respect his stuff with staggers but like...he has terrible armor, he doesn't have the purple wave to help with his mind games. He gets zoned out. Any bad matchup that the other two have is increased by a ton on Heavy Weapons. The character is just bad.

Pretty Lady
The character that I am definitely most qualified to talk about in Tier 4. Pretty Lady is a zoner with some pretty bad projectiles. Every saw has terrible recovery frames on whiff so you jump one saw and you get in almost for free. His up close game is pretty bad considering his lack of mids and his lack of good follow up to his frame trap with EX Up saw. He has terrible whiffing issues on almost half the cast. So basically what you have is a zoner who can't zone as well as the other zoners in the game and doesnt have an up close game to compensate for it. It's just a mess.

Venomous
Venomous is weird. This is a chip/tick damage character...who's chip damage is unsafe. Venomous has some good armor and some good damage sure, however, the issues that plague d'vorah are all there and Venomous has little to nothing to make up for that. It's basically variationless d'vorah with a little more damage and a decent armored move. Very lack luster.

Tarkatan
This character got gutted. When patch day came, I figured he might be like mid tier afterwards but nope, this character is just a flaming pile now. He is completely unsafe on everything he does (EVERYTHING) He just has way too much risk with very little reward. He's just a bad design with TERRIBLE frame data now. Poor Baraka.

Kenjutsu
This one won't take much to explain. His push is bad. His armor is bad. He's got 50/50's but one half is non-hitconfirmable and unsafe and the other one is harder to hit confirm and is unsafe if not hitconfirmed. He's got the same whiff recovery problems the other two have but not the same things to make up for it *shrug*
I agree that having a safe wakeup doesn't preclude a character from being bad, especially when they're completely and easily counterable.

Now, after reading your new ordered tier list, I'm about to do something I've literally never done. I'm going to up play my main, Venomous, because I'm not sure she's actually bottom 5. Venomous is definitely down there, but despite all her design flaws and your accurate assessment of her playing like a higher damaging variationless D'vorah with ok (if counter intuitive) armor, she's too functional and her normals are too strong for her to be quite that bad.

I think one of your misconceptions is that she is a chip/tick damage character. Before it was nerfed, I'd have agreed with you, but the spray has been nerfed far too many times at this point. At this point, a block string into spray does maybe 2.5% more damage than most other block strings into specials. It's not really anything special, and since you'll pretty much never land enough pokes in the neutral in a short enough time frame to get a meaningful stack bonus, her poison is really more flavor than anything else. The supposedly central tenets of this variation are just minor features outside of combos, which is just sad honestly.

In my opinion, she's more of a grappler that doesn't have a command grab. Her grabs also add a single stack of venom, leading to a minimum of 13.5% damage per throw. They certainly add up, but more importantly, allow for strike/throw mixups. As you've stated Venomous has good damage, though it's mostly off her high strings and f44. In the corner, any of those can lead to 46-49% meterless damage or 30% restands, and this is on top of the standard overhead/low corner set play.

Is it just me, or did I try and highlight the strengths of Venomous and still make her sound bad? Feels like my whole defense is that even though she's poorly designed, she has a good mid, no serious whiffing issues, and is pretty good in the corner. Bottom 5 it is then :/
 

Dankster Morgan

It is better this way
I'll try to go in order so please don't lynch me guys. But no way I'm doing variations lol that's too much

Tier Juan (they are the most dominant characters, comfortable in most situations):
Shinnok
Sonya
Mileena
Ermac
Jason
Sektor
Smoke
Liu Kang
Jacqui
Predator
Takeda
Quan

Tier to(very comparable to the first tier but either their strengths are less potent or their weaknesses are more exploitable):
Raiden
Sub-Zero
Tremor
Reptile
Scorpion
Kitana
Kenshi
Tanya
Kano
Cassie
Kung Jin

Tier tree(good characters with merit to choosing them but they have unavoidable and inevitable shortcomings):
Ferra/Torr
D'Vorah
Alien
Kung Lao
Leatherface
BRC
Jax
Kotal
Goro
Cage
Cyber Sub-Zero
Cyrax

Tier for(Erron Black isn't garbage he just has no reason to exist in this game):
Erron
 
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God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
I find the easiest to way to see if these tier lists are even bothering worth reading is full is just checking the bottom tier first

Venomous, Tarkatan & SD are all a tier below Hat Trick, Brood Mother, and MoS?


Okay.




You seem like someone who has spent far too much time on TYM listening to all the HoneyBee/Tweedy/whoever "dead character" hyperboles on here after their character was rebalanced, instead of actually playing the game. Just because more people complain about a character being weak doesn't make it a worse character, just means the playerbase for that character was higher before the nerfs. Which is a hilarious in a way, but also very true.
 
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God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
I'll try to go in order so please don't lynch me guys. But no way I'm doing variations lol that's too much

Tier Juan:
Shinnok
Sonya
Mileena
Ermac
Jason
Sektor
Smoke
Liu Kang
Jacqui
Predator
Takeda
Quan

Tier to:
Raiden
Sub-Zero
Tremor
Reptile
Scorpion
Kitana
Kenshi
Tanya
Kano
Cassie
Kung Jin

Tier tree:
Ferra/Torr
D'Vorah
Alien
Kung Lao
Leatherface
BRC
Jax
Kotal
Goro
Cage
Cyber Sub-Zero
Cyrax

Tier for:
Erron
Now THIS is a good tier list to me. Two people are almost never going to agree on everything, but the amount of things I disagree with I could count on 1 hand even missing a few fingers, and those things are no more than 1 tier away from where they should be.
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Now THIS is a good tier list to me. Two people are almost never going to agree on everything, but the amount of things I disagree with I could count on 1 hand even missing a few fingers, and those things are no more than 1 tier away from where they should be.
That's because his is characters only. Mine is a bloody full 100 variation tier list. ALSO! My time on TYM isn't why I have those characters where I have them. If you could maybe explain why you think they don't belong where they instead of going "You have X under X? Yea okay, sure" you could actually add to the conversation ya know?
 

TyCarter35

Bonafide Jax scrub
Solid list overall. I feel like u could switch Ravenous and ethereal. Hellfire is probably on the lower end of tier 1 for the fact that he doesn't lose any MU's and wins a fair amount which I can safely say a fair share of the scorpion community can agree on. Sure he's held back by poor defensive options tho how he handles himself being pressured is dependent on the player's defense. Drunken Master honestly feels like tier 4 since his base toolset is meh. Drunken state is really eh while the fact that he only thrives only when drunk and the fact that he's always on a 10 second timer doesn't help him either along with the fact that he's really more screwed than Bartitsu and Dragon's Breath fullscreen against zoning doesn't help either since at least his other two variations can at least absorb projectiles with their special. It's on Kenjutsu/Lackey level bad
 

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
Why is Cryomancer so low down?
It comes down to his lack of tools in the neutral hurts him a lot in MU's. Before the patch Cryomancer had some decent staggers, had insane damage and could in general, play his game to a fairly decent degree (they didn't need to change him at all to be good in this patch imo) but now he's got worse frames on block and is generally a lot less safe. Granted the man can still mix you to death but it's really that lack of neutral that makes me feel like he's that low.
 

Eddy Wang

Skarlet scientist
Hat-trick - This was an outsider pick. I don't trust his frame data - at all. He has a safe launcher that he can choose to use off pokes or strings or not.
This is an example of what looks like when you have less experience in that MU.
Don't let anyone lie to you, Hat Trick is easily tier 4 in this game.
Call back is not safe and can be poked in between, and in order to use it, he has to place it first, which placing a hat trap is also not that great being at -6 all times.

His frame data is bollocks, a character with the slower walkspeed in the game has terrible pressure game, non existent backdash can't do well vs ranged strings, can't space on the ground, has a mid and a overhead that whiffs on neutral crouch characters is not that good.
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
That's because his is characters only. Mine is a bloody full 100 variation tier list. ALSO! My time on TYM isn't why I have those characters where I have them. If you could maybe explain why you think they don't belong where they instead of going "You have X under X? Yea okay, sure" you could actually add to the conversation ya know?
You don't have any explanation as to why they are there to begin with so the onus is kind of on you to give an explanation first mate

Also, if you couldn't handle doing one with 100 variations... then don't do it. It doesn't mean I'm gonna think it makes your list as good as the guy who just but got the order right... (IMO)