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Discussion CrazyFinger's New and Improved Tier List (Now Completely In Order!)

STRYKIE

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
rainuS said:
Hellfire should be Tier1 hes too good:

-safe pressure
-safe 50/50
-meter building
-great damage anywhere on the screen
-flame aura which is good for couterpoke, AA and so
-antizoning
-amazing anti air
-low profiles

What else do you need?
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Scorpion is serviceable in these areas, but not enough so that it would give him a matchup chart comparable to the rest of tier 1.

I mean, nobody is arguing with Ninjutsu being in tier 2 and I'm not even entirely sure if Hellfire has a better matchup chart than that. Hellfire might be the scarier variation to deal with under optimal conditions but the frequency of those conditions don't come often. What Ninjutsu does well, it can do much more consistently across many more matchups.
ThaShiveGeek said:
Why isn't Warlock Quan Chi Tier 4?
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Quan's base tools are still good enough to dish dirt out by themselves in some matchups, which Warlock still has access to. Sure all the Warlock exclusive specials are now pretty much garbage but if for whatever reason you were locked into Warlock you'd still have a much easier time initiating shit than most if not all of tier 4 (my only doubts would be variations that IMO also don't belong in tier 4).

Irrelevant =/= Totally awful.
 
STRYKIE

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
omooba said:
what do u mean optimal conditions
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Having Flame Aura activation ready, can only be done once every eight seconds barring being hit in the meantime.
Having absolutely full stamina ready to properly convert from certain normals (EX Spear is not a viable substitute for this for F4 and B3 as it does not jail on block from either of them), making sure your D4 hit close enough to actually get a guaranteed check etc. A lot of times the only normal that reaches is F3 and you can't even FBRC it for plus frames/conversion anymore since you just used the necessary stamina running in with it.

Among other things.

Overall there's a bunch of idiosyncrasies beyond the surface that people don't take into consideration with Hellfire.
 
Second Saint

Second Saint

A man with too many names.
False God Confirmed said:
my man, you should be making tier lists
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Nah, I have a policy of not talking about anything unless I'm absolutely sure about what I'm saying and have done the work to be qualified. When it comes to BM and V, I'm confident in my opinions because they've been thought, rethought, examined, and revised some more over the course of most of this game. I don't even speak on SQ most of the time because, despite my knowing exactly what she is capable of, I don't have the execution to play her and test what I know in a real setting. I can absolutely gauge the strength of 2 variations that I've spent a ton of time with but 98 others that I've barely put a fraction of the time into? No, too much would be guess work.


CrazyFingers said:
Thank you for explaining this in an amount of detail that i probably wouldn't be able to quite get down. I was going to get to it but I'm a bit busy at the moment and away from home. Thanks a ton!
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Any time. Whenever there is a discussion of Venomous or Brood Mother, I'll be there with an essay about why somebody is wrong or dissolving some misconceptions.
 
omooba

omooba

fear the moobs
STRYKIE said:
Having Flame Aura activation ready, can only be done once every eight seconds barring being hit in the meantime.
Having absolutely full stamina ready to properly convert from certain normals (EX Spear is not a viable substitute for this for F4 and B3 as it does not jail on block from either of them), making sure your D4 hit close enough to actually get a guaranteed check etc. A lot of times the only normal that reaches is F3 and you can't even FBRC it for plus frames/conversion anymore since you just used the necessary stamina running in with it.

Among other things.

Overall there's a bunch of idiosyncrasies beyond the surface that people don't take into consideration with Hellfire.
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1st of you don't need full stamina to properly convert of anything. 2ndly i disagree on exspear not being a viable substitute especially cus they don't know if you'll do ex spear.You rarely need flame aura and don't have it because usually you use it in a combo. i don't understand your point about d4. i agree that comboing f3 is unlikely which is why i think his neutral sucks but if these are what stops him from being at optimal condition then i don't think it really matters that he's not at optimal condition.
 
STRYKIE

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
omooba said:
1st of you don't need full stamina to properly convert of anything.
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Pre-patch this was true, but with the new stamina costs it's mechanically impossible to start a proper run cancel (I don't just mean a dash cancel) without having completely full stamina. Hence why when Raptor played at KIT this past weekend he was only really checking with F2 and B32F2 on the way in. Only times he attempted any run cancel was post combo ender.

Thus, without full stamina, all of his post mixup options on block are unsafe one way or another.

To see what I mean about D4, set the AI to jump backwards after a D4 on hit, it simply isn't possible to run up and jail a F3 afterwards depending on the range it hits.
 
CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Will anyone be able to prove how dominant Jason is supposed to be? He has so little representation, and almost no results, for a character who's frequently being held up as one of the top in the game.

Who will take the challenge :cool:
 
TheGangstaFace

TheGangstaFace

Psn, Xbox, Twitter: TheGangstaFace
CrimsonShadow said:
Will anyone be able to prove how dominant Jason is supposed to be? He has so little representation, and almost no results, for a character who's frequently being held up as one of the top in the game.

Who will take the challenge :cool:
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To be fair who's using him in tournament aside from Sonic? Sonic doesn't even use Sektor all the way and he didn't even use Acidic all the way through tournaments
 
CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
TheGangstaFace said:
I feel like that argument has been beaten into the ground so hard for so long that I'm not gonna bother arguing with it lol. Majority knows that just because everyone and their mother doesn't use a dumb character doesn't mean the character isn't strong as hell
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Which is why I said, it'd be nice to see someone pick him up in tourney and validate the fact that he's supposed to be top.

Given that he doesn't have much representation, I think it'd be neat to see. This shouldn't be a controversial statement.
 
CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
tafka Djinn said:
Nobody really used vanilla DF Liu, or Summoner Quan either. And it was how long before anybody won a major as Cyrax?
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Cyrax had a ton of representation and placings for years. It's not a great comparison. And no one used Summoner Quan Chi? What?

But yeah, I don't think it's a crime to want to see more people playing Jason.
 
omooba

omooba

fear the moobs
STRYKIE said:
Pre-patch this was true, but with the new stamina costs it's mechanically impossible to start a proper run cancel (I don't just mean a dash cancel) without having completely full stamina. Hence why when Raptor played at KIT this past weekend he was only really checking with F2 and B32F2 on the way in. Only times he attempted any run cancel was post combo ender.

Thus, without full stamina, all of his post mixup options on block are unsafe one way or another.

To see what I mean about D4, set the AI to jump backwards after a D4 on hit, it simply isn't possible to run up and jail a F3 afterwards depending on the range it hits.
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b1,2 dash cancel on block into b1,2 run cancel on hit into 2,1,4. this is a thing you can currently do. you don't need full stamina you just need most of it
 
tafka Djinn

tafka Djinn

One for three off the roof
CrimsonShadow said:
Cyrax had a ton of representation and placings for years. It's not a great comparison.

But yeah, I don't think it's a crime to want to see more people playing Jason.
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That bit was more to preemptively stop that line of thought in case it came back around from somebody, hopefully it's for nothing.

And yeah, I would like to see more people use him too, but it seemed like you were initially implying he wasn't being used because he was weak.
 
The_Tile

The_Tile

Your hole is mine!
Okay, after quite a bit of thinking there's 3 things I'd like to talk about.

1. Sorcerer - After a LOT of thinking I don't actually think Sorcerer is tier 1, I think he's the best character of tier 2. As strong as his tools are in some matchups there are a handful of MUs where his best tool, the armor portal, doesn't really mean shit. While he still has the other two spells, the chip and meter drain portal just aren't enough to hold the character together without the armor against certain characters. He's very similar to GM in that regard and I think he should be tiered just above him at the top of tier 2. He's still dumb as fuck though.

2. Dragon's Fire - I've pocketed Dragon's Fire for pretty much as long as I've mained Quan and I think he's the strongest he's ever been now, besides when he had that infinite lol. He reminds me of Tempest Lao when he was a jack of all trades character. DF has a 6f punisher, possibly the best pressure in the game, possibly the best armor in the game (you have to guess on his WU), good pokes, good zoning and a pretty strong neutral. If he has any bad MUs I haven't encountered them yet and on paper I don't think I ever will, id definitely place him in tier 1.

3. Hish-Qu-Ten - Now id love for someone to tell me this characters bad MUs cause I've never played him myself, just against him. Thing is though this character has the best zoning in the game (yes better than Quan now with the changes to the stamina mechanics), very good pressure (he can still get 3 reps and ends everything safely with low laser or one of his various safe strings), and in my opinion the best neutral game in MKX. The lasers are absolutely insane now with the system changes and cover so many options on their own, but then he has one of the, if not the, best D4s in the game and the only downside to it is that it's unsafe, which it's not in HQT. He actually gets mind games off it. On top of this he has B2, a couple of decent mids to stop people mashing pokes under B2 and disc to cover any mistakes he makes. This characters neutral has no holes whatsoever and he has good damage, pressure and buttons on top of that. An absolutely insane character once again that just hasn't saw the light of day yet.

Those are the only gripes I've got right now and kudos for trying to order all of the variations, I think youre actually the first to even try.
 
CrimsonShadow

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
tafka Djinn said:
but it seemed like you were initially implying he wasn't being used because he was weak.
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Not at all. But I think it's a fair challenge :)

Plus, it's the only way to really validate the beliefs. Remember "Cryomancer is top?" -- that was until people started trying to compete with him, and ran up against stiffer competition. Then opinions changed. So it's just nice to see things tested out in tourney.
 
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CrazyFingers

CrazyFingers

The Power of Lame Compels You
The_Tile said:
Okay, after quite a bit of thinking there's 3 things I'd like to talk about.

1. Sorcerer - After a LOT of thinking I don't actually think Sorcerer is tier 1, I think he's the best character of tier 2. As strong as his tools are in some matchups there are a handful of MUs where his best tool, the armor portal, doesn't really mean shit. While he still has the other two spells, the chip and meter drain portal just aren't enough to hold the character together without the armor against certain characters. He's very similar to GM in that regard and I think he should be tiered just above him at the top of tier 2. He's still dumb as fuck though.

2. Dragon's Fire - I've pocketed Dragon's Fire for pretty much as long as I've mained Quan and I think he's the strongest he's ever been now, besides when he had that infinite lol. He reminds me of Tempest Lao when he was a jack of all trades character. DF has a 6f punisher, possibly the best pressure in the game, possibly the best armor in the game (you have to guess on his WU), good pokes, good zoning and a pretty strong neutral. If he has any bad MUs I haven't encountered them yet and on paper I don't think I ever will, id definitely place him in tier 1.

3. Hish-Qu-Ten - Now id love for someone to tell me this characters bad MUs cause I've never played him myself, just against him. Thing is though this character has the best zoning in the game (yes better than Quan now with the changes to the stamina mechanics), very good pressure (he can still get 3 reps and ends everything safely with low laser or one of his various safe strings), and in my opinion the best neutral game in MKX. The lasers are absolutely insane now with the system changes and cover so many options on their own, but then he has one of the, if not the, best D4s in the game and the only downside to it is that it's unsafe, which it's not in HQT. He actually gets mind games off it. On top of this he has B2, a couple of decent mids to stop people mashing pokes under B2 and disc to cover any mistakes he makes. This characters neutral has no holes whatsoever and he has good damage, pressure and buttons on top of that. An absolutely insane character once again that just hasn't saw the light of day yet.

Those are the only gripes I've got right now and kudos for trying to order all of the variations, I think youre actually the first to even try.
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I'll be looking over the list again when I'm feeling a little better. Right now it feels like a molten jackhammer is in my brain.
 
Trauma_and_Pain

Trauma_and_Pain

Filthy Casual
False God Confirmed said:
So to contest his explanation-less and highly questionable positioning of a character, I have to write out a thorough explanation as to why I am questioning them?
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You're damn right you do. Otherwise you aren't making an argument, you're just saying he's wrong with no reasons at all.

If someone were to claim that 2 + 2 = 5, and you know they're wrong, you should be able to explain why it's wrong. Otherwise all you're doing is saying you have a feeling they're wrong but don't actually know or have evidence.
 
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